For those unfamiliar, GrapheneOS is a privacy and security enhanced custom ROM endorsed by Snowden. Despite these big names, plenty of people give it backlash
Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
One of the reasons is that GrapheneOS can only be installed on Google Pixels due to security compatibility, which makes complete sense considering Android should be most compatible with Google’s own devices. GrapheneOS even lists the exact reasons they chose Pixels, and encourage people to step up and manufacture a different supported device.
One year ago, Louis Rossmann posted this video outlining his reasons for deleting GrapheneOS. Mainly, he had multiple bad experiences with Daniel Micay (the founder and main developer of GrapheneOS) which put his distrust in the GrapheneOS project. Since then, he has stepped down and will no longer be actively contributing to the project.
So, I am here to learn why exactly people still do not like GrapheneOS.
I don’t hate the project but I do find its users to be among the most annoying within the privacy community. They seem to have absolutely zero understanding of threat modeling and will get very dismissive and condescending the moment you mention a project other than GrapheneOS.
I think this is likely just a result of GrapheneOS being the most well known privacy ROM; it’s just naturally going to attract the type of person who watches a single YouTube video on a topic and then acts like they are now an expert who deserves to be respected and listened to at all times. Sorry, but if all you can do is parrot dot points from the project’s website and spout some security theatre gobbledygook that has absolutely zero relevance to my personal situation then I’m probably not going to be taking any of your unwarranted advice.
GrapheneOS developers were literally harassing me! No cap. I highly suggest avoiding it.
Don’t worry, I don’t use it. I don’t like Pixels and I don’t need the security features of GrapheneOS. The level of privacy I require can also be achieved through many alternative projects that support a wider range of devices, including maintaining support for older devices instead of encouraging e-waste, and have communities that are more positive, welcoming and open-minded.
But as I said, if people need that level of security then go right ahead. I am certainly not opposed to its existence; only the attitude from many of its users that GrapheneOS is superior in every aspect and that if you don’t use it you’re somehow uneducated or naive.
I’m not sure how involved Micay still is with GrapheneOS, but he did seemingly talk in the name of the foundation this march in discussions of Mozilla Location Service being retired.
https://github.com/mozilla/ichnaea/issues/2065#issuecomment-2001175420
And he still feels the need to attack other projects. (Last paragraph)
https://github.com/mozilla/ichnaea/issues/2065#issuecomment-2002073168
If I had a Pixel I’d probably still try it, but not sure how well they’d like me rooting and customizing the device.
Basically because Daniel “MacCock” behaves like a massive paranoid schizophrenic prick when he doesn’t take very strong meds (that’s my take on it anyway). And as others have mentioned, his claim to have stepped down is just that, “his claim”. Everything points to him still very much being at the help of the project.
I like the project, but any software I use being directed by someone like that guy is a huge red flag.
I’m good with a project that’s concentrating on privacy being run by a paranoid fuck. If he’s pouring all his lunacy into making it as locked down as possible, seems like a good thing to me.
I particularly like the recent duress PIN code upgrade. Seems like something every OS should have in it. I don’t need some cops fucking around with my social media and banking info because I got stopped for jaywalking.
It’s not just paranoid, it’s totally toxic and aggressive. He attacked and verbally abused dozen of different project for naive reasons, and spread FUD and slanders about other developers and projects
I’m shocked that anyone can think that saying what you said here is ever okay.
The “claim” that you’re talking about was misinterpreted by so many people and warped by people who are hostile against GrapheneOS. The former lead developer only said that they were stepping down as the lead developer and another person would take over. They said it would take a long time for all of the duties to be transferred over to other people.
Daniel Micay and the GrapheneOS community are all insane shills. They are against FOSS, and feud with: F-Droid, Mozilla, Calyx Institute, FSF, Linux, Stallman, TechLore.
They shill for proprietary software like Google Play Services compared to MicroG because “IT BREAKS THE ANDROID SECURITY MODEL”, F-Droid because “IT BREAKS THE ANDROID SECURITY MODEL”, and shill for the Google Play Store (just create a burner Google account bro), Microsoft Windows (because they claim it’s safer than Linux because it doesn’t force the trusted computing environment) and constantly shit on FOSS projects.
Micay is a schizophrenic twitter and Matrix addict that spends his days on Twitter and on the Matrix room banning people because they are “trolls” (they complain about something that’s broken on GrapheneOS, he deletes all the messages and then bans the user) or searching for tweets containing CalyxOS or grapheneos on twitter that don’t mention him and DEBUNKING them, specially if it mentions CalyxOS in a good light or gives any criticism to him or his project, proceeded by claiming his community is always being brigaded by Calyx users.
Just search all his tweets (on grapheneos or danielmicay that mention calyx).
The guy has a huge persecution complex that every FOSS project or organization is out to get his project and himself (specially the cryptocurrency trolls, the farms and 4chan), so he’s always having a schizo meltdown on twitter.
His matrix room are full of schizos and bots that spend all day shilling for the aformentioned services.
They have a whole matrix channel dedicated to fighting “disinformation” about their OS. When a site mentions their crappy OS the link usually gets posted there and after a few hours threads get flooded by GrapheneOS fanboys shilling their system.
They also love censorship.
screenshotThose things do break the security model though. Theyre right about that.
If you care that much about “”“security”“” just sell your soul to apple. They will take good care of your data and provide world class security. I don’t know how even thinking about using google stuff in a foss rom is considered acceptable. You don’t need to go full Stallman, but I believe most people here don’t want to use google shit for some alleged “security”.
Security and privacy are not always aligned.
True, but grapheneos prioritizes security to an absurd level where they say stuff like how the google play store is better than f-droid. Of course this can be true, but there’s high chance the entire project is influenced by google.
Now that’s a paranoid take lmao
I’ve tried both CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, since I’ve had a Pixel already. I don’t consider one “better” than the other.
Calyx is based on LineageOS, so you get a wider range of devices and functionality. It uses microG, which works great as long you don’t use any apps with IAP.
GrapheneOS’ play service sandbox can handle the case though, so I went with that, not being able to live without MacroDroid pro. Plus I like they got rid of Google location services altogether, and functionality-wise I’m not missing anything either.
Other people will have other priorities or preferences when it comes to their devices. Use whatever tickles your pickle.
That’s good, choose what you’re comfortable with and what works for you. Everyone should do just that. We all have our own needs, priorities and threat models.
As I’ve said, I do like GrapheneOS, it is solid software in my opinion, but the humans behind it make me more paranoid than Samsung devices.
You are making too much sense. You need to choose a side or both communities will hate you.
GrapheneOS only works on Google hardware. Part of the advantage of Android is device variety, but GrapheneOS forces you down a narrow path. Want a rugged device, a headphone jack, microSD? Well Google doesn’t offer those so GrapheneOS can’t meet your device requirements.
I think part of the reason is there’s a chip that limits brute force attacks and it’s not in other phones
GrapheneOS has defined a set of security standards for their operating system which have hardware requirements. These standards have been published and there have been efforts to engage with hardware manufacturers to adopt the required hardware. Blame the manufacturers for skimping on security, rather than Graphene being unwilling to compromising their values.
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On top of it, they have lied about testing. https://i.imgur.com/woNxPhx.jpg
Yeah, no. Pretty sure that’s just a rando with GrapheneOS logo as their avatar. The way they talk doesn’t sound like the dev to me, and I also don’t think the dev would ever misspell a word like “cellular” as “cullar”.
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“What is this level of grand security…” Enumerated here: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
Once manufacturers can implement those things, then you will have an alternative to Google hardware for running Graphene. I’m not telling people to trust anything, don’t put words in my mouth.
Who is PrivacyPhones and why should I believe they are in any way affiliated with Graphene?
It would be possible to ship generic system images with separate updates for the device support code. However, it would be drastically more complicated to maintain and support due to combinations of different versions and it would cause complications for the hardening done by GrapheneOS.
Sounds like they could, but have resource limitations to do it. It’s also a knock against Google whose hardware has gotten worse. Personally, IDGAF about these project-imposed requirements if I can’t have the standard headphone jack on portable device.
What’s stopping the developer to put a backdoor in it and collaborate with the CIA and the NSA?
Nothing
Although it probably would be easier to attack the modem
That’s why the modem is isolated from the rest of the system through IOMMU: https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation
In my personal opinion, privacy-oriented distributions are more likely to be targeted by intelligence agencies, I prefer a mainstream debloated version at least that way you have the advantage of not attracting attention among so many millions of users. trusting your OpSec in the good will of someone it’s not a good idea, at least for me.
If depends on what you mean by “privacy centric”
Your logic is quite flawed.
privacy-oriented distributions are more likely to be targeted by intelligence agencies
Since GrapheneOS is based on Android (AOSP), any vulnerability that exists in Graphene definitely also exists in AOSP. Graphene is often faster at fixing security vulnerabilities than Google. GrapheneOS makes some substantial security improvements to AOSP, so the chance of a bug in AOSP being exploitable in Graphene is much lower.
trusting your OpSec in the good will of someone it’s not a good idea, at least for me
That’s literally what you’re doing with the stock OS. Since it’s proprietary, no one can actually verify what’s actually going on. You’re literally trusting a billion-dollar big tech advertising corporation that participates In the NSA PRISM program. What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.
The fact that the system is open source
Nothing. But what’s stopping you from checking out the source code?
A libre software license.
Ive never used it, but i like the idea. I light op en a wasp nest now, but what Alternatives do i have, ? Using Android phone, i still have a Windows phone in the shelf, van i flash it with a better alternative?
There are one or two accounts on Lemmy who seem to show up in every privacy or graphene thread and shit-talk GOS.
I say if there is something wrong with GOS or the code itself, identify it and prove it. The founder may have been “problematic” or whatever, but it doesn’t sound like that person is even associated with the project anymore.
I have personally daily-driven GOS for a year. It has worked well for me. I use a lot of FOSS apps. I use some traditional Play Store apps and avoid logging into Google and I manage permissions closely. I’d say GOS gives you options. Maybe some people would like other customized degoogled OS better, and that is fine. Just… for the love of all that is sacred, don’t use vanilla Googled Android.
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I just think it is a vessel for proprietary software and doesn’t protect my freedom.
There a certainly worse things to use but I like Lineage OS personally
I don’t understand your comment. Could you explain it a bit more?
TL;DR Lineage OS is fine as it pretty much anything else fossdroid
Is there any truth to the concern that Lineage could be hacked more easily than Graphene OS?
And what about how Graphene OS uses Pixels that have a chip that make brute-forcing hacking a locked device much harder?
Are those real things or just gimmicks? I really don’t know.
It depends on your threat model. However, I am skeptical of flashy security features. I haven’t heard of a case where Graphene saved a journalist or similar.
People who escape doom because of technological prowess don’t usual tell others out of risk of antagonizing an adversary and inviting more conflict.
I find the criticisms of the founder pretty seriously overblown. My interactions with him have always been positive. He’s on the spectrum and a lot of people engaged in pretty serious abuse toward him and the project he created… so I’ll give him some slack.
I’ve used GrapheneOS for 5 years. It’s good, the project has integrity, and there really isn’t anything that meaningfully compares in meeting its goals. It’s proactive in that they actually do meaningful security research and implement solutions. People who troll on the project are either straight up bad actors or just stupid.
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Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
It seems to me that you might be confusing things: You say that people hate the OS but share a comment complaining about the community of users/fans, not about the OS.
I have never used GrapheneOS and cannot comment on the OS, but I have seen some users in different communities commenting that GrapheneOS is the only valid alternative OS and discrediting any other OS. It becomes tiring pretty fast.
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Hey there, I’m sorry about this craziness. My comment was not really directed at you, but I was just quoting part of the original post that mentioned you.
I was trying to suggest that OP is confusing criticism of the GrapheneOS community with criticism of the OS. You make a good point and, as I pointed out, you were not criticising the OS, but the community. Not the same thing.
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I did some asking in the matrix prior to buying a google pixel and was pretty much told get a pixel or fuck off. There was one guy who gave actually helpful advice on other is options I had so i think its purely a community thing. Its unfortunate honestly i think any good faith criticism is an asset but unfortunatly the graphene community is too blind to see it that way.
I want criticism of it cos i want a better is that addresses said criticism I don’t see why some people can’t get that. Keep up the good work.
What other phones do you suggest that allow signing the ROM with my own key?
no way this is real
Oh, it is 🤣
Sorry for the pain. The internet is always harsh and being a moderator can be even more harsh. Please get help if you need it. I and many others would be happy to step in as a mod if you need R&R
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I don’t feel comfortable using google devices no matter what reasons they state. As a free software project-and the biggest one in the custom ROM space-it should offer the freedom for users to choose their own devices. A lot of users are fine with losing these supposed “security” reasons for getting away from google, and they would like to repurpose existing devices instead of buying new pixels. It’s almost like it’s a blatant way for selling google pixels. Oh and don’t get me started with the binary blobs.
You know how if you open any comment thread about Windows and 50% of the comments are smug, self-congratulary wanks saying “Just use Linux”?
Yeah mate, I’ve actually got a job, I don’t have time to Google how to get my graphics card to work every fuckin day, but I do have the brains to bypass everything shitty about Windows.
Open any thread about Android OS and replace the word “Linux” with “Graphene”
It’s not the OS people hate, it’s the users who can’t accept that both these OSs are only suitable for about 5% of the population
It’s not a good analogy. A better analogy might be a community that promotes a Linux distro that runs exclusively on Chromebook and claims that that is the ONLY private and secure way to use a computer.
Just use Linux
Can’t, got a job
There are stable distros that just work™. In the end, you need a certain amount of knowledge for both Windows and Linux, and even then, I can recognise that Linux isn’t universally suitable at the moment. I can easily do everything I need for work on it, but I’m a software dev. Friends who are artists can’t, sice the tools they need just don’t exist on Linux, and are difficult to get to run in tools like Wine.
The stability argument is a bit of a low hanging fruit though, especially if you simultaneously point at working around Windows issues, which most of the population probably doesn’t want to learn doing either.
just work™
[Citation needed], let’s be honest here. There are an infinite amount of use cases causing an infinite amount of problems, far far far more than on Windows, even after all these years
Well, it works for me and the people I have set it up for, which of course isn’t necessarily applicable to other people’s usecases.
I think I was mainly a bit miffed about your I use Windows because I actually need to get work done line because it felt like the same smug attitude you had been criticising. We all need to recognise that out experiences aren’t universally applicable.
We do have quite a few Linux evangelists on the platform, but i feel that’s kinda inherent to where lemmy as a platform came from. I think they are a bit silly, but making that a reason to not like a whole OS or ROM seems equally silly.
felt like the same smug attitude you had been criticising
Show me single thread about Linux where someone says “Just use windows”
The same attitude, not the same words. Both “I use Linux, that makes me better”, and “I use Windows because I actually need to get work done” seem rather smug to me.
It could of course be “I use Windows for my needs, but recognise that other might be happier with a different experience”, but to me it feels like “I am a serious adult, and they are not.”
I don’t like it because its not actually FOSS. It includes closed source software (Sandboxed Gservices, Android Auto, etc.) which completely defeats my main goal of wanting to take power away from big corpos. I dont want that to even be an option in an OS I’d recommend because if the easy way is there lazy people who dont care about their privacy will use it. Ive actually installed a few custom Roms for friends and their phones always end up with Insta/Snap/Discord installed and it just defeats the whole purpose…
For what it’s worth, GrapheneOS includes neither Google Play nor Android Auto. Like nearly any Android-based OS, it allows you to install apps of your choosing, but it does not include either of those. It is a FOSS project through and through.
Why are so many people so fast to downvote over a misconception? GOS does not include any Google anything, it does allow to install, but it is the most bare ROM out there in terms of pre-installed stuff, for sure.
I am not defending “MacCock” and his goons in any way, shape or form, I believe they are all certifiable, but misconceptions don’t help anyone either, which is why I chose to clarify this.
I don’t think Snowden’s endorsement is the positive you think it is. Even if you can ignore treason, he’s a pretty toxic person, by all accounts.
I do not like Graphene os as it is a vessel for proprietary software and anticonsumer practices. There are plenty of better options. For instance, Lineage OS runs on a large number of phones and is better in many ways.
Graphene OS also is kind of what I dislike about the cyber security industry. Many “cyber” people are filled with arrogance and overconfidence
Lineage OS is a shitshow when it comes to privacy and security
(no locked bootloader, using Google DNS by default)
From what I understand, GrapheneOS has the goals of bejng the best of the best when it comes to Android security.
There is and always will be CalyxOS or DivestOS for a wider range of devices (both are still much better than the likes of LineageOS and Pixelexperience)
It is in fact not a shitshow. Stop feeding fear. There are real potential concerns but Lineage OS does a great job of being a middle ground that allows for lots of tweaks and customization
Don’t reply to him. He’s just another marketing agent for google trying to paint other ROMs as inferior. All an elaborate marketing strategy for selling phones.
I literally mentioned Calyx and Divest OS as alternatives which support non-google devices
also how is buying a used Pixel and degoogling it to the max with GrapheneOS (with reasonable compromises like optional sandboxed GMS) helping Google?
Didn’t know that cutting their mal-/spyware out, and trying to avoid them and their services wherever possible actually helped them, silly me 🤷♀️
(I assume this to be the standard way for most ppl and plan on doing that as well once my current Huawei phone breaks)please learn to read before insulting other ppl with your less-than-a-day-old account lol
My man, Lineage OS isn’t google. All I’m saying is that Graphene isn’t the only option.
Clearly a woman. “My lady” would’ve been more appropriate. Please don’t be rude
It is completely subjective and depends on your threat model
