only fair enough, I remember when they made the US and UK do this after killing hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq
4.5 Million but yeah, glad that the USA and the UK got sanctioned after leading such a genocidal war. This restores my faith in the rules based order.
Can we please stop overusing the word genocide
Sorry, you’re right. In the absence of specific genocidal intent, the US and UK are only guilty of crimes against humanity, the crime of aggression, and various sundry war crimes.
Yes, correct. Now Saddam Hussein on the other hand…
Edit: oh you’re one of the hexbear people, jesus you people are insufferable
I agree with you and you resort to whataboutism in response. Somehow I’m the insufferable one?
Yikes.
Literally justifying the Iraq war while acting like we’re the assholes here, right
Saddam Hussein didn’t literally genocide kurdish people? Not saying that justifies a country halfway across the world to brutally occupy them, but it’s not like that didn’t happen.
Holy fucking shit.
After hand wringing the word in context of the US killing millions of people.
And we’re insufferable.
He did. He was also supported by the CIA during his times as a torturer of communists and as a dictator launching gas attacks.
Yes, but that is not a valid reason to justify the war because an autonomous Kurdish zone had already been set up after the Anfal in 1992. The only way Iraqi troops got in there is when the KDP invited them in during the Kurdish Civil War from 1994-7. Then once that was mediated and the KRG was split into two the Iraqi Army was no longer allowed in. The only real change 2003 brought was the legalising and formal institutionalisation of the KRG such that foreign capital was more willing to invest in it (encouraged, in fact, as the US tried to rebuild Iraq to stabilise things) and it had a big shiny “legal” sticker on it. The realities on the ground didn’t change though, especially as the constitutional articles surrounding referendums on Kirkuk and other disputed areas never came to fruition.
So by 2003 the Kurdish Question in Iraq had not been solved, but it had certainly been pacified in intensity, because a de facto independent KRG already existed!
I get what you’re saying, though. Yes, Saddam was an abhorrent and awful leader who was a genocidaire. However, the war was still an illegal catastrophe based on falsehoods that made things drastically worse for the Iraqi people. It is unjustifiable even when you take Saddam’s terrible-ness into account.
Yeah killing millions of people was totally worth getting one man!
Now let’s bomb Washington DC to rubble and kill your family so we can get to Bush, the even bigger war criminal.
Did I say I think we should have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan?
Nah you just pearl clutched when we called Western Powers bad names.
I’m loosely in favor of restricting the use of the word genocide to when it’s definitionally appropriate myself, but that’s in the context of effective communication and clarity. So long as “genocide” is going to be used exclusively to refer to US State Department desginated enemies only, then it’s perfectly reasonable to liken the US/France/UK’s horrific foreign interventions genocide as well. Western interventions, both formal and clandestine, have killed many more than anyone else those imperialist fucks have accused of the word, so in the interest of showing just how absurd their usage is yes, we should and can call Western powers genocidal too.
I mean I do agree with you (as a genocide studies scholar in training, God willing!), but I think your view of the US as just a clumsy, misguided oaf doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is not accurate. It was never the case that the US tried to build a democratic government and failed-from the very start the US instilled Bremer (that idiot) as a dictator; he openly restricted freedom of the press, freedom of speech and association, and had people critical of the CPA arrested. Then afterwards the US tried to interfere in the elections to support Allawi but failed miserably. The CIA and the US embassy has always had a huge role in the picking of Iraqi Prime Ministers and other ministers and has never stopped quashing Iraqi self-determination and democratic will. Just look at what they supported Maliki through!
Thank you for your well informed comment, the whole thing was indeed a clusterfuck and you know more than me. What are you doing on that godforsaken instance?
I am a socialist and it is nice to be among socialists, put simply. I disagree with plenty of them on many issues but honestly I have not found people rude or mean to me-indeed, even less so than on liberal forums e.g., reddit. Plus there is an energetic solidarity and support for marginalised ppl (I am disabled + poor + mentally ill) that you do not get in most communities because I feel they understand more so the structural roots behind these marginalisations (since they are socialists!).
Also I was on hexbear since the start (the migration from /r/cth to chapo.chat) and I don’t really know what Lemmy is lol.
Post shit get hit. We welcome informed folks, well meaning curious questions, and fellow travelers with open arms. Sanctimonious liberals get the hog.
Also you: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1081955
When you say it like that sure, except they also deny the Uyghur genocide and ignore the fact that China has their internet walled off and heavily censored/policed.
Basically they’re so pro-communism that they looped back around and are now pro-fascists and drink the Kool aid. Not to mention the fact that China is only communist in name lol
Monday: china is fascist
Tuesday: china is communist
Wednesday: china is communist in name only
Thursday: china is corporatist
Friday: china is state capitalist
Saturday: china is just authoritarian
Sunday: china is just totalitarian
Yes this is me, thank you for advertising my accurate comment. China is indeed targeting and concentrating minorities into camps.
Does not seem like words have meanings. All the nuance in your tank is reserved for the constant America-led warmongering in the middle east with a death toll in millions, many more displaced, and known torture sites like Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and god known how many more black sites. Meanwhile the Uyghur are unequivocally being genocided despite ZERO CONFIRMED CASUALTIES four years into the news cycle. So your litmus test for genocide seems to be
despite the emphasis on words having meaning.
astral_avacado said elsewhere that the Iraq Invasion was just “misguided” so its definitely a case of
with how they decide what is and isn’t a genocide.
Calling that genocide is holocaust denial.
Stop hiding behind pathetic labels, you are in bed with fascists.
The UN disagrees with you
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lets call it unsolicited special underage child pregnancy operation
This is basically word for word what I was going to post.
You’re not wrong, but just because the USA and UK got away with it doesn’t mean we should continue to let others get away with it. We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.
Can you even manage in a fever dream to think that this would set a precedent that would result in the US ever getting punished?
Punished for what? Throwing money and military support towards everyone when they need it? Oh, that. Right. As always, hating the USA is what the cool kids do these days. Until they need taxpayer money or military support. I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
Me too! It would be an incredible turn of events that would massively benefit the world. Could you throw in removing the blockades on Cuba and the DPRK and others while you are at it?
Punished for what?
COOL. GO AHEAD.
Lmao, the US, simultaneously the strongest and coolest country in the world and a cucked nation that can be bullied by even the smallest african country into giving away free protection.
I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
Boring bullshit
Are you guys from hexbear all 14 or something? I see a bunch of you posting infantile memes in response to criticism.
they also assume everyone else is from the US and heartily supports imperialism somehow
What support do you think you give? The “support” you give is either A) The cost of running your own propaganda, and paying target-nation actors. B) Weapons you buy from your own capitalists. C) Bribes in exchange for target-nation puppets to exploit their own people for the benefit of your capitalists. There is no fourth category.
The fourth category should be: none of the above.
it’s just a coincidence that this stuff only ever starts with our state enemies huh? only the bad countries get sanctioned for doing the same things we/our allies do. only Russia has to compete with neutral flags. only African leaders get prosecuted in the ICC.
it’s all nonsense used to manufacture consent for war and military spending
“Not arresting this black man for possession of 0.01 grams of weed isn’t going to go back in time and punish all those white guys we let go despite possessing much more weed. Cuff him, boys.”
Russia competes with neutral flags because they can’t stop doping. It has nothing to do with us vs them. They literally can’t stop cheating.
every single athlete at the olympics is doping
Source?
I’ve tasted all their piss and it all tastes the same.
Most honest hexbear enjoyer
Common sense?
Have you played sports before? Even at the high school level teenagers are pumping their body full of steriods. I saw them do it myself, I’ve heard the stories from my friends who played rugby. Just look at top high school rugby or american football teams physiques, or at the cardio capacity of teenage track and field athletes. You really think that level is attainable without performance enhancing drugs, at such a widespread level? You really think that stops once these athletes become adults? How about the fact that all of Usain Bolt’s competition got caught doping? You can’t be this gullible. Seriously, read the article I’ve linked below.
https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/
Russia’s sin here was official state involvement, not doping. As long as you pass the drug tests, nothing matters. Remember that Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test. Does that mean he’s a clean athlete? Of course not, and neither was any of his competition. The same applies to the Olympics, the same applies to almost all competitive sports.
So no proof? That’s what I figured.
I did play sports. None of us took anything.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
There is nothing that makes cycling significantly different from any other sport in terms of the advantages of doping, the testing for it, or the means of evasion.
I didn’t realize that list contained every cyclist and Olympian.
This mentality is why we should crack down harder, not softer. Cheating is eroding the public’s confidence in fair competition.
Then why is Russia so bad it then? They constantly get caught.
The United States are the GOATs of state sponsored and planned doping at the Olympics. Many of the involved doctors have talked about it in the decades since the '84 Olympics.
Why are we letting the people responsible for Iraq and Afghanistans current state get away with it? Like if the US wants to arrest a war criminal Bush and Cheney are right there. Same for Blair, or Harper, or any of the other architects of the invasions.
Because bourgeoisie law does three things. Firstly it protects capital against individuals. Secondly it protects itself against individuals so it can maintain “order”. Finally, it prevents capital against itself, to prevent it devouring itself in competition or sucking hard enough to create a revolutionary populace. Protecting individuals against each other or against capital is not the purpose of law enforcement, much less protecting people from war criminals. (Btw if anyone can find the parenti lecture this was based off, please tell me because i forget)
I’m not saying they should get away with it, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t let Russia get away with it because the United States and the UK got away with it. It’s like the Boomer argument that it’s not fair to them for student loans to be forgiven because they had to pay.
Would you support a policy of student loan forgiveness for only white people?
What kind of stupid ass comment is this?
It’s not your standard stupidity, it’s Hexbear Premium Brand Stupidity.
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What the fuck is wrong with you?
Do you not understand why I said that? I would not support student loan forgiveness only for white people because, while I like student loan forgiveness, I can recognize that such a program would ultimately just be in the interest of white supremacy. I wouldn’t pull the disingenuous liberal line of “you’ve gotta start somewhere” as though the policy was tethered to some imaginary future state that it is nominally more similar to but practically much further from.
Likewise, saying “well, at least by holding Belarus to account some countries will be held to account, which gets us closer to all countries being held to account!” is absurd. It promotes western dominance, not the abstract idea of “holding countries to account”. Striking only one side saying that it’s closer to both sides being struck than striking zero sides would be is sophistry.
I’m not sure where in the world you live, but for myself, I’m in a western country. It would be far more easy for my country to hold the architects of the Afghanistan invasion to account than Putin. The fact that my government doesn’t indicates that all the talk of punishing Russia has nothing to do with punishing aggression, it’s just about punishing a rival
It’s actually far easier to hold putin to account than western leaders - the western hegemony is hardly going to turn on itself, but it can easily send arms to Ukraine.
That this arming of ukraine is for completely self interested reasons doesn’t mean it also has the side effect of helping a country fight tyranny. A good thing done for bad reasons can still be a good thing.
Also, if the western countries will get paid for the help afterwards, that’d be an almost free win
You’re trying to say by implication that the ship has sailed on Bush and Obama, but they’re still alive. The USA Olympics team is still around. Even if you should’ve banned them in 1890 doesn’t mean you still can’t. They haven’t apologised, paid reparations, or ceased any of their human rights violating projects.
Why are we letting China get away with it? Why are we letting Saudi Arabia get away with it? The IOC is a toaster and it’s like you’re asking it to make you a whole roast dinner. It can’t even make toast properly…
I’m not asking for anything, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in calling for punishing Russia for war crimes when in every respect the US and her vassals have committed and are committing orders of magnitude more violence in the last couple decades
“Just because we let the world’s most prolific serial killer get away with it doesnt mean he shouldnt be allowed to keep murdering if he pinky swears his victims really deserve it this time.”
We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.
We are in total agreement here, and we can start by seizing the levers of power, purging the government of capitalists, withdrawing all troops from everywhere and using them for reforestation work, dismantling the IMF, paying reparations to every country we’ve victimized, and putting every fossil fuel executive and lobbyist against the wall for their omnicidal crimes against all terrestrial life.
Damn this sounds great to me. When do we start?
but we’ve got to start somewhere.
Somehow we always seem to be starting with US geopolitical enemies, never the US itself, despite literal centuries of heinous crimes.
Curious how that works.
Holy fuck the sarcasm lol
The nazis hosted the olympics, no imperialist war has ever stopped the olympics from letting someone compete. Even in the worst possible interpretation of Russia’s actions in Ukraine, barring them from the Olympics for it would be an entirely new precedent.
The last several Olympics haven’t they competed under a different flag because all the cheating they keep getting caught for? Sure, everyone knows they’re Russian, but it wasn’t the Russian flag or anthem. They competed as the Russian Olympic Committee.
All true. None of it related to human rights abuses or wars, which the IOC has typically not cared much about.
Russia is a fascist state. You are a fascist for supporting it.
Y’all will take the most lukewarm, neutral, fair takes on topics related to this issue and call it “support for Russia” is incredible. |
Nowhere, anywhere in op’s comment did she say that she supports Russia.
Ukraine is a fascist state. You are a fascist for supporting it.
do u support ukraine
It feels weird to be the one to break this to you, but the nazis are widely considered to be fascists too. Some would say they were even a lil bit worse than Russia on the goosestepping front.
Lol but western athletes aren’t fascists for not boycotting the event that Russia participating in? Seems like they have more power and influence than an internet poster
Finally, some dignity and respect for human rights at the Olympics.
walks past barricade that hides homeless people
Every Olympics (and world cup) presages the mass brutalization of vulnerable people, and I gotta wonder: do people really care that much about shotput?
Putting a lot of trust in some notion of integrity on noted good organisation, the IOC, here
Ukraine should perform under the flag of Bandera
the red and black one deeply associated with the far right, you mean?
The joke is that that represents their awful state ideology
correct, if a state allows for the hosting of fascism it is inheritly fascist.
Fun fact: flag, in Spanish, means “bandera”.
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It’s the etymology of that name actually, italian word for flag (also bandera) got adopted in many slavic countries.
Lmao at whoever downvoted you. Do they disagree? Show your face coward!
Do you realise that upvotes and downvotes are public, and you can see who upvoted and downvoted something?
They’re visible in Kbin’s UI, but not Lemmy’s.
I was just shit posting. I’ve read that it’s logged, but I’m not aware of where I would find this if it is publicly available.
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Is that a big bargaining chip or something? The presence of the Ukrainian Olympic team?
No serious athlete will want mickey mouse medals if the real competition isn’t there.
I mean, having Ukraine boycott the Olympics isn’t a great look for the Olympics.
The IOC is not a great look for the Olympics. The organisation is cancerous, just like FIFA
didnt a bunch of people boycott it when china was hosting it?
Yeah because the Olympic committee are a bunch of idiots. They keep saying that the Olympics are not political, while being obviously political.
Allowing China to host was a political decision. It showed support for China, no matter how much the Olympic committee said it didn’t.
Morons the lot of them.
Ukraine having a normal one
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RT is propaganda
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All news is propaganda.
No.
Doesn’t Russia already perform under neutral flags because of the doping?
They should just be banned entirely. How many doping scandals does it take? The presence of their athletes is all Russia cares about. They’ll Photoshop in some flags and parade it around state TV.
I don’t think that’s fair to the athletes. They have all worked super hard to make it to the olympics and they shouldn’t be banned because of their birthplace.
I don’t think it’s fair to the other athletes who also worked super hard to make it to the Olympics. It’s not a prestigious competition if it’s full of cheaters.
They are not allowed to represent their birthplace because the birthplace actively financing and supporting systematic doping. That is not the same as they are being banned.
I have no understanding for why you want to represent that.
Why should doping even be illegal? You sound a lot like chuds talking about trans athletes
Competition will never be perfectly fair, Michael Phelps is a genetic freak who’s just better at swimming than most people but he’s still allowed to compete
Doping is illegal because it represents a serious risk to the health of athletes to get into a PED arms race
To be fair doping is literally cheating and causing further damage to already exploited athletes, where as being trans just makes you cool as hell
Countries and contestants have all agreed that doping is not allowed. If you promise something and have no intention to keep the promise you are in fact a liar.
There has been, and probably still is, a government funded doping program in Russia. So not only have their contestants been proved to be cheaters, Russia has been caught sponsoring it all too.
So while you like to derail this discussion towards on whether doping should be allowed or not it still doesn’t change the fact that Russia actively promoted cheating.
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We should also ban Russian cats from Cat Beauty Pageants while we’re at it because fuck them cats.
All countries use doping, some are better to hide it.
Source?
No source, but past evidence of scandals ( 100 mt quite eveery record by doped athletes ). Some athletes are breeded like cattles ( see the history of a famous chinese basketball player )
The original Olympic truce required everyone to lay down their arms. It would go against the spirit to selectively enforce this. Not that the IOC actually cares about the legacy of the games, they tried to remove wrestling at one point.
Now we’re up to $900 per US household for this Ukraine stuff. Let’s throw a few more bucks at it to buy flags. Great use of taxpayer dollars. Sure, Jan.
Most of which are armament that the US government already had in its arsenal. You’ve spent the money and now those missiles are actually in use instead of being hold in storage. I’m actually more interested in that 900 USD amount, where did you read or hear that exact number?
- Missiles being used to kill people in an endless stalemate is actually worse than them sitting in a box
- The people sending those missiles to Ukraine are going to buy more to replace them
- They’re also going to charge Ukraine for the missiles and insist the country sell off state assets for pennies on the dollar to make payments
Maybe it’s high time to overhaul that thinking and stop having a ridiculous military budget.
Holy shit, it’s so high because it gets used constantly.
You’re literally here supporting the use of it
Liberal thinkers are epic
Who said I preferred it killing people half way across the world instead of rotting in storage
I don’t know how this brain genius talking point got so popular.
So things don’t cost money when you already spent money on them? …You don’t think those stocks are going to be replenished having been depleted?
Wonder why they never apply that logic to housing…
Then it suddenly costs money!
Because it has a point, albeit not perfect. Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?
Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it, but this is not the best version of the world, honestly. As you said, it’s your money. Are you okay with it?
Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it
Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?
Yes? But this seems like a non sequitur.
You see, we will reduce our military budget by using more weapons. This makes sense in the liberal mind
And now we have to replenish those arsenals… they absolutely will be replenished.
Like, if you give all the food in your cupboard to someone, no one would consider that “free”. You have to buy more food!
This argument seems so foolish I can hardly believe anyone actually thinks this way.
I’d rather the companies in my country stop selling those armaments to the US, actually. Maybe this is a good time to review your military budget and ask your government why you have it in the first place?
The same imperial government that lied to its people and provoked a land war in Europe?
The same one you’re legitimizing in fueling that conflict by implying it’s free?
Yeah let me call up my boy Biden and tell him no more bombs while you point and laugh at me from behind
This Ukraine stuff is a war where 100.000 war crimes were reported, tens of thousands of civilians were killed raped and tortured, where hundreds of thousands of people lost their house.
I wouldn’t say it’s $900 per household because
- It’s from the defense federal budget, that you would’ve spent anyways
- The aid packages, expressed in dollars, are the sum of the value of the equipment sent to Ukraine, in vast majority which US already had
- The defence budget is there to be able to stand against the strongest adversaries: China and Russia. USA basically annihilated one of their enemies’ army without a single drop of blood.
You must be joking, 100K war crimes??? 10K rapes??? This isn’t Rwanda.
You haven’t heard of hyperbole, clearly. But it’s not far from the truth. Russia commits war crimes every day. It’s all their military is good for. They can’t fight a real force, so they blow up and murder civilians instead. To claim otherwise is misinformed at best, actively dishonest at worst.
Ok, Jen! 😂 I guess those leopards and bradleys blew up by themselves…
Oh, Jen 🤣 those kindergartens blew up by themselves
You mean the one that Ukrainian Mi-17 fell on to? Or the one hit by an AD Ukrainian missile? 🤷🏼
The government of Ukraine reports 103.325 war crimes, 9444 killed civilians, 16940 injured civilians. (war.ukraine.ua). You may legitimately considered these numbers inflated by the Ukrainian government, for this reason I can redirect you to the Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine containing plentiful of references and sources.
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Why do you think the Ukrainians are Nazi? You’re clearly failing to understand that having a Nazi problem (like any country) does not imply the government is Nazi. You have seen images of men with their tattooed arms right? How does it mean that the government is Nazi? It’s Kremlin’s propaganda to discredit Ukrainians. Go see the polls and see how many far-right parties got (2%).
I linked a Wikipedia page, so there’s no need to “believe” as the war crimes are documented.
Now look at who’s committing genocide, deportations and tortures.
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This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia. We’re talking about potentially getting rid of Putin’s regime and it’s being done without sending any of our troops to die. The help Ukraine is getting isn’t charity, look at the bigger picture.
without sending any of our troops to die
what about all the people from other countries
If foreigners are people then why can’t they vote in our elections?
Checkmate tankie.
Never mind all the US vets that died over there lmfao
This person just outing themself as craving the sending of Ukrainians into the fucking meatgrinder. The sheer disregard for human life is disgusting
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GOOD post
Though I personally don’t know who of the two evils would be the worse win in the long run, yes, agreed, very much this.
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good thoughtful post
Absolutely fair point, you may well be right. I pretty much agree on all points.
If Putin is overthrown the people most likely to overthrow him are hardliners who think he’s being a cuck by not immediately nuking Kiev and Washington.
You do realize that America already overthrew Russia’s government once, and that is how Putin came to be in the first place, right? You expect cycle #2 to go better?
Lmao. I’m sure they’ll overthrow the government, just like the Americans did to their own government after invading Vietnam and Iraq. Have you seen what the Russian government is doing to mild protestors? Black bagged, sent off to who knows where, doing who knows what. It’s Kent State by like 500x. This isn’t 1980s USSR. The people there support Putin. And those who don’t and protest are still denounced by the west for not doing enough, as if westerners have ever succeeded in holding their governments accountable.
The most realistic outcome is that Putin resigns in disgrace and 20 years later they make shoot and cry movies about Russian soldiers in Ukraine. And then they’ll rehabilitate Putin as a strong leader anyway.
Putin has more support than ever…
For gods sake try to imagine this from a Russian perspective. NATO bombs are killing their people.
Like, seriously, imagine how your average American would react to this. Treat the Russians as human for one fucking second.
They are not going to fucking blame Putin for that. They will blame NATO!!!
We’re talking about potentially getting rid of Putin’s regime and it’s being done without sending any of our troops to die.
The people surrounding Putin who are most likely to replace him are hardliners who think Kiev should be glassed. Part of the motivation behind the Wagner mutiny is Prigo thinking Shoigu isn’t going hard enough in Ukraine. Contrary to liberal bots who only listen to what CNN tells them, it’s good for everyone involved that the Wagner mutiny was completely deflated. There wouldn’t be much of a Ukraine left if Prigo was in charge, and Prigo is not the only one.
This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia
time is a flat circle
This is the most important proxy war of our lifetime!
We are killing the Russians to help the Russians
Once again a westoid proves Ukrainian lives don’t matter to them.
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Just ban Russia and Belarus from participating FFS. Don’t even let them in under neutral flags.
In principle I agree but considering the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel are participating in all competitions without any sanctions I don’t see why we should be making a special case for Russia.
I was thinking more along the lines of how the burger regime could use it as a part of a full spectrum warfare strategy. I’d much rather see the burger regime get burnt by something like this, but I suspect it and its NATO pawns have more influence over such things than Russia or Belarus do.
Like in ancient Greece when the city states would join together only if they didn’t have any conflicts and participate in the games to build a commonality between those who were allies
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Phrasing
Here’s the neutral flag:
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