- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- world@lemmy.world
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Relevant bit of information:
“Israeli army spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told CNN the hospital and compound were for Hamas “a central hub of their operations, perhaps even the beating heart and maybe even a centre of gravity.”
The U.S. said on Tuesday that its own intelligence supported Israel’s conclusions.”
Yeah… and there were WMDs in Iraq.
I guess its true then. US and Isreal never lies…
Good thing Hamas only tells the truth! /s
This has nothing to do with hamas. In general, hamas is either a terrorist organization, or a military resistant. In both case, you don’t expect anything from them. Most of the resistant groups or terrorist organization are not expected to tell the truth or be expected to respect international laws.
Isreal, is “recognized” state and government by many countries, they have trades and embassies around the world and part of the United Nations.
When they work so hard to show media “proofs” of a calender posted on the wall, a few guns in the MRI machine rooms, and no sign of it being the center of gravity and they get caught lying by their own videos they published then maybe we should consider them a terrorist organization as well and treat them like that. Maybe we should sanction any one sending them money.
If they are that confident they should show the world evidence, which regardless of what they found, doesn’t mean they can commit war crimes.
Here’s my understanding of what you said.
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We expect Hamas to lie and disrespect international laws because they are a resistance group or a terrorist organization.
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Israel is different because they are “recognized” as a state by the UN and should be held to a different standard.
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You believe the IDF lied in their PR videos and we should consider them a terrorist organization.
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We need to see more and better evidence to back up IDF claims, but regardless of what evidence they produce their actions are war crimes.
With that understanding, I would like to add that Hamas is also a political organization and the ruling power in Gaza. No one can hold a position of authority in Gaza without the consent of Hamas. Hamas also has offices and leadership throughout the Middle-East. Two prominent examples are in Doha, Qatar, and Cairo, Egypt.
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Just to be clear: your reasoning here is that if a murderer hides out in an American hospital its totally legitimate just to blow it the fuck up to get at him, right?
No, that is not what I said and not what I believe.
Al Jazeera cut the feed to a journalist interviewing a man in the hospital who complained about Hamas using it as a base
Hospital based Hamas “command centers” are starting to feel like “al Qaeda second in command”. Seems like they are magnetically attracted to ends of American ordinance.
It’s not like this hasn’t been reported before. It’s sort of an open secret.
Biden said this was a line Israel should not cross.
I look forward to his ignoring this and sending more weapons, and ordering the US military to fly more drones over Gaza.
Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations? I think they are.
Is it not a brazen war crime to use the sick and injured as a human shield? In fact, it is.Hamas militants should be nowhere near any hospital, school, place of worship, or other place where civilians and noncombatants may be gathering. To use places like this as a base of operations is both cowardly and completely against international norms and laws. The IDF would have zero justification for any military operation at Al Shifa Hospital had Hamas not made the horrible decision to use it, and the suffering people within it, as a shield. For context:
The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Optional Protocols of 1977 (the main treaties of International Humanitarian Law – IHL) set a range of minimum standards for the conduct of hostilities. They are based upon the fundamental principle of distinction between civilians and other protected persons, on the one hand, and those who take part in hostilities (combatants for short).
The term “civilian” refers to individuals or objects (e.g., premises) that do not have a direct role in hostilities (See Rule 5 and Rule 9 of the Study on customary international law by the International Committee of the Red Cross – ICRC). An attack against a civilian person or object is therefore generally a violation of IHL and may constitute a war crime. A person or object can however lose its civilian status if it starts making an effective contribution to military action. It would then become a legitimate military objective (and hence a target) (See Rule 10 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC). This determination must however be unequivocal: when in doubt as to whether a school or hospital has become a military objective, there is a presumption that it retains its civilian status.
Even attacks against legitimate military targets must, however, follow two additional principles: 1) the principle of proportionality – whereby an attack that would cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited (See Rule 14 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC) – and 2) the principle of precaution in attack – which states that constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects (See Rule 15 of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC).
Hamas are certainly not ignorant of this, and so they must know that by using the Al Shifa Hospital as a strategic location they are deliberately putting a target on it, so why would they do it?
Hamas 100% wants to provoke IDF killings of Palestinian civilians. This is not a shock, this is how modern guerrilla/terrorist/resistance wars work (pick your adjective).
The Vietnamese resistance under Ho Chi Minh were the most masterful recent practitioners, but the IRA, LTTE, etc also deployed this.
Israel is playing into Hamas’s hands and will get about as much benefit (reputationally and politically) from killing Gazans and razing their homes as the US did in Vietnam.
Is Hamas not the slightest bit culpable for using a hospital to stage militant operations?
Sure, but the difference is that that the IDF is actively murdering with weapons that we are giving them.
Also, if Hamas is subject to the Geneva convention then they are a legitimate state authority. Are you sure you want to take that position? Because it means that literally everything that Israel is doing in Hamas is a war crime.
At this point I think we can safely conclude that Hamas doesn’t care if Israel collectively punishes Palestinian civilians any more than Israel cares when Hamas lobs rockets at Israeli civilians - that is, they don’t like it when it happens, but it happening will in no way persuade them to stop.
Logically, it’s an impasse, the consequence of which will be the eventual extermination of the Palestinians- an outcome that Bibi seems not to be bothered by at all
Even if Hamas has a command center underneath the hospital, it doesn’t justify killing civilians inside the hospital.
Edit: clarification of my point
Nor did they kill civilians inside the hospital.
Probably why they are going in on foot instead of bombing.
Yet civilians are getting killed by sniper fire.
So what’s the Alternative?
Hamas made the hospital into a legitimate target in a war by using it like that.
Can’t evacuate, can’t bomb, can’t go in on foot - why are people always saying what they don’t want but never what the Alternative is?
Should Hamas be rewarded for using their most vulnerable civilians as a shield like this?
well everyone was saying Israel needed to go in on foot until they did then they said they can’t do that either.
Yeah that’s what I say. They just want Israel to roll over and do nothing even though they are the ones that were attacked.
Bunch of morons just want Israel to stop murdering people.
Look, setting aside the whole human shields argument; that’s wholly irrelevant here. We’re talking sniper fire. Like the one where you take aim, go “I have a clear shot” and shoot. The idea of “there are Hamas operatives in this building so it’s okay” only works (I mean it doesn’t but if you assume it does) when you can’t choose your targets; a soldier holding a sniper and taking individual shots isn’t that.
I’m not sure that IDF snipers even know how to shoot anything that isn’t a Palestinian civilian.
So what’s the Alternative?
Not murdering civilians?
So what’s the Alternative?
Not shooting children in the face. Is that REALLY hard for you to understand?
Hamas made the hospital into a legitimate target in a war by using it like that.
Oh? Is Hamas a legitimate state authority now? Doesn’t that make the IDF actions a war crime then? I thought they were TERRORISTS which means that this is an enforcement response, not an invasion. You don’t get it both ways. Either Hamas are the state of Palestine or they aren’t, and they can’t make anything a “legitimate target”.
Can’t evacuate, can’t bomb, can’t go in on foot
They can leave…
Should Hamas be rewarded for using their most vulnerable civilians as a shield like this?
Weird argument given that the presence of civilians isn’t slowing down the IDF at all. In fact they seem to have a ton of practice at killing civilians in Palestine. Not very good shields are they?
Since we are proposing questions here, I have one for you:
Where are civilians in Palestine supposed to go? You seem to think that its OK to slaughter them like pigs for going to a hospital. Where should the IDF NOT be allowed to butcher Palestinian children? Seriously, tell me one place that if an IDF bomb blows a bunch of people apart its a bad thing. Is there ONE SQUARE INCH of Gaza in which the IDF is not allowed to shoot a civilian in the face?
Asymmetrical warfare relies on keeping a civilian population between you and your enemy.
While we can’t 100% say they don’t have a command center underneath the hospital, Israel’s evidence so far has been fabricated. The video claims a random calendar is a guard shift list, for example.
Edit: Typo.
To be fair, the HM has said it’s a regular hospital shift calendar but hasn’t been able to explain why it starts on 10/7 and is titled with Hamas’ name for the attack. And it’s kind of hard to think of a valid reason, especially when considering all the other evidence along with it.
That’s even worse
Perhaps 1 baby step ahead of just blowing the hospital to pieces. But I’m going to watch for if they find even some of which they claimed was there.
