For those unfamiliar, GrapheneOS is a privacy and security enhanced custom ROM endorsed by Snowden. Despite these big names, plenty of people give it backlash
Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
One of the reasons is that GrapheneOS can only be installed on Google Pixels due to security compatibility, which makes complete sense considering Android should be most compatible with Google’s own devices. GrapheneOS even lists the exact reasons they chose Pixels, and encourage people to step up and manufacture a different supported device.
One year ago, Louis Rossmann posted this video outlining his reasons for deleting GrapheneOS. Mainly, he had multiple bad experiences with Daniel Micay (the founder and main developer of GrapheneOS) which put his distrust in the GrapheneOS project. Since then, he has stepped down and will no longer be actively contributing to the project.
So, I am here to learn why exactly people still do not like GrapheneOS.
GrapheneOS only works on Google hardware. Part of the advantage of Android is device variety, but GrapheneOS forces you down a narrow path. Want a rugged device, a headphone jack, microSD? Well Google doesn’t offer those so GrapheneOS can’t meet your device requirements.
GrapheneOS has defined a set of security standards for their operating system which have hardware requirements. These standards have been published and there have been efforts to engage with hardware manufacturers to adopt the required hardware. Blame the manufacturers for skimping on security, rather than Graphene being unwilling to compromising their values.
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On top of it, they have lied about testing. https://i.imgur.com/woNxPhx.jpg
Yeah, no. Pretty sure that’s just a rando with GrapheneOS logo as their avatar. The way they talk doesn’t sound like the dev to me, and I also don’t think the dev would ever misspell a word like “cellular” as “cullar”.
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“What is this level of grand security…” Enumerated here: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
Once manufacturers can implement those things, then you will have an alternative to Google hardware for running Graphene. I’m not telling people to trust anything, don’t put words in my mouth.
Who is PrivacyPhones and why should I believe they are in any way affiliated with Graphene?
It would be possible to ship generic system images with separate updates for the device support code. However, it would be drastically more complicated to maintain and support due to combinations of different versions and it would cause complications for the hardening done by GrapheneOS.
Sounds like they could, but have resource limitations to do it. It’s also a knock against Google whose hardware has gotten worse. Personally, IDGAF about these project-imposed requirements if I can’t have the standard headphone jack on portable device.
I think part of the reason is there’s a chip that limits brute force attacks and it’s not in other phones
I don’t feel comfortable using google devices no matter what reasons they state. As a free software project-and the biggest one in the custom ROM space-it should offer the freedom for users to choose their own devices. A lot of users are fine with losing these supposed “security” reasons for getting away from google, and they would like to repurpose existing devices instead of buying new pixels. It’s almost like it’s a blatant way for selling google pixels. Oh and don’t get me started with the binary blobs.
Ive never used it, but i like the idea. I light op en a wasp nest now, but what Alternatives do i have, ? Using Android phone, i still have a Windows phone in the shelf, van i flash it with a better alternative?
Easy: it only supports pixels. I don’t really care what excuses they have unless it’s “we don’t have enough people”. But that binary " google is most secure so nothing else matters" makes me distrust them.
They are pushing people to give google more money than google could make on their data. I find that highly questionable.
“Excuses” are all security related: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
The project’s Twitter account has already stated they want to use Samsung phones, but the hardware security isn’t accessible for custom ROMs.
We know Samsung suck, though (The Samsung Galaxy S22 was just hacked in 55 seconds — yikes. Maybe the hardware sucks too, not just the software, so who knows.
Let me write a list of requirements that only a specific phone can fulfill and call that “secure”.
GrapheneOS devs probably.
Like:
At least 5 years of updates from launch for phones (Pixels now have 7) and 7 years for tablets
Why? The image is based on AOSP. Are they going to reverse engineer the releases of other vendors and incorporate whatever fixes are in there?
Complete monthly Android Security Bulletin patches without any regular delays longer than a week
Same as above. It’s like like red hat releasing a security bulletin but a Debian based project has to be up to date with that bulletin. Makes no sense - unless you aim to build upon red hat enterprise Linux (which you won’t).
Inline disk encryption acceleration with wrapped key support
Optimisations are part of the requirement? Come on.
Support for A/B updates of both the firmware and OS images with automatic rollback if the initial boot fails one or more times
How is this not a nice to have?
Seriously, basically what they’re doing is grabbing the newest pixel and setting that as the baseline regardless of whether other phones do things better or worse.
[Anti Commercial-AI license](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/
TheAnonymouseJoker is a clown (imo, no harassment or anything)
Talked with them on the subject of privacy emails and they recommended services that store mail unencrypted and logs your ip address and stuff
Their sources are « activists » that they like, rather than facts. I suspect their don’t like bigger companies and famous things even if they’re better
I use grapheneos and it’s pretty good. Yes the main dev can be a bit of an asshole, but for what it claims to do, grapheneos is pretty good
Sadly anything with google services, even sandboxed, is going to track you, and I believe grapheneos is pretty good at what you can do without sacrificing too much
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I personally blocked him and it was one of the best decision of my digital life. He’s basically wasting his life spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS. He’s simply too much to handled for my mind. Without seeing him, i feel this place is much more relaxing and useful to see it.
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It’s likely because the developers are highly opinionated, and this is true even for topics they don’t know very much about. See the entire discussion about implementing battery charge limiting in GrapheneOS. This makes for a lot of friction for people who would like to see more focus on usability in GrapheneOS as opposed to it being purely focused on security.
I stopped reading threads on their forums because the developers are so abrasive even though I still use the rom, because I don’t mind the loss of usability compared to other roms. I can completely understand why there is a lot of negative sentiment around it though.
Wow, Graphene really doesn’t have charging limits?
I assume this is the discussion you referred to, and I think it broke my trust in the project.
I use Home Assistant for this BTW 😃
Interesting! I assume it involves a smart plug and an automation script that monitors battery level?
That’s it.
Oh, wow, that dude in the thread is proud in his ignorance.
It really does not. I use an external device connected via Bluetooth to achieve this on GrapheneOS, and others use home automation.
Edit: that thread isn’t what I’m referring to. There was a larger one, perhaps on their github, with a link to a blogpost about why charge limiting “isn’t necessary” being cited as the justification for why the rom doesn’t have the feature. Either way, it’s frustrating to read and best ignored.
What a weird situation. I suppose it’s nice those workarounds exist, even if they’re not ideal.
Honestly, I think you summed up the biggest issues. As much as I look forward to getting a Pixel for my next phone solely for GrapheneOS, it’s understandable for people looking to degoogle to not want to buy a Google phone. The developer I think is the bigger issue. Despite having since stepped down, his behavior went unchecked for long enough to make quite a bad reputation and leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths. While recovering from that will simply take time, I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels. Something like CarbonOS as secure as possible sans Google hardware. Could easily overtake Calyx/Lineage.
I recommend people look at DivestOS, and will probably go this myself in the near future
DivestOS is a security hardened version of Lineage and supports Bootloader relocking ans verified boot for at least several phones.
the develop is also a very cool guy, very intelligent and does not sperg out like an autist like Micay
The problematic dev never stepped down they still pull the same crazy shenanigans like banning anyone he disagrees with.
I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels
The issue I see is simply a lack of developers to do so. Trying to split the team between two mostly different projects would most likely cripple both.
I think the issue is Play Integrity/SafetyNet. If you can’t lock the bootloader, you can’t get it without using illegal hacks. GrapheneOS only passes Basic Integrity but that’s just details
@Charger8232 @DARbarian I don’t think that’s it, it’s more that they’re a project where you’re expected to buy a device for it, in this case a Pixel.
Pixels have amazing security features and they don’t want to lose that.
They tell you why right on their website. They dev for Pixels because it’s a stable platform with a predictable future.
If you’re not going to listen to the devs, I don’t know what to say.
It’s unfortunate the grapheneos community has a bad reputation, but I think the fact that Daniel stepped down and that the project is very committed and ticking all my personal boxes (and more) really keeps me devoted. I wish there were more options of phones, but I have no issue personally with it requiring google pixels as they have convinced me with what seems like rational and well supported arguments. I do wonder if as someone else mentioned, it may be interesting to have a GOS-light for other phones, just to give them a chance to get into GOS and try it out before getting a dedicated phone. It feels like a high barrier to entry, and a limited version may still be better than anything else available to those people? Just a thought.
Personally is due to the toxicity of their dev and socials team, basically if you ask something, you are wrong and they are right, if you recommend other options, you are wrong and they are right. They have been publicly raging war against cybersecurity content creators that dare question some decisions or do honest reviews (OS Is good but has it’s but scenarios) … Once they get better with their PR relationships most of the hate will go away.
Groups like this need to understand that their PR would do better if they said nothing at all rather than just being an asshole.
See also: CEO of Kagi search who thinks he can browbeat people into agreeing with him. It makes me never want to use Kagi.
Just shut up and let your fucking products speak for themselves. The more you rant about your philosophy to others, the less they actually want to use your products.
I’ve been using grapheneOS and never knew the toxicity. Crazy.
It was never so much about the hate for GOS as it was for Daniel. Daniel is a absolute genius but has some mental and paranoid issues. Which hurt GOS reputation in the proces, Dont get me wrong I do not hate the guy or GOS at all but I do agree Daniel has some serious issues.
@Charger8232 The main dev is definitely still there it seems, (and still making claims) more over the harassment comes from all the devs (and by consequence, users)
@Charger8232 It makes it worse because they keep trying to make points and compare with others, like, OK, WE GET IT. Go on, continue fueling hate and then claim to be the victim.
@Charger8232 I shouldn’t even say anything but it’s too much.
People have to learn to separate software from its developer.
For example, I don’t care about Hyprland dev being an asshole sometimes, if the WM he’s developing works good. I don’t care about Cider’s devs political positions if it doesn’t directly affect my experience with the software.And people also have to learn, that if someone uses any particular software, they aren’t necessarily using it the way developer pointed out they should.
I use GrapheneOS on my device, but that doesn’t mean that I completely follow devs philosophy. I don’t use Vanadium, 'cause I don’t wanna support Chromium monopoly. I use F-Droid to install my apps, even if developers think, that I should get my apps directly from its devs.Does GrapheneOS founder or developer philosophy that you don’t agree with makes Graphene a bad OS? Of course it doesn’t. GrapheneOS is still one of the best options on degoogling your device if not the best.
I know this is somewhat controversial but I agree with this when it comes to FOSS software. Proprietary is a different story. But for foss software, the developer literally gains nothing from you using their software. So if the software is good and works to your benefit, why not use it? Yea okay the developer is a POS but how does that affect the product? And you using GrapheneOS does not mean you are supporting the developer as again, this is a FOSS product, you are not paying them with money or data or code.
if the software is good and works to your benefit, why not use it?
sometimes people just don’t feel comfortable using work of someone who opposes their rights. even just using the product gives the creator more exposure, recognition, possible funding in the future if it gets big enough, and so on. so, if the creator is openly transphobic, for example, trans folks won’t want to use the product, and doubly so when the community around the product is toxic, too. they’re voting with their feet.
That is understandable, but no need to be going out and attacking people who recommend GrapheneOS like the mod did. It would be much better if he just points out the major flaws of the GrapheneOS community the same way that Techlore and Louis Rossmann did, rather than dogging on anyone and everyone who recommends an otherwise great operating system.
“grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.”
Is that really criticism of graphene os? or is it complaining about specific users who like graphene os?
It stems from a blind hatred for GrapheneOS and its users as a whole.
I think this is one of those situations where someone is downvoted and they can’t fathom why (because their opinion being unpopular is not possible) so it MUST be something they literally just manufactured in their head.
People like to ntpick and fight. GrapheneOS is one of the best options (realistically of just a few) out there, and it’s pretty damn good and simple to get into.
People like to take sides on the internet without doing proper research too, I think. I had this idea that Micay was toxic and kind of avoided the project for a long time. My conclusions after doing more research is that he is someone that lacks social skills and is indeed very opinionated. However, GrapheneOS isn’t made for privacy activists that can afford to use Mull instead of Vanadium, for example. GrapheneOS is made for people that cannot afford to have a phone that might leak information that could endanger their lives.
If Mikay was someone like Palmer Luckey which is a biggot that’s a whole different story. I am glad I gave GrapheneOS a try and I am very happy using it, even if it is kind of overkill for my privacy needs.
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