I genuinely do not know who the bad guys are. S lot of my leftist friends are against Israel, but from what I know Israel was attacked and is responding and trying to get their hostages back.
Enlighten me. Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?
And dumb it down for me, because apparently I’m an idiot.
The good guys are the citizens who want none of this.
The bad guys are the citizens who want all of this, and the military personal behind the weapons, and the generals calling the shots.
Same as it ever was.
This simplistic one size fits all argument falls flat when one side is being occupied and ethnically cleaned by the other side. It implies that Hamas is the “bad guy” and all other occupied Palestinians are the “good guy,” and it implies that non-military Israeli settlers are the “‘good guy.” But the truth is that the great majority of adult Israelis are militant settler-colonizers; and that Palestinians have the legal right under UN law to struggle against their occupiers by any means necessary, including armed struggle; and that Israel, as an occupier, has no right to “self defense.”
When you can’t support your own arguments, you could of course just acknowledge this or even just not comment at all instead of lashing out at those who can.
It is particularly disgusting when your arguments serve to obscure genocide.
thank you for telling me I should block you.
Can we please block .world already?
You want to defederate from the largest Lemmy instance, the poster child, and the mascot of Lemmy? Good luck. They are Lemmy now.
Don’t care. If I gave a shit about the biggest instance because it has the most users, then I would have stayed on Reddit which has orders of magnitudes more users and to put it in the linked comment’s words, they still are link aggregators in the the commenter thinks .world “are” Lemmy. The whole damn point of federation is your instance is not locked into what the biggest instance wants to do.
That’s your own mess lol
What does your both-sidesing accomplish here? Are you trying to say that Palestine’s resistance to colonialism isn’t justified?
If so, then you’re doing this gandhi quote, but for the palestinian resistance.
Another lemmy.ml user to the rescue.
Blocked.
The good guys are the citizens
I’m going to have to stop you right there, because the Palestinians are not the citizens of any state: they are a people being occupied, apatheided, and genocided by the state of Israel. So there’s a “very, very simple truth” for you.
Oh my goodness would you look at that it’s lemmy.ml again
Bye 👋
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out 👋
Well obviously it’s the Western powers that gave a bunch of displaced Jews land after WWII, despite no legitimate claim to the area, and then proceeded to keep meddling in Middle Eastern affairs so they could get cheap oil. And the biggest of those Western powers directly gives taxpayer money to war profiteers so there’s a direct financial incentive to keep the genocide going.
Those are the goodest guys.
The Zionist project was going full steam ahead prior to WWII. Zionists collaborated with Nazis to get Jewish people to emigrate or get deported to Palestine. And Holocaust survivors were often looked down on there are Jews that had not done the “right” thing of abandoning their homes to steal someone else’s in Palestine. Zionists spread some of the most antisemitix things you have ever heard when it comes to this topic.
The backer of Zionism simply switched hands after WWII. Before it was the British, then it was the US.
Have you watched the Mandalorian? Palestinians are Grogu and the Mandalorian, Israel / US and Zionists are the Empire.
Hamas are, I think, a lesser bad guy to Israel’s big bad. Hamas are an inevitable consequence of a settler neighnour like Israel… the conflict is very old. Perhaps really the bad guy was Britain & the UN back in the 40s, who carved up Mandatory Palestine to create Israel & Palestine. You can trace it farther back to the origins of Zionism, too, in the late 19th century, and again British Zionists allowing settlers into Mandatory Palestine in the 20s.
I’d suggest reading over the history yourself and making up your own mind. The Wikipedia article is a good starting point imo. It’s a long and complex conflict with no clear “good” or “bad” side.
What I think personally is that Israel was founded by colonist settlers, supported by imperial western powers. The Arab locals have resisted as best they could but been repeatedly defeated, while Israel’s western support has allowed it to grow and grow. They have expanded far beyond the original borders by settling and stealing land from the Palestinians. Hamas is the most recent military faction in opposition, and it certainly has done terrible things… But a terrorist insurgency is an inevitable consequence of a settler nation attempting to take over a much less powerful neighbour. If it wasn’t Hamas, it would be another group.
Maybe if Hamas are truly wiped out, we’ll get lucky and the next one will be slightly less insane… But I doubt it. And you can bet Israel will use whoever they are as an excuse to continue their brutal occupation and wage yet more war in the region, while the rest of the world looks on.
On one side we have Israel; a very ironic imperialist nation, who’s leaders, military, and not insignificant number of civilians are behaving a lot like, if not a little worse than, the nazis that they had a history with. I’d also say hypocritical besides ironic.
The other side we have Hamas; an organisation that, in their 25 articles which explain why they’re doing what they’re doing, state they wish to kill ALL Jews everywhere, that Jewish people are responsible for all the world’s problems (standard Jewish conspiracy stuff, with a solid helping of Holocaust denial), that they are the one true believers of the Islamic faith, and that they’ll create an oppressive, religious controlled government that upholds “traditional family values” and completely takes away all rights from women (I remember reading they say the idea that women are free to do what men do is “Western corruption”).
The war needs to end, and the Palestinians need to be able to just live without getting oppressed. But I don’t see either side winning as a good thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds.
Note that Hamas is not the only Palestinian faction, but as the one everyone sees fighting Israel, the other factions, and the people of Gaza support them. When the people of Palestine are no longer fighting for their existence, I have no doubt they will support more secular factions as they did before.
The working class in both nations. The people, divided and conquered.
If Israel has a working class, it is one of settlers, IDF soldiers, etc. Those are not the “good guys”.
There is a longstanding and incorrect view of Western leftists in the capacity of the Israeli working class to build their power and address the injustices. That class has no capacity to do so whatsoever. They are fully bought-off by the ethnocentric project, both materially and psychologically. This is not very different from how other settler colonist “working classes” did the same. If anything, it is an important lesson that the working class is not a moral quantity, it is a group defined by its relation to production, and only through political education can it gain agency for positive change.
They do have a working class, but your second point is all too true, which is why it has made no impact.
The volunteers that risk going to do stuff in either side. It’s crazy out there
Yes, both sides are bad. And yes, one is vastly more powerful than the other.
I absolutely agree that the more pressing matter is stopping the Israeli advance in Gaza. But I dislike this argument because it brushes off impact of the October 7th attacks by Hamas.
It cannot be denied that Gaza is a terrible neighbor, same as Israel. No one is in the right here. Everyone is terrible. Yes, stopping the Israeli attack is the most important action now. But Gaza’s actions need to be recognized. Ignoring such things will only create more division and undermine a diplomatic solution.
If you were born in Israel you would hate Gaza. If you were born in Gaza you would hate Israel. What is the solution? In the short term is stop the attacks. But in the long term the solution for both sides is empathy, compassion and diplomacy.
oh right, totally forgot about those poor people who lived and partied next to the concentration camp and then got either kidnapped by people who wanted to break out of the concentration camp or were killed by the IDF. let’s all show a bit more empathy! 😥
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed. I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
Replace US with Israel in this Stokely Carmichael Quote:
“Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”
Israel, or any bully, will not be swayed by your appeals to their conscience, no matter how hard you try. Ruling classes intentionally spread pacifist propaganda becomes its completely unthreatening to them. Pacifism overall is a losing strategy with zero historical successes, as the article below gets into.
Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy’s job for them. Youtube Audiobook
I’m extremely confused. The civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s, led by MLK, had massive, sweeping success. Brown v. BOE, Loving v. Virginia, Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act of 1965, Fair Housing Act of 1968, etc. The non-violent strategy succeded in striking down segregation, Jim crow laws, and nearly all forms of legal racial discrimination within a couple decades.
Securing legal rights for minority groups to be treated equally under the law and courts is a losing strategy? What exactly is your objective if you see the civil rights movement as a loss?
I understand that you’re probably not American so you may not have an extensive knowledge of American history. But this is pretty important stuff, and acting like MLK failed because of his non-violent strategy is 1,000,000% wrong. Literally could not be further from the truth.
What did the Black Panthers accomplish with their violent strategy? They committed a few terrorist acts and all ended up dead or in jail. They didn’t secure any major, permanent victories for future generations.
Saying that MLK failed because of his non-violent approach is like saying Julius Caesar failed because he was an ineffective military commander. It’s so incredibly incorrect that I don’t understand how you could ever come to think that.
You did not read the linked article.
And also if you read Michelle Alexander’s the new jim crow, you’ll realize that even de-jure de-segregation has mostly been circumvented / nullified by drug laws. 1 in 5 black men will spend some time in prison in the US, and slavery is still legal in the US under the guise of drug-based imprisonment.
The article gets more into it, but the material wealth divide was completely unaffected by the civil rights “wins”, and poverty is still growing along color lines. I’ll post a few of these below:
- The US currently operates a system of slave labor camps, including at least 54 prison farms involved in agricultural slave labor. Outside of agricultural slavery, Federal Prison Industries operates a multi-billion dollar industry with ~ 52 prison factories , where prisoners produce furniture, clothing, circuit boards, products for the military, computer aided design services, call center support for private companies. 1, 2, 3
- The US has the highest incarceration rates in the world. Even individual US states outrank all other countries.
- Ramping up since the 1980s, the term prison–industrial complex is used to attribute the rapid expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services to government prison agencies. Such groups include corporations that contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology vendors, companies that operate prison food services and medical facilities, private probation companies, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activist groups such as the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) have argued that the prison-industrial complex is perpetuating a flawed belief that imprisonment is an effective solution to social problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental illness, and illiteracy. 1
- The War On Drugs, a policy of arrest and imprisonment targeting minorities, first initiated by Nixon, has over the years created a monstrous system of mass incarceration, resulting in the imprisonment of 1.5 million people each year, with the US having the most prisoners per capita of any nation. One in five black Americans will spend time behind bars due to drug laws. The war has created a permanent underclass of impoverished people who have few educational or job opportunities as a result of being punished for drug offenses, in a vicious cycle of oppression. 1, 2
- In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 200 prison camps, housing over 31,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. 1, 2
- The Obama era was one of the greatest decreases in working class and black wealth, 2 in history: home equity decreased by ~$17k between 2007 and 2016. His housing policies led to millions losing their homes. While Wall street banks recieved $29 Trillion in bailouts, $75 Billion in relief was set aside for housing foreclosures and mortgage assistance. Instead of being paid to families, this was paid to mortgage servicers, and the services found ways to pocket the money and continue foreclosures: by the end of the program, less than 20% of the funds were used, and most had dropped out of the program due to foreclosures. The Obama administration refused to prosecute the fraud, or any of those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis.
Ok I still think it’s wrong to criticize nonviolent resistance but I appreciate the data and links. It is true that I didn’t read the linked article at first.
Dr. King also changed his opinion later on. People act like he was some lifelong pacifist without knowing his full history and what changes were caused by his pacifist actions and by other’s more aggressive actions.
While you sound reasonable, your mistake seems to be to believie that Judaism is the same as Zionism. It is not. It is completely not. They are inherently incompatible. Learn about it or don’t. I’m not some kind of theological scholar or history professor. Maybe ask your local Rabbi about it.
Anyway, sorry to sound like some kind of an extremist to you, but violence is (at the moment) 100% the only answer. Not against the Jewish people, but against the fascist, zionist apartheid regime, who is committing genocide, right now, right before your eyes. Every day, bless you too.
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
The mental model here is “violence and diplomacy are mutually exclusive”. In fact, they’re very closely connected, almost synonymous.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
Agree here. I grew up in violence and lived through the peace process. It starts out violent, and you win concessions by showing strength, and then negotiate peace. That worked in Ireland in 1998 and almost worked in Palestine in 2000. Violence is the first part of the diplomacy.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.
You’re saying that the weak should go to the negotiating table empty-handed, but that won’t solve anything for them. They need to stop being weak and start being strong, then diplomacy can start to happen.
The solution to weakness is strength. How can the weak become strong without the Armalite?
The Catholics took up arms in 1968 and came to the negotiating table in 1998. We won some concessions because we showed strength for 31 years, not “empathy”. Yasser Arafat understood this: he knew when to use violence and when to negotiate. If you defang yourself as Step One, you make diplomacy impossible.
I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
I admire your values, but you’re incorrectly equating “empathy and diplomacy”. Diplomacy is more a military matter; empathy has no place in realpolitik.
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years.
This is a Zionism / Palestinian (and any other independence groups, really) “conflict”, which is to say, occupation and rrsistance.
But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
Diplomacy requires leverage and is not an inherent good on its own. Diplomacy can be a tool for delay, propaganda, and for achieving a lopsided deal with false representatives. All of these things have been done via US/Israeli “diplomacy” regarding Paleetine.
You see a people forced into a ghetto fighting back and say, “no that’s not the way” as if you have any understanding and have earned an opinion. An important lesson to learn is when you should have no opinion until you become informed.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
The divide is already there. It is genocidal settler-colonial apartheid vs. freedom fighters. And the camps throwing in for each side of this. Personally, I don’t find it difficult to place myself fully in the freedom fighter camp and against the genociders. Do you? And no, there is no third option because there is no third force with any leverage or will.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.
The violence has already been here. What on earth are you talking about? What fantasy world do you live in where passive Palestinians are left alone? The Israeli project is premised on their oppression and expulsion.
And you are simply wrong in your generalization. Violence has been essential for virtually every liberation fight. This is not because the marginalized love violence, it is because the oppressor leaves no other options.
I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel.
Israel is an apartheid ethnostate doing a genocide. It is racist and horrible to wish the best for it.
And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
You don’t deserve an opinion on this topic because you do not know anything about it. You do not get to set the terms of others’ freedom. You should spend your time helping the resistance, not rationalizing a fairy tale about how to oppose settler-colonial genocide with “diplomacy” and no militarized resistance.
Just like everywhere else, the bad guys are the leaders killing people and creating hate to keep themselves in power, and the good guys are the people who are just trying to live their lives in dignity anr freedom. Both sides have both. You could make an argument that the leaders on one side arr worse because they have more deadly firepower at their disposal, but that seems like a moot point to me. The hate is the problem and the people who need it to stay in power are the bad guys.
I don’t have any inherent support either side, and there’s too much history along with bias, propaganda, and outright misinformation to make a determination of who the “good guys” are, if anyone.
However, in such cases I will support the underdog on the principle that you don’t really want one side to have too much power over the other. That’s how we end up with things like ethnic cleansing and genocide. If Palestine (and Lebanon) had powerful militaries, you wouldn’t be seeing the mass devastation and huge loss of civilian lives. I’d prefer to see the sides more balanced so that they can keep each other in check.
Another angle to consider is that I consider the state of Israel to be actively harmful to Americans on the basis of:
-
using our tax dollars to commit mass murder against civilians, including a staggering death toll for children
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infiltrating our government, interfering with our elections, and having an undue level of influence on American policy
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corollary to the preceding point: they support getting Trump back into the White House
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training American law enforcement, who then use their oppressive tactics on Americans
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similarly, technology they develop for surveillance and other means of control being used on Americans
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directly attacking our First Amendment rights
Bottom line is I’d say everyone sucks, but in different ways. But I am anti-Israel on the basis of them being way out of control (and without anyone to keep them in check) and due to the threat they pose to the American public.
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Muslims and Jews believe in the same sky man but have very different views on him. Jews didn’t have a country until Israel was created after world war two. Lots of Arab people lost land and their rights overnight. Israel and its neighbours never really got on from the start. On both sides people took their religion too far. Zionist Jews and Hamas-type Muslims essentially believe that their mission is to drive the other lot off the land / out of existence. Nutters took control of each side and pushed their personal agendas. Both civilians suffer - although undoubtedly Arab civilians have it way way worse. In short both sets of civilians are led by bad people - but the Gazan civilians suffer terribly in comparison to the Israeli civilians.
Just leave it alone, cause they can’t see eye to eye. There ain’t no good guys. There ain’t no bad guys. There’s only Jews and Ps and they just disagree.
Israelis and Palestinians. Many Jews are against what Israel is doing.
I don’t think there is a good guy:
Hamas Attacked Israel and killed more people in the attack relative to the population then 9/11. They used the population of the Gazastrip as human shields, building there bases in the City sometimes near hospitals. Using human shields is a war crime. UN schools use(d) books in which Israels existence is disclaimed. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution, they want the complete destruction of Israel. Remember, not every Palestinian is Hamas, but a large portion of them supported the terror attack.
On the other side is Israel, the only democratic nation in the near east. Occupying parts of Syria, Lebanon, the west Bank and Gaza. Building villages in the occupied partes of West Bank for decades, illegally. The occupied Gaza just like the westbank until the mid 2000s when they retreated and left the villages. Hamas got into power and attacked Israel many times with simple rockets. After the devastating terror attack last year the responded with hard force killing many hamas fighters, but much more civilians. To be clear, it isn’t a war crime when there are some civilians under the casualties. But in my opinion, Israel wasn’t killing many hamas and there where a few civilians, they killed some Hamas and there were many normal people, sometimes ignoring them. But remember, Hamas wants this they want the world to hate Israel. If that means that many Palestinians die, so what. They used civilians as shields, hiding in them (war crime) Whether in city’s or refugee camps, hamas tried to hide there, putting normal Palestinians in danger.
To be honest, I don’t think we will see a solution to this decade long conflict in the near future. :(
Don’t forget that Israel’s government also has explicitly said it wants to ethnically cleanse and genocide the Palestinians, on multiple occassions. It also isn’t democratic, considering there quite literally is a case of apartheid state.
I’m happy they are a “democracy”, but they need to actually live up to the word instead of the former victim becoming the perpetrator themselves.
I doubt most Palestinians actually support the terror attack. If they do, they probably want revenge for the Nakba in 1948, in where Israel has systematically expulsed and cleansed Palestinians from their native soil.
Not that it solves anything, but it’s hard to feel sympathy and anger to both, when it is overall a tragedy that only has one true solution:
Both sides living in peace, equal among kin, with no animosity, with no fascist Israeli government, with no calls to genocide from either side.
There certainly is a good guy and it’s called the citizens who just don’t want their governments to be shit, and to cooperate instead. The citizens who want to return to their country. The citizens that don’t settle. The citizens that want loved ones back, but don’t call for murder. Those are your good guys: normal people, who do not contribute to hatred.
I think there certainly is a solution. The question is whether the US actually has the balls to put multiple warships near the fascist Israel government and Hamas’ repression and credibly threaten both sides (with actual consequences following if neither listens), unless if the former retreats from all settlements and actually contributes to cooperation with the right to return and full citizenship, and the latter releases the prisoners alive and well, and agrees to cooperate as well.
This, all while guaranteeing the right of queers to be enshrined, the seculars to actually have secular marriages, the religious to cooperate and build an interfaith communion.
Hatred needs to be exterminated. If fascists and dictatorships do not listen (they never do), they need to be fought on all fronts.
If they do, they probably want revenge for the Nakba in 1948, in where Israel has systematically expulsed and cleansed Palestinians from their native soil.
The Nakba was really bad and heavily shapes modern Palestinian consciousness, but nobody is seeking revenge for the Nakba itself anymore. It’s more about retaliating against much more recent and current offenses, mainly the Gaza blockade and settlements, resisting Israeli occupation and freeing Palestinian detainees.
They used the population of the Gazastrip as human shields, building there bases in the City sometimes near hospitals. Using human shields is a war crime.
Correction: Israel claims they used (and still use) human shields. Those claims have not been proven in any way. You’ll say they build their military bases and headquarters in cities, but literally every military in the world does that.
Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution,
Look up the 2008 and 2012 ceasefires. Hamas isn’t fundamentally opposed to a two-state solution. It’s not their preferred result, but they’ve taken part in serious peace deals more than once only for Israel to destroy the whole thing.
Israel is using Palestinians as human shield. How do you expect Hamas to not be in civilians area in a highly populated 365 square kilometers area? Do you expect Hamas to kill themselves or to let Israel occupy land with no resistance at all? By resistance, I don’t mean things like 7 of October but something like attacking military target
There are no “good guys” in a conflict between religious people.
Read the excellent Decolonize Palestine website to learn about the vital context that makes Israel’s claim of self defense deeply disingenuous, and to learn about some of the falsehoods about Israel and Palestine that are present in mainstream discourse.
There are no “good guys” in a conflict between religious people.
Religion does play a role in the conflict, particularly over the question of where the border between an Israeli and Palestian state should go (so that holy sites end up on the appropriate side), but I don’t think it’s very useful to understand this as a religious conflict.
The Jews who moved to Israel in the early 20th century weren’t pilgrims. They were refugees fleeing political persecution. The founder of Zionism wasn’t even religious.
And Israel didn’t happen because religious Jews enthusiastically got behind the idea of Zionism. Israel happened because Britain got behind the idea of Zionism.
Because the Crusdaes of the 11th to 13th centuries still loom large in Western culture (Richard the Lionheart and all that), I think Westerners have a tendency to think that the situation in Israel/Palestine is a continuation of those conflicts. But it’s really not. It’s a 20th century creation.
The first violent Zionist settlers started migrating in the late 1800s, not the 20th century, this is more Zionist propaganda that leaves out the early terror in Palestine that foreshadowed the rest of the conflict. These early terror groups were mostly ineffective, but their eventual dissolution lead to Zionist thought spreading to what are now the top supporters and financiers of Israel. the rest of the comment is spot on though.
The largest armed force in the gaza strip is deeply religious and the entire reason the support they receive from their biggest ally, the IRR, is religion. If Hamas were Sunni muslims instead of Shia, Iran would remain silent. Just as they were, when their Shia allies in Syria and Yemen started to massacre non-Shia in the region.
If Hamas were Sunni muslims instead of Shia
Hamas are Sunni.
Hezbollah are Shia.
Arabs leaders was also so stupid, they kicked most of the non zionist jews from Arabs lands in response to kicking out Palestinians after 48 loss instead of trying to make them allies
Where are the good guys in non-religious (scientific) leaders?
They are all scheming to gain more power and control.
Humans are just not emotionally ready to recognize where all this leads.
Your link is broke https://decolonizepalestine.com/
I mean the whole reason why you are confused is that this is the most complex conflict in the world and here (like everywhere else) you are going to get responses in both directions. I suggest you read what each side has to say for itself: for unconditional pro-Israeli propaganda I suggest https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/ and for unconditional pro-Palestinian propaganda I suggest https://mondoweiss.net/ – read both of these and decide for yourself what arguments on both sides you believe more.
I do not think there are any truly good guys in the conflict; but I do think that Israel is worse and tend to side with the Palestinians. This is mainly because Israel is the side with vastly more power and I think it’s up to the powerful, the oppressor, to try to treat the people they have power over with dignity and try to give up the power they have.
Of course, even that argument of mine has a counter-argument! You can (and should!) read it here: https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-parameters-of-discussion-michael.html
It is not complex at all, it is just genocidal settler colonialism and resistance to it. “Complexity” is just a proxy for being uncomfortable acknowledging this, which is something you should do some introspection on as someone from a German instance. Ever hear of the Holocaust? Of Lebensraum?
Never again means never again for anyone.
The thing is that I actually mostly agree with you, but I do not think that the other side is entirely illegitimate.
Which part of genocidal racist settler colonists is legitimate to you?
What legitimacy do you see in Israeli Apartheid? Because, long story short, that’s what the Israeli side is selling.
I’m not here for a drawn out debate. I think Israel’s settlement program is a major reason why there is no peace and I would find Israel a lot easier to defend if they weren’t doing it. It is only one piece of the puzzle though.
Mondoweiss isn’t unconditional pro-Palestine propaganda. It’s a well-sourced pro-Palestinian news site.
If you believe that, you’re just as biased as they are. Check the archive page from last October and tell us that with a straight face. https://mondoweiss.net/news/page/61/
Maybe provide examples? I see nothing that would prevent me from saying that with a straight face. There, lemme just…
Mondoweiss isn’t unconditional pro-Palestine propaganda. It’s a well-sourced pro-Palestinian news site.
