I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
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a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide
Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.
No.
I worry what will happen if Trump wins or loses. If he wins, it will be terrible. If he loses, he will claim he won again and he will try another insurrection, but harder.
Don’t care, still not voting for either genocidal imperialist
So you’re voting for tRump, got it
implying that not voting for le chosen candidate means you’re voting for orange man
It’s not an implication that’s literally how the American system is designed? I’m so confused as to how you think it works?
Does voting for Libertarians instead of Trump count as a vote for Biden?
If you were going to vote for Trump instead of the libertarian then kind of yes.
You can’t answer my question, can you?
I’m not the one you asked. You stated that not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, but that’s not accurate, just like voting Libertarian is not a vote for Biden instead of Trump.
I say this as someone currently planning on voting for Biden: try to work with Leftists, rather than trying to shame them, if you want their vote.
That’s nice but still doesn’t answer my question.
It’s a good time to not be American and not having voting for one of those pricks on your conscience
Jill Stein and Cornel fucking West are also on the ballot.
I’ve had “leftists” here on lemmy act like Stein and West are legitimate candidates. She hasn’t gotten any traction any other time she’s run and I’m not sure why this time would be any different.
If you can get on enough ballots to win, you’re a legitimate candidate.
I agree, unfortunately .036% isn’t a winning percentage.
The traction she got in 2016 is the reason we’re having this conversation.
Oh, I was having the conversation because of her failed run in 2012.
It’s a bad time to not be an American because that country holds far too much sway over the rest of the world and you can’t even help picking the lesser poison.
Yo you kids can’t behave, I will look this now, it’s Easter and I don’t want to have this burning here
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza.
maybe it will stop the next one though
if democrats learn that allowing a genocide to unfold on their watch is going to lose them elections, you can bet they’ll put more effort into stopping it
if democrats learn that allowing genocide to unfold on their watch actually doesn’t make that much difference, why would they bother themselves to stop it?
A vote is not an unconditional endorsement
a vote for a candidate is an endorsement for all of their policies, whether you want it to be or not
your reluctant vote looks exactly the same on the tally as somebody else’s wholehearted vote, and votes are what politicians base their platforms on.
If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
this is just a misconception
if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they’re going to modify their policies next time around
next time
Woah, calm down buddy. No reason why there should be a next time. Republicans are already creating projects as if there isn’t.
if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that
just understand the choice you’re making, rather than pretending one doesn’t exist
We understand we are voting for the candidate who realizes and disapproves of Israel’s treatment of Gaza (the other one would triple down and encourage it harder) as well as the candidate who supports Ukraine (the other one would give it to putin for free) and also the candidate who won’t genocide LGBT community within our own country.
Anyone who doesn’t vote Biden does not care about Gaza. Not at all. They’re just virtue signaling and afraid to admit they want to vote for Trump.
That’s absolutely terrible analysis. Just because you personally believe something doesn’t mean leftists that disagree with you want to vote directly for a fascist, and I say that as a leftist that is probably going to vote for Biden. I’m just not delusional about it, Biden hasn’t stopped the genocide at all when everyone knew it was a genocide months ago.
Yeah, it always strikes me as being super in bad faith when people accuse leftists of supporting Trump if we don’t pledge undying support to Biden. Keep that shit in places like reddit and lemmy.world imo (and actually, don’t even keep it there either because it’s bullshit)
Biden has taken months to stop veto-ing UN votes on Gaza, and even when finally abstaining, his administration pulls its punches by claiming the vote is somehow “non-binding”.
Israel is still bombing Gaza, even after the ceasefire vote.
Biden says he cares about Gaza. His actions say otherwise.
He’s currently gambling that he can have his cake and eat it too, ie continue supporting Israel as a valuable foothold for the American Empire in the Middle East while also paying lip service to leftists.
We need to make sure he actually feels the heat of his actions and that they may cost him the election for him to meaningfully cease aid to Israel.
Republicans trying to dismantle democracy and install an authoritarian government?
Sounds serious.
So when are democrats dropping gun control? Clearly there is a imminent existential threat to our nation!
The United States won’t be destroyed by a handful of people not getting off their collective ass on election day and 3rd parties aren’t viable.
3rd parties aren’t viable
this is just a misconception
if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they’re going to modify their policies next time around
Yeah and meanwhile Trump wins and we’re all fucked. Just keep patting yourself on the back as we all sink. The OP is absolutely correct.
Don’t be fooled, this is absolutely the angle foreign disinformation agents are pushing. “Genocide Joe” is no different than “Bernie or Bist”, he’ll, or “Stop the steal”
Don’t be fooled, this is absolutely the angle foreign disinformation agents are pushing. “Genocide Joe”
I don’t think this has any proof.
Lol political threads at night on lemmy are good proof. So weird how at night, all of lemmy is suddenly not liking the idea of voting for Biden, or voting 3rd party, when during regular American hours it’s not the case. You’d have to be pretty ignorant or even part of the disinformation to not notice
if this were true it would be trivial to provide links
Literally look at this comment section: people are discouraging voting for Joe biden. What could the result be if everybody listened except that Trump would win the election? How does that even make sense if you care for the people in Gaza to get a new president that wants Isreal to “hurry up and finish up in Gaza”?
“oh but Biden isn’t perfect! The democratic party should only have a perfect candidate!” That’s not how real life works, and especially not the crappy voting system the US has. Either you help Biden wins the presidency, where he is at least trying to discourage Israel from further violence, or where Trump wins and he will continue to give Israel a thumbs up.
“but Genocide!” Yeah these are shitting options, but do you want more Genocide or less? There’s only one path with the potential for less genocide and not voting or voting for trump will only incur more of it.
Foreign operative detected. Get some sleep, comrade.
“Foreign oligarchs are taking over!” - US oligarchs probably
Sounds like passing comprehensive electoral reform is not only the right thing to do, but it is also crucial to the stability of the country. Republicans obviously hate democracy, and have passed legislation trying to ban switching away from first past the post voting. Do you REALLY want to use the same voting system republicans want? What’s the excuse blue states?
Consider watching a video on First Past the Post voting if you want to know more.
if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that
just understand the choice you’re making, rather than pretending one doesn’t exist
Anyone that isn’t voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
If i’m being realistic with myself the reason I won’t vote is because it’s futile. The USA like to give you the illusion of choice and “Democracy” while at the same time having the most undemocratic two-party system any civilized nation can have. Going through the process of voting for either a genocider or a fascist is a waste of my time, and that time can be spent playing another game of league or whatever, at least I’ll have some fun. America won’t change because of my vote, or any of your votes. America will change because of coordinated, collective action from unions and when people decide to eat the rich.
And i’d even argue that refusing to vote IS democratic and not necessarily evil. Biden committed a genocide, he needs to feel the consequences of a disinterested and conflicted democratic base.
I’m voting for the people I most like on the ballot. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?
No, not in FPTP. You vote for the candidate who you least disagree with out of those with a reasonable chance of victory, or you waste your vote.
FPTP stands for First Past The Post voting for anyone wondering what the acronym means.
So… by voting my conscience I don’t get a vote? I was literally brought up with the idea that if enough people pressure one of the parties one way or the other they might start embracing your ideas. And that was supposed to be how this worked.
vote for the person you like the most
voting for the democrats come hell or high water is how you end up with two candidates nobody wants to vote for
You were lied to. It should work that way but it doesn’t, and that -really- sucks.
But now what do you do with that understanding? Do you continue to try and will the lie into being, or do you act according to the truth?
The time to advance your ideas is everywhen except the presidential election, basically. At this timing, voting your conscience will really only be contributing to the spoiler effect.
why on earth would any party listen to what you have to say if you preface everything you’re campaigning for with “by the way, i’m still going to vote for you”
your vote is all they want in this scenario
it would be like opening a negotiation with “by the way, i’m absolutely going to pay whatever price you think is fair at the end of this, but i’d like you to consider giving me a discount anyway”
There are other elections, primaries, donations, and general social pressure. The sad part is you’re right, committing to vote for the lesser evil every time does reduce pressure and influence. However, it’s not a flaw in the voting strategy, it’s a flaw in the voting system.
The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance, in which case you end up with the greater evil in office who has four years to inflict permanent damage on people and further corrupt the system. You may show the less-evil party that you don’t agree with them and that they need to rethink some policies, but the point is moot if they aren’t in power and now the greater evil can do things like appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting “reform” to lessen the impact of your future votes. Your message is sent, yes, but the overall impact is bad for everyone and reduces your future influence.
In a FPTP system, that’s the sad reality we are given. There really is no better choice than to vote for the lesser evil in the presidential election. That’s why ranked choice voting would be such a game changer, then you truly can vote for your favorite without helping your least favorite gain office.
You have more influence the smaller the election is, which is partly why it’s so important to vote in every election, especially your local elections. Local elections also more directly impact your community and broad elections are impacted by them too! Nearly all higher-up politicians start local, and the larger parties look to local elections to see what gets people out to vote. Plus, if you hate all of your options in a local election, it’s much more possible to run yourself and actually have a change at winning. You aren’t just voting for candidates either, there’s almost always projects, new laws, and funding allocations to vote for locally.
other elections, primaries
but those are both votes
ideally, yeah, if you wanted to exercise pressure on the biden administration, you wouldn’t withhold your vote in this specific election, but those “other elections” have already passed
you could vote differently for the house and senate, but arguably that might actually lead to a worse outcome
donations
if you’re very rich, then maybe, but most people aren’t
general social pressure
general social pressure means very little without votes to back it up
sanders has a tidal wave of social pressure behind him, but then lost the primary, so nothing changed
it’s why every time a politician tries to campaign for young voters, they crash and burn, because while young voters often inflict the most social pressure, they never actually go and vote
The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance
the point isn’t to vote for the person to get them into office
the point is to vote for the person whose policies you prefer, so that you shift the other candidates closer to that position
yeah, 4 years of a very bad candidate is worse than 4 years of a meh candidate, but if you vote that way forever your candidate will never be anything more than meh
appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting “reform” to lessen the impact of your future votes
if you think this outweighs the benefit of improving the democrat position going forward, and that’s a perfectly reasonable position to have, then sure vote for them
but don’t act like you never had any choice in the matter, or that voting for somebody else would be meaningless
I don’t have millions of dollars to advance my ideas, all I have is my vote.
I’m sorry, that is a ridiculous statement, but I’m not awake enough to go into it in detail. Hoping someone else can help if you were being sincere.
In the primaries but not the general
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
Not advocating for voting third partu, but how do you genuinley plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?
This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:
You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.
We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.
This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.
The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.
Sorry I wasn’t clear - I’m saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.
There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that’s politics. But giving up on it isn’t an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you’re hoping for change, it’ll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.
The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.
No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.
I’m sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I’m going to ask you a question.
What exactly is y’alls game plan then? How do you think you’ll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?
Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.
What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they’ll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?
That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?
You’re basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you’re parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.
Politics isn’t easy but ‘burn it down because they’re not catering to me’ is not a responsible vote this year.
When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You’re repeating yourself here.
I don’t know what you’re even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it’s something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.
This ‘cater to me or else’ sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you’re passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.
You’re wrong on quite a few things here.
How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?
It’s not nihilism, it’s not liberalism, and it’s not “cater to me or else,” that’s pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.
Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?
You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.
I lost my reproductive freedoms
I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans
Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.
The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east
How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.
Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.
I’m sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this
no, no… i think they’re onto something
It’s clear y’all are trolls at this point
This is my question too. I’m old (Gen X), and I’ve never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.
The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of “good” and “evil” people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.
Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that’s how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.
Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.
It’s not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that’s where they get their votes! That’s why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn’t, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.
I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.
Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that’s all I’m saying, haha.
I think “Marx had some good ideas” is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
Agreed.
Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
It’s never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it’s a long process and if you can’t see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don’t know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we’re going to continue on that path.
We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win votes is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?
When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?
I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but
I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.
Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.
Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.
Me when I don’t understand what the house and senate are.
People think we have lived in a world of Democrats vs. Republicans. However, it’s always been a case of the rich vs. the not rich. The rich always wins, the rich always supports the rich, and the rich doesn’t give a flying fuck about you if you’re not a millionaire or a billionaire. So we can argue over Trump vs. Biden until we’re blue in the face. And we all know Trump is a piece of shit, but if you think Biden will do anything in the next 4 years that he didn’t do the previous 4 years you are delusional. I will vote for Biden, but I understand the outcome. Anyone that thinks Biden will do shit for them is either rich or lying to themselves.
So! Much!! This!!!
I agree with you but can we please leave “This!” behind us?
Point taken. Reddit habits die hard.
Not voting is not a statement that either or is okay. Not voting sends a clear signal that you don’t want voting rights, you don’t believe in people having voices in how they are ruled.
