- cross-posted to:
- becomeme@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- becomeme@sh.itjust.works
The idea that we are entering an era of techno-feudalism that will be worse than capitalism is chilling and controversial. We asked former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis to elucidate this idea, explain how we got here, and map out some alternatives.
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Clearly, y’all need to play more Shadowrun. 🤘🏽🤷🏼♂️
Snatcher megacd
To refer to this as feudalism gives an impression that capitalism functions effectively and we are transitioning away from it; however, in reality, we are merely progressing into the advanced stages of the same system. Let us simply acknowledge that it is indeed capitalism.
Capitalism is just feudalism with more steps, of course as capitalism completes those steps it will feel like feudalism. Wealth can’t grow infinitely yet in the attempt to do so our basic needs have been withheld from those who need.
I’d say capitalism is an evolution of feudalism that was facilitated by the industrial evolution. However, the two systems share most of the negative aspects, and in later stages of capitalism differences become increasingly negligible.
It’s meant to be an evolution of feudalism as the people creating capitalism are effectively the remnants of power from feudal society. There could be absolutely no industry and it would still be the system the non-royal but powerful would select.
Look at the transition from the articles of confederation to the US constitution and the focus on the creation of currency in article 1. The “rights” people talk about were pushed for by the opposition to the constitution. The US constitution created effectively a capitalist version of the British empire and is analogous to the house of commons/lords/king. There was no term for the presidency, it could be for life and federal senators weren’t even voted for.
I’d argue it’s effectively just an iteration of feudalism.
Well, specifically what changed was that under feudalism power in society was determined solely by birth. Either you were born a noble or you weren’t. Capitalism was rich merchants overthrowing the nobles and democratizing the oppression of the workers. I do agree that for the most part it is an iteration of the same system though.
In capitalism as long as there isn’t a way to keep wealth from passing down each generation it is effectively just like nobles. I don’t see much of a difference between the two if both are systems of inheriting massive land or assets that allow you to exploit the lower classes to perpetuate your status.
I agree, late stage capitalism starts to look a lot like feudalism because all the wealth ends up being concentrated in the hands of a few people, but there are some differences in the way the two systems function.
Totally agree. I’m not trying to say terms should have no meaning but that the difficulty distinguishing the two can be pretty easy because of how similar they are.
One major alternative is to become ungovernable
Factually! With Adam Conover just did an episode with this guy, if podcasts are more your speed! Good listen!
Silicon Serfdom?
No that’s still capitalism. Capitalism is still the problem. To call it anything else is apologetics, the core issue is that the private ownership of the means of production leads to a concentration of power in the hands of precisely the wrong kind of people after selecting for and reinforcing the most selfish behaviors in them. It then allows them to essentially usurp whatever form of government exists.
There is a difference however. The techno feudalists are no longer about the means of production. Instead they increasingly show rent-seeking behaviour. Businesses looking to own “market places” and becoming brokers of other people’s services is a techni feudalist trend. Take Amazon for example. They sell top spots in their search directly to business customers. An app store monopoly is more akin to land ownership than classic factory capitalism.
Problem I have with calling this a feudal arrangement is a lot of serfs actually had family rights to their land/means of production under land tenure agreements. It’s more the notion of private ownership of land and production that has led to these private technology increasingly mediating more of our lives. I’ve seen the concept of technofeudalism used in good ways but the overall thing is capitalism and they are more elements of feudal type arrangement within that.
Precisely this. The few rights that feudal peasants did have are being ferreted out as “inefficiencies”
okay but land ownership and rent seeking are inherent, inevitable parts of capitalism. Even Smith talked about how rent-seeking is an unavoidable outcome of a system where one person can own what another needs, and about how in order to succeed capitalism will require some way of discouraging or taxing rent-seeking. “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed and demand a rent even for its natural produce.” This isn’t a new phenomenon and it’s not a return to pre-capitalism, it’s capitalism doing what we all new it was going to do from the beginning.
While I appreciate the funny critique of Varoufakis, this is the same point that another Jacobin author makes against the idea of techno-feudalism.
https://jacobin.com/2023/10/cloud-capitalism-technofeudalism-serfs-cloud-big-data-yanis-varoufakis
Boy that article was a whole lot of nothing.
It was fairly fragmented but hardly a whole lot of nothing.
sure fucking feels that way
kill all techbros
You’re saying that capitalism isn’t serfdom?
Yes.
I’ve been seeing Yanis pop up a bit more recently, seems like he’s selling a book. Not complaining, could be good. I will give it a read and see if this really is a “new thing” or a new label stuck on an old thing.
I am deeply distrustful of the guy just coming out of nowhere and getting so big so quick. Something’s not quite right with that.
Give it a year I’ll bet they’ll be involved in some nasty shit. If not, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
I don’t think he’s coming out of nowhere, he became well known in left circles in Europe when he became the Greek Finance Minister in 2015 (for the left-wing Syriza party) and attempted to defend Greece against predatory European lenders. He’s written several books and has taught at many universities.
Oh okay, I just know them as the guy who keeps showing up in youtube videos, didn’t realize he had a history outside of that.
What a load of hogwash.
I understand the railing against rent seeking. It’s my land too, so why am I paying for it, and all. I mean, I disagree with the notion, but I understand it.
This is entirely different. Cloud services haven’t been built for nothing - they are massive investment projects and like anything else we build that many use, capital allows us to distribute the cost. Yes there’s a profit motive and one could argue against it or not, but these services didn’t exist as natural resources that the cloud-lords dominated by force and then rented back to us. They built new lands and asked if anybody want to come live there.
Wait. Capitalism isn’t silicon serfdom?
Silicon isn’t required.
No, it has to be from the silicon valley, otherwise it’s just sparkling oppression.
Aha. Thanks for making the distinction for me.
Hey it’s late stage right?
One of the things not addressed in this interview is how the ideology of libertarianism is central to the transition from markets to fiefdoms. All the big tech bros are huge libertarians and that’s not an accident.
And I do think this is a new phenomena unlike classic capitalism. Marx thought that a post-scarcity society would mean more leisure, he didn’t anticipate that that leisure was just another source of value to exploit. Think of reddit selling it’s “content” to an AI company. That content wasn’t produced by coerced labor paid unfairly, it was produced by voluntary labor paid nothing.
Marx didn’t anticipate information technology. Because of IT, we are moving to a new regime of humanity. The automation of action is part of the reason, but the most important is the ability of any group of people to communicate. The control of broadcast underpins the prior structures of power. Now, anyone can reach everyone, and we are watching the power of the state erode in the rise of fascism globally.
Yeah. I think social media should be seen as virtual worlds that created new types of “alternative nation” that are controlled by these “cloud capitalists”. They decide the rules of conduct and eCommerce and the shape of society.
We don’t serfdom well. Rich techbros can expect feces in their food and spittle in their drink, and eventially a guillotine party. Maybe armies of patrol drones will slow it down but the opportunities for mischief will me exciting.
FDR’s New Deal was to prevent a communist revolution. And here we are, again.
Now serfdom would work if they recognized people need bare minimums that keep them warm, fed and comfortable. But aristocrats always take thr serfs for granted.
Cloud serfs and cloud proles pick up your digital pitchforks and techno-rampage!!! 🤑
Not sure if I understand this correctly:
Cloud capital is fundamentally different because it can be copied infinitely like a digital copy and requires exponentially less labor. This is different from owning and operating a factory (requires labor) or owning or renting land (limited). There might still be labor but it’s insignificant and it scales almost infinitely. That is why it’s rent on capitalism. It’s this infinite scalability that is the difference.
You could develop a perfect alternative to amazon, ebay, paypal, facebook or google, messaging apps, app stores: The cloud capital isn’t in the software or the servers, it’s in the account network. Everyone can theoretically move services but that incurs costs by loosing your connections in the network. And marketing makes it so that the majority of people won’t do it. So once the network is established it extracts wealth without being productive.
Another example would be paypal - they take something like 1.5% to 3% of all online transactions, practically a tax on all consumer transactions.
And you use digital services all the time and are increasingly dependent on them. And they extract wealth without them having to produce content or advertising, they just rent their ad spaces.
AI generation and robotics will become much more advanced in the coming decades. This too could become cloud capital and wealth extraction without requiring significant labor. Especially once we reach “robots building robots”.
I’m also seeing a power grab for the means of generation coming. If public learning data has to be licensed especially for AI to learn from them, it will mean that the cloud capitalists will own the generative AIs. In their anger about big AI “stealing muh data”, people will help that IP law will change so that serfs will not be able to use generative AI freely. Maybe LLMs and generative AI are over hyped but they’ve come a long way in just a few years, in one or two decades it could be incredible cloud capital that extracts wealth to no end, without any labor involved at all.
The feudalism bit I’m not sure about - presumably the scale of social media creates not just cloud capital and massive rents, it also creates political power. By subtly shaping how algorithms present content, we are being ruled by algorithms. The content we see makes us think certain things, argue about this and that and distracts us. MAGA is an example of a sub population mostly disconnected from reality and trapped in a prison for the mind. This is political power similar to a serf under a lord. Not sure how well that relates.
He also mentions the global financial system, I imagine that globalization and increasing refinement of “financial products” also serve as a form of cloud capital that is no longer really tethered to real labor. It’s more and more speculative. The central bank constantly prints money and injects it and somehow it ends up in the hands of the cloud capitalists? But that existed before.
Not sure if patents or IP fit into this. And again, not sure if I understand any of this correctly or if I buy any of this. But it’s certainly possible that the scale of certain forms of capital create completely different emergent structures. Even if it’s fundamentally the same mechanisms, technology might turn it into a completely different beast.
He definitely didn’t do a great job explaining this - presumably Yanis Varoufakis wants us to buy his book. That old capitalist trick!
