- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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Yeah the sexual frustration is definitely caused by extreme misogyny though
Chicken or egg doesn’t really matter. It’s a vicious cycle that reinforces itself and gets worse the longer it continues.
It matters if you aim at doing something about the phenomenon, no?
Stupid bitches. Why won’t they sleep with me?
Interestingly, the first paragraphs of the linked article say that researchers found the opposite.
If I hadn’t met my wife 30+ years ago, I can see how I might have become a sort of paleo-proto-incel…maybe just more of a bitter old maid of a man that no woman would want to be around. I do feel for the incels. They certainly aren’t happy. There’s something unhealthy about a society that produces so damn many of them.
Yeah, I don’t know. I feel much more sorry for the girls and women who get hit by that hatred. And they definitely do. Online and sometimes offline as well. I see it in school (in Germany) how some boys as young as 12 already bought into the incel narratives and treat the girls accordingly. This has to be stomped out.
I pity the girls who get treated horribly and I pity the incels who do it because they’re deeply unhappy people. My pity doesn’t justify what they do about their unhappiness, but it is a sad state of affairs all around.
That’s part of why they feel like they don’t belong and hate the world. No one is saying you should excuse their actions or that you should not prosecute them. I agree that this has to be stomped out, but treating symptoms instead of the causes only goes so far.
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Everyone close to me was this. We went outside though and weren’t bombarded by screens 24/7. Had space to think and learn and solve and grow. Instead of echo chambers of ppl comprised of the worst parts of ourselves.
But if there are so many male incels that means there must be many female incels, where are they?
The incel forums and the term coined was originally created by a women.
Also, have you not heard of femcels? Have you not seen that toxic XY subreddit?
Makes sense yeah, it’s just that I see way more male incels online than femcells, I don’t really know all the ins and outs of Reddit despite having used it for five years lol, is it the twoX chromosome sub?
Funny thing is… there isn’t. Its easy for a woman to get laid if she chooses to. She can go on any dating app, like bunch of dudes and an average girl could easily have a different guy every night.
The single female population, albeit sizable too ofc, hasn’t had much of a change as a percentage over the years. Single male population is however skyrocketing.
Two thirds of male under 30 are single. But only one third of female under 30 are single over a past year of time. You could theorize women are simply dating older now, which may be true, but wouldn’t account for such drastic disparity. Also this gap exists in 30 to 40 bracket too, though much smaller.
Most simple answer is that they’re sharing men, whether they realize it or not.
We know from dating apps that vast majority of women only select on very few percent of men. So the most attractive men are essentially having multiple women at the same time or at round robin (it’s not cheating). Polygamy is pretty much coming back. In some other countries like china, polygamy has become an open secret for the rich.
Its easy for a woman to get laid if she chooses to. She can go on any dating app, like bunch of dudes and an average girl could easily have a different guy every night.
That’s ridiculous nonsense. It’s completely untrue. The face that you think any average woman can have sex with any man she meets every single night of the week just shows how shallow you think people really are. No, any average woman can have sex with any man she meets every single night of the week. This is just “women have it easy and have their pick of any man ever”.
But even if you ignore that, what guarantee do those women have of being safe? What’s their guarantee of not being choked their first time with someone new? That’s a real, common thing happening with people these days, all the way down to the teen years. My sister has had this happen to her multiple times and there are countless accounts online to the point there are articles and studies written about the subject. What’s their guarantee of even an orgasm (given the actual, proven orgasm gap) or even getting raped if they say no?
Sure, you could say any average woman could have sex. And she’d be risking her safety and potentially life for the high possibility of bad sex. But sure, go on about how easy it is for women to get laid.
I didn’t say any average woman can have sex with any man she meets. I said an average woman can have sex with a man every night. That’s extremely different. They can send a message to 100 different guys every day on dating app and straight up ask for sex. Guaranteed at least 1 guy will say yes. People have tested this. This is absolutely true.
There are real women who’s imo pretty below average looking do this on regular basis. With hundreds of past sex-partners.
But even if you ignore that, what guarantee do those women have of being safe?
There isn’t. That’s irrelevant though. What guarantee do I have that I would save a safe time getting anywhere by car? There isn’t. Why do you seek for a guarantee in anything anyway? That’s pointless and irrational. What guarantee does a guy have that when he meets up, there’s actually just bunch of muggers? There isn’t. That happens too btw.
You meet somewhere public & safe, take your time to vet, and then act on the perceived risk and reward. That’s how life works. There’s never a guarantee of anything in life.
But that’s still vastly easier than getting 0 matches and never having a chance to begin with. Fact is, women do match on dating apps, and they do go on dates, and they do have sex. Stats prove this. Men do not get anywhere near as much in any of the stats.
Make no mistake, I’m not saying people are having easy time getting genuine relationships. Dating apps ruin it for everyone. But if you don’t think women have it easier, you are completely ignorant to the stats that’s we’re seeing.
How in the world is safety irrelevant? Or are you just assuming that men will readily jump an average looking woman who wants sex because he’s just that shallow? It seems to me you’re speaking very poorly of men while trying to paint women as “having it easy”. Somehow, I don’t think sex that threatens my life is “easy” and I don’t think of that threat at irrelevant.
You seriously have a reading comprehension problem.
- I never said safety is irrelevant. I said guarantee is irrelevant.
- I never assumed men will readily jump on an average looking woman. I said it’s been tested.
- People seeking casual sex has nothing to do with shallowness. You brought that out of nowhere.
- I never spoke poorly of men.
- I never said women have it easy. In fact, I distinctively said they do not. I said they have it easier.
Nothing you argued about since the beginning is based on what I said. Learn to read. Or fuck off.
These guys aren’t physically repulsive, it’s their shit personalities that keeps them from getting laid.
The study found the opposite. The really bad guys were the ones with many partners.
At least a subset do. The study concedes it’s self-reported and not necessarily a representative sample of all incels.
At the very least, it sounds more to me like there’s now just cross-pollination between the old PUA community/philosophy and the incel community. Both are highly misogynistic, but incel culture is literally defined by men unable to find partners and PuAs are defined by men who only find many multiple partners.
A mysoginist claiming to have multiple partners just sounds like a Red Piller to me, not an incel, and I’m a bit suspicious of this whole “study”. I’m curious whether this study even bothered to consider that distinction. I read the article top to bottom and found no indication on how they actually identified their sample of incels as incels, and couldn’t find a link to the study itself. It appears like they simply found some online mysoginists and assumed they were all incels.
Where in the study did they wrote that?
Contrary to the incel narrative, the study found that extreme misogynistic views were driven by a psychology of dominance and status-seeking, which correlated with having many sexual partners. The study suggests that individuals who hold these extreme views are more similar to socially dominant “Chads” than to the stereotypical incel who turns his sexual frustration into hatred and a desire for revenge against women.
Consensually, without coercion or phycological abuse is the key part tho.
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Personally I think not enough attention is paid to how community atomization and sprawl, and the near elimination of the third place in America, has fostered a crisis of loneliness.
Young men chronically have no outlets through which they can socially interact with women. The only place it happened was at school and maybe some extracurriculars if they were especially social.
Society unconsciously brushes this crisis off with “well the real friends that matter are the ones you make in college anyways!” Ignoring how that doesn’t help guys that don’t have higher study in their life plan, or the fact that learning to properly socialize is kinda the point of those grade school friends you’ll probably lose touch with in adulthood.
All that was the case even BEFORE the pandemic hit, now even school’s been atomized, granted, rightfully so in the circumstances, with classes going virtual and leaving students in a situation where the Internet is the only place left in the world where they can learn any social skills, and that’s where the damned redcaps and chuds swoop in to prey on their insecurities.
That “college friends” line always bugged me. I keep in closer touch with my good high school friends then I do with my old college friends.
I’m the exact opposite. I don’t keep in touch with anyone from below college outside of the odd text once or twice a year.
I only have Internet friends :(
I’ll be your internet friend. How’s the weekend going?
Came here to say something similar. Loneliness is the cancer eating our society. I used to feel terribly lonely, even with incredible close friends, around holidays. That translated into feeling lonely much of the time because I was aware there was no one at those special times. Side note: never been an incel or misogynist.
Also the fact that most clubs in colleges today are segregated
Wait what?
By gender, I assume.
well in my uni, most of the normal clubs (ie - acm) had womens versions which didn’t allow men. Additionally most of the clubs at my school were actually segregated by race/nationality/religion (ie - african students union, korean christian association, muslim student assocation, society of hispanic engineers, etc.). So there were only a few clubs I was actually allowed to join and it they were basically all white males despite not being exclusive like the other ones. Schools fund these clubs so that they can claim they’re supporting diversity and inclusion and sure they’re supporting minority communities, but at the same time I don’t think the results are what they were hoping.
I always thought segregated clubs were a bad thing. Diversity and inclusion my ass, that’s the opposite of what they’re doing.
You can make friends anywhere. Many people make them in situations like high school or college but there are other options like church, work, online, clubs, hobbies, bars, etc.
It seems like a stretch to blame society because specific people have poor social skills and can’t attract a mate or friends. Putting them in social situations more common of the past doesn’t mean they’d have any better luck. They lack skills that take trial and error and lots of practice that most other people learn at a young age. I know a couple of guys that could be considered incels and they lack self awareness, refuse to listen to advice, and spend nearly all their time playing games online. If they actively choose not to work at improving their deficiencies, whose fault is that? If someone is morbidly obese yet refuses to eat healthier and instead goes out to McDonald’s for every meal, would you say the same thing? At the end of the day you have to take some responsibility for the situations that you find yourself stuck in. That’s not to say these people deserve it, but we all have our own challenges in life that we must overcome.
So it turns out that it’s not a lack of women giving them a bad attitude - it’s their bad attitude giving them a lack of women. Who’d have thought.
So if I understand correctly, the study suggests the driving factor might well be longing for social dominance and sociopathic traits and not necessarily sexual frustration.
My theory that a rising number of men end up being Incels is that it’s getting harder and harder for young men to make any experience with women at all.
Online and offline dating became toxic af which leads to frustration. This frustration opens the door for people like Andrew Tate.
The article from OP says the most misogynistic men are ironically the ones which get laid the most. I’d put Andrew Tate into this category.
Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to Tate
Why do you suppose dating is worse now? I will disagree any time and place with people who say online dating is awful. The alternative – randomly hitting on people and hoping a million unknowable factors all line up – is far worse.
You are joking right? Online dating is even worse than offline dating.
First of all there are far more men using online dating than women.
Second men like and Text way to many women which leads women’s inboxes to be overfilled.
Most of the few available women only want the top 15% of the men.
Then the dead profiles aka. only their Instagram username tagged in bio.
And there are also those who chat with you for a few days and then try to sell their adult content to you or want you to invest in crypto XY.
I’ve met my gf on a dating platform 5 years ago and the online dating situation was bad then already. I occasionally saw the posts in r/tinder and oh boy has that thing become a shitshow since then.
Idk I’m a married dude nearing 40 who is on dating sites a fair amount (it’s cool so is my wife), and I’m a pretty average guy all-around, and it doesn’t seem like this hellscape you paint it as. I have everything possible stacked against me for online dating, and I consistently get what I’m looking for.
Yeah there are lots of crazies, but that’s because crazy people exist, and you’d run into them in more traditional dating too. Check out any romcom from the 90s and there’ll likely be a montage of crazies.
I am glad that online dating works out for you my friend. Don’t wanna offend you but we are talking about young people. you turning 40 means you are middle aged. The customers of Tate and similar assholes are mostly under 30 years.
I regularly speak with women in their late 20s. My cutoff is 26 so I avoid people my daughter knows.
If you’re on sites specializing in ENM that’s probably why, niche enough that the bots and toxic algo practices haven’t descended upon them yet
So you are a success story yourself for online dating, but because you see the most insane experiences from it getting posted on social media, it’s obviously now irredeemable…? Do you not have any self awareness?
it’s not a “success story”. I’ve experienced ALOT of bad stuff before my gf messaged me. I’ve been on multiple dating platforms and all of them were toxic af. I was deleting my accounts while my gf texted me.
Having bad experiences doesn’t erase the fact that you got a long term girlfriend from using online dating. That is still what happened. Unless you want to break up with your girlfriend right now, denying it’s a success story is denying reality.
Like are you people really old or what? Everyone who can’t stfu about how bad online dating is always confuses me.
I guess i have to go a little more into detail to make you understand. I’ve been using online dating from age 16-20 and made only bad expirences. That’s why I was deleting all of my accounts. my girlfriend was the first woman who messaged me first and I immediately told her that I am deleting my account so we have to stay connected via WhatsApp. is it a success that I found a long term girlfriend? Yes Does it erase the shitload of bad stuff I experienced in the 4 years before her message? no.
It’s a fact that online dating is toxic. Both Bumble and Tinder released statistics which show that women want the top 15% of men. Most men end up with single digit likes, if they even get any. Women’s inboxes on the other hand explode from unsolicited wiener pics or similar unwanted messages.
It isn’t a “fact”. The only fact you seem intent on ignoring is that people suck in general which isn’t a reflection on how tOxIC apps are. You found someone who doesn’t suck but we obviously can’t credit to the existence of an app for that, but we sure can blame all the people sucking on it right? Such a silly hill to die on.
Also I don’t think any dating site has allowed sending pictures for a while, so no dick pics wouldn’t really be an issue.
I’m average looking but still managed to get dozens of dates. Rejection sucks and the apps give you a lot of that but they also, again, demonstrably, give us long term relationships. It’s a FACT. An actual FACT. Subjective experiences are not facts, however us both having girlfriends right now is. Now tell me again how that doesn’t count for literally anything because women usually don’t message us back.
Why do you suppose dating is worse now?
Globalization and social media
Just read the articles on Tinder, it’s a sad affair for the not attractive man
When all men you had access to where the village boys you won’t be that picky. Once the whole world can sext you, why settle for the ok dude that looks nice in a suit if you squint enough?
I don’t need to read articles, I have years of actual first hand experience
It’s been my experience that meeting people in person works and online dating just doesn’t. I’m not saying all the female profiles on dating sites are fakes generated by the site to tempt men into subscribing, but I definitely am saying that if they were, my experience wouldn’t have been different.
the entire concept of an incel did not exist until tinder came about. Read the article and paper. Hookup apps promote the type of promiscuous/chad behavior that incels want and fail to achieve … thus causing their frustration
Sexual frustration comes from mysgonstic talking points that women, rightfully, keep their distance from. Why would I want to sleep with someone who is demeaning and insulting to me? 😂
Maybe not you but someone out there might. Age has taught me the world takes all types.
Contrary to the incel narrative, the study found that extreme misogynistic views were driven by a psychology of dominance and status-seeking, which correlated with having many sexual partners.
That’s the real problem. They’re not necessarily sexually frustrated, that’s only a piece of it. It’s a distortion of their value and self-esteem, projected onto women. “If I matter, women should sleep with me.”
psychology of dominance and status-seeking = entitled
Concise and accurate. Which is odd to me because I’d think that’s an Alpha Bro but apparently it’s a Chad trait.
it’s an abuser’s trait. Lundy Brancroft taught me that in his book ‘Why does he do that?’
I would have gone with pathetically desperate rather than entitled, but close enough.
I think they project it anywhere other than themselves to be honest. I lurked their hideouts for a bit out of curiosity and they seem to place a lot of their hate onto other men too. The whole vibe of the places is to whinge about the success of others (who are doing it wrong by not treating women like shit like they deserve because women having standards at all is wrong somehow) while also reinforcing amongst themselves that whatever is wrong with them cannot be changed, improved, repaired or fixed and any attempt to do so is to be attacked for trying to become one of those men who are doing it "wrong and tgus deserve scorn.
Successful relationships or even short term sexual liasons with women do not give them value in their micro societies. It causes them to lose status. They want a very particular kind of completely unchallengable dominance based on their intrinsic entitlement and any compromise on that can mean exile from the places they go for comfort… It’s a death cult. Flat out they want people to abandon hope forever and wallow in their worst qualities and misery until they no longer feel any point in living.
Interestingly, that is the same logic MGTOW have for not wanting women in their lives. Just replace mysogeny with misandry in the assertion.
But that’s not the topic? I wish MGTOW would just go their own way already instead of pestering everyone with their bullshit.
Is MIGTOW not widely considered a red pill community? Who are they pestering? Wouldn’t that mean they aren’t going their own way?
It also comes from not being able to communicate to a potential partner how you would like to climax. Likely out of embarrassment or shame.
Also you don’t have to do shit for anyone that insults you.
very well put; vegan btw…
Thank you!
No because sexual frustration is just being inevitable outcome of their personality. This is only a revelation to people who never met them.
Most incels seem to lean pretty politically conservative, that’s where I figure it comes from.
Me trying to put politics into every post I see:
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Id be misogynistic as fuuuuuck.
If that pickle is supposed to represent incels, they should have used a baby dill instead.
haha smol peen funi
My running theory is most of these people are queer to some degree. They end up hating women because they don’t have the communication skills to express what they want out of a relationship. When they become unfulfilled then they blame it on the person they think is supposed to be fulfilling them. Sorry boys if you want your SO to peg and domme you you need to tell them.
That could be a cute romance story. Two incels bond over hating women and SJWs. They get together to play Valorant or browse 4chan in bed together while posting gore. They turn to each other and speak in green text and kiss.
It really would(n’t) be but that takes some self awareness and reflection many of them simply don’t have the skills to achieve. I’d assume once you have achieved that amount of self awareness you stop hating women but maybe I’m being hopeful.
You don’t need to be queer to enjoy being dominated by a woman. Kink takes all sexual attractions and genders, as long as everyone is consenting.
What? This sort of sounds like some shit an incel would say.
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So… what you’re saying is more or less that misogyny in incels is probably caused by sexual frustration?
