As a disabled person, I face ableism and ableist language every day. Some people use ableist language without even knowing that it is ableist. I thought it would be good for folks to take a look at the attached BBC article and expand their perspectives a bit.
The demand for racism and discrimination exceeds the supply, so people have to create it out of thin air
I just don’t get it. If someone tells me that a word or phrase I’m using is offensive, I’m going to apologize and stop using it. Why is this so hard? Why would people double down on wanting to offend others?
But the fact is, discussions about the negative effect of a word such as “dumb” – a term originally denoting a deaf person who did not use speech, but which now functions as slang for something brutish, uninteresting or of low intelligence
dumb (adj.)
Old English dumb, of persons, “mute, silent, refraining from speaking or unable to speak,” from Proto-Germanic *dumbaz “dumb, dull,” which is perhaps from PIE *dheubh- “confusion, stupefaction, dizziness,”Now, as for actual discussion to be had, unfortunately our language is entirely coded in slights towards different groups of people. In calling someone “a sinister villain who’s a part of a cabal”, I’ve called them a left (handed) farmer who is Jewish.
At some point we do need to accept that these negative words, which are at their fundamentals, slights to certain groups of people, have taken on a new meaning, and that their misuse as slights against those people only really applies contextually. I do think that terms like “stupid” and “idiot” have achieved that level of shift.
Feel free to disagree with me of course, I’m not here to tell you you or your experience is wrong, and I’m more than happy to have an actual discussion on this. ❤️
I agree with you. In fact I had no idea dumb used to mean “a deaf person”. This word has a new meaning. This is obviously besides the fact that the word dumb is demeaning in today’s definition, so there’s that.
Agreed, but for words like that to make such a shift, there was a period where the words were still super offensive and used anyways. And if we are more enlightened now, we should have less of these words going forward. Like I think we’ve largely stopped such a transformation of the word “retard(ed)”.
I personally have completely nixed the R word from my vocabulary. I agree that there was a time when some terms were super offensive, or the history of a term is one leaded in negative use towards marginalized peoples. I’m just not convinced that these terms in particular are ones I need to care about.
If you’ve stopped using the r word because it’s offensive, that’s great! Really. Hopefully this discussion (like the linked article) will convince you that there are other terms commonly used that are just as offensive. If you can find alternatives to the r word, then you can also probably find alternatives to “deaf” and “stupid”, for example. Regardless, I appreciate that you’re trying!
This isn’t a new discussion I’ve seen, and it’s something I’ve dealt with internally myself. It’s also not as though this is a final answer. I do try to evade these words where I can, but generally I don’t think they’re harmful enough for me to “swear off” so to speak, if that makes sense? I’m not so dull as to say it’s “a personal choice” - that stuff’s just a cop-out for choosing the worst options, but I think that simply suggesting that some people may be offended by certain terms is enough to lend people to change their biases in terminology; or at least it is for me haha
Thanks for the good natured response. I appreciate that in this thread, given how intense some people seem to be.
I’m autistic, and so I come off pretty blunt sometimes. I am really passionate about disability justice, but blasting people just hardens their position and makes them unwilling to listen. I’m glad that you weren’t offended! :)
Now, as for actual discussion to be had, unfortunately our language is entirely coded in slights towards different groups of people. In calling someone “a sinister villain who’s a part of a cabal”, I’ve called them a left handed
if left handed people were still marginalised your comparison might be valid, but they aren’t so it isn’t.
At some point we do need to accept that these negative words, which are at their fundamentals, slights to certain groups of people, have taken on a new meaning, and that their misuse as slights against those people only really applies contextually.
No we don’t, especially since no, they haven’t
I do think that terms like “stupid” and “idiot” have achieved that level of shift.
you would be wrong
https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/stupid-is-an-ableist-slur-breaking-down-defenses-around-ableist-language-liberating-our-words/I’m not here to tell you you or your experience is wrong,
yet that’s exactly what you are doing.
You should be able to remove a few words from your vocabulary to reduce harm to already marginalised people, without arguing about it or trying to “logic” your way out of it. It isn’t a big ask, but rather the very bare minimum.
Uh, I’d rather good faith discussion instead, actually.
Ad hominem != Good faith IMO
Just noticed you’re using kbin.social. Checks out.
Not the person you were talking to but wait… why… I thought kbin was one of the more chill instances? Have we got a bad reputation in your neck of the woods?
It’s a personal observation I’ve noticed, I go into more detail here if you’re curious.
Thanks, perspective’s a strange thing, to me it always feels like the bad faithers are from the biggest instances but that’s just because of the size of them.
I think some of us who joined kbin before we federated are kind of in a bit of a diy small magazines vibe and don’t really mix it up as much.
I joined because I found the interface so much easier to use than lemmy, and also it has a lot of features like the ability to block domains or instances by myself, and the cool interfacing with mastodon. We also turned out to have transparent finances which is nice.
Although we can see the names of people who upvote and downvote us, Kbin doesn’t seem to federate all downvotes, so I guess we can be kind of oblivious to disapproval from outsiders.
wrt not federating all downvotes, you sure that’s not because the commenter or poster is from an instance that disables downvotes? If they disable downvotes, then all downvotes will only be localized to your instance (i.e. every downvote you’ll see on that comment/post is from kbin.social users, and me, lemmy.ca users)
No, there’s definitely more to it than that. I don’t fully understand, but to give you an example, @ram, here are screenshots of how your comment about kbin above looks to me:
From visiting your instance, not signed in
From my test account at lemmy.world
(All sorted by old). As you can see, the voting is very different viewed from kbin.
I agree with the use of disabilities like blindness and deafness as metaphors for something negative is a hurtful practice.
On the other hand, words that have a very archaic meaning to refer to someone’s condition (that subsequently is replaced with a different definition in common usage), I think it is best if people let go of such old definitions. People should not allow themselves to consider such usage as a slight upon them, unless such phrase was used specifically as a slur against that person.
And that goes for any kind of word. For example, if I use the terms master/slave in a discussion about computer hardware, it’s clear I’m not talking about any enslaved population. To make a fuss about that, to me, is people making things their problem and quite silly.
BBC, giving a lesson in respect and language? (chuckles queerly)
The article is by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Nović
But what’s the platform?
They run nginx.
I mean, what’s the platform this article is on? What site is the article on? If this story was hosted on fox news, people would be sceptical right off the bat.
The site linked is BBC, BBC has a history within the past three years of transphobia. Therefore any message about respect for others is undermined by the fact that the host doesn’t consider certain groups of people worthy of respect.
The platform that hosts your content matters to your messaging.
Didn’t someone really waste time writing an article about statements like “falling on deaf ears” being hurtful? There saved everyone a click.
Why is it hard for you to believe? If someone is telling you that the language you’re using is harmful, is your reaction really to say, basically, that you don’t care and you’re going to continue using it?
I think it all depends on context and wether the person is trying to be mean or condescending. If a person is deaf and I say he’s deaf, I’m not being condescending, I’m simply stating a fact. With all due respect to your opinion, if we follow your logic we will quickly run out of words.
Have you heard the expression “white lies and black truths”? The intent behind “simply stating a fact” can indeed be hurtful.
But I really don’t think we’re going to run out of words. There’s at least a half million in English, and even counting obscure ableist terms, we’re talking about maybe thirty. Pretty small percentage.
That’s exactly the mentality they have.
Any thought that goes contrary to them being perfect turns them into petulant brats that allow them to justify having a hissy fit against the left.
Dude, I’m about as left leaning as it gets. The mental illness comments mentioned in the article, sure, that’s kind of problematic. But statements that are literally just expressions that have been used for probably half a century or more like “falling on deaf ears”. Gimme a break. Find something actually a problem to focus on, like the climate crisis, or the Assault on trans rights in the U.S.
Language changes. We’ve stopped using some expressions because we’ve realized how hurtful they are — the n word, all sorts of slurs related to being LGBTQ2S+, etc. Here’s one more. Doubling down on this is exactly like arguing that you should still be allowed to use the n word because it’s been used as an “expression” for more than half a century.
“If you’re comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That’s the worse word.”
I admit I didn’t read the article, but I can say that with the phrase in question of “fall on deaf ears”, it’s a complicated situation. The phrase is poetic in nature and I’m hesitant to try and erase this particular phrase from modern day. I have fear that there will be an over correction towards being non offensive and that creativity as a result will suffer. As someone who has a fondness for poetic expression, this feels like a “throwing the baby out with the bath water” type of situation.
But what’s great about this is finding new and creative ways to express yourself! “My points fell on rocky ground” — Biblical allusion. “They believed me as if I were Cassandra” - Greek. “My words fell on them like the sun under an umbrella.” If you want to keep the synecdoche, “Their ears weren’t ready to hear me”. There’s opportunities to be really creative and poetic if you’re interested in language as rhetoric!
Colloquially, nobody will blink at “They refused to listen” or “It was like I was talking to a tree”.
I’m about as left leaning as it gets.
not proudly flaunting ableism and refusing to listen to people with the actual lived experience, the way you are, you’re not.
Find something actually a problem to focus on
in other words: fuck disabled people
They’re trolls from Hexbear. They like to label us as ableist and bigots because it makes them feel superior.
Maybe they have alts on hexbear, but these people are from kbin.social and lemmy.ca, so.
I’ve got accounts all over the fediverse (in case one instance goes down or some fascist or tankie admin bans me.)
The give away is the fact that they keep bringing up race. They have been called racists, intolerant, bigots and are butt hurt about it so they’re looking for something to throw back at people to make themselves feel better and to use as a bludgeon to silence the people calling them racists, intolerant, bigots, etc.
It’s concern trolling. Don’t take them seriously.
“They’re from an instance I don’t like!!!1!”
… Shows screenshot proving they’re not
It was actually two separate points. First, a troll brigade (unrelated to the screen shot.) Second, projection, using the ableism argument to try to make yourselves seem morally superior (illustrated by the protection in the screenshot.)
I’m sorry I confused you. I’ll try to keep each comment to a single, simple idea from now on.
You literally said “they” were from hexbear and then “they” in the next sentence. Use proper English if you don’t want to imply what you implied
It’s ableists like you who are why articles like this are needed.
I don’t feel that I can describe the… pride of being unique to people who haven’t felt it. It feels so natural that of course a non-disabled person would want to maximize their fitness and freedom and essentially not have the same concerns and certainly not have a community over an innate quality of themselves.
Asking people to remove these phrases is asking them to be mindful of their communication, asking them to be considerate and empathetic. And it’s so easy to slip back in, I was raised on these phrases.
But I will tell you the journey is rewarding. It’s opened me up to friendship with people who would write me off if I did use this language, people who wouldn’t share their perspective on life if I hadn’t put the effort in. That discomfort with talking to disabled people that I felt as a teen? That’s gone. I see mentally and physically disabled people as human, with all the same ability to show me or teach me something as anyone else. It feels great, like a weight off of my shoulders.
Being mindful about language also forces us to be more critical of what we’re saying. Using an insult or slur is easy. Needing to avoid it means that we need to use our minds to engage with why we don’t like something, and that can be legitimately enlightening.
Yeah. I’ve seen so much discourse over use of the R-slur. To some, it was obvious long ago. But few of us are so gifted with that foresight, and I stopped using it… last year!
Trying hard to remove “crazy” from my vocabulary, but I hear it so fucking often it’s turning out to be really hard. But I find it’s a pretty lazy word to use, anyway.
This is the sort of privileged things American liberals focus on instead of the literal fascism going on in their country.
Also anyone who thinks being deaf is beautiful and not a negative needs to get a reality check.
Neither my nationality (I’m not American) nor my politics (I’m not liberal) have anything to do with this. The fact that I’m disabled means that this is a matter near and dear to my heart, and I can indeed be worried about more than one thing at a time (the eroding of trans rights in my own country, for example). It’s not privileged to want to discuss the impact of language.
I find the word “ableist” offensive. Also the words, “it” and “this”.
So you’re openly a bigot, really something to be proud of. 🙄🙄
You’re a sanctimonious child.
How many fucking accounts do you have that I need to block.
This one?
I don’t care if you block me. Just do it and shut up.
And you just want to whine about how bigots are getting called out.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
This is a shitty take. Have more respect instead of trying to dismiss people with shitty quips.
No, it’s not. You have decided that we aren’t allowed to use word that you find offensive but that you don’t have to not use words that we find offensive. You’re a sanctimonious navel gazer. We’re going to ignore you now.
I ask you read my post, because you incorrectly assumed my position just because I told you to behave better.
Damn, so, you only care about what you think, and don’t care about what other people think…
Jesu, gods, do you ever look like an entitled twat with that opinion.
I ignored your request because I don’t give a fuck what you think.
People love having someone to feel superior to, that’s all it is. Some want to keep their oppressive language especially when they find out it’s harmful to others.
