I am an Indian and I have noticed that Indians are way too proud of their country for some reason and at the same time lack any civic sense towards it, they are extremely loud and extremely proud. We feel like the world revolves around India and our culture is superior to that of others. Also, a considerable chunk of the population has been sold the “India is a world-leader” myth and they think India is somehow leading the world in innovation, science and technology, human development etc.,
Now, I know for a fact that this is not true, when I try to gauge the perception of Indians abroad on Twitter, I get pretty negative results, but Twitter has nothing good to say about any group of people, so… I kinda wanted to know what you people though of India, don’t base it upon the etnic Indians who might be your friends and are decent people, but base it upon the news you read, the stories you hear from those Indians, etc.
I visited India back in 2008 and I loved it! However, since then I have realized that I am transgender, so I probably won’t go back unless the culture shifts toward being more friendly to queer people. That sours my taste for the country, unfortunately. I also escape fundamentalist Christianity, so I am very suspicious of fundamental and conservative religion, which I perceive as having a strong presence in India.
I don’t see India leading in innovation or technology. I see China, Japan, South Korea and the US as being leaders that way. I do see India as up and coming due to its population spike, it definitely feels like development is happening fast!
I am myself Indian
I think most Indians don’t realise how large and diverse India is. Most Indians underestimate how foreign parts of thier own country are in terms of economy, culture, language, food etc.
From afar, I love the food. I’d love to visit and learn more about the country but as a woman I don’t feel safe going there.
I don’t see much about India in the news. I have a friend who worked in a small town for a month during medical school and talks about the poverty and the number of people she saw sleeping on every flat surface in the city.
I work in public education in the US. With Indian families I’ve seen two very different attitudes, which leads me to believe that culturally they either serve others or expect to be served. Most are kind, pleasant, and very appreciative of anything we do for their kids. Others expect us to bend every rule for them- start and end times, attendance, bus times/routes, etc. Our Indian families tend to carry and feed their kiddos longer than others and it seems like little kids (especially boys) ‘rule the roost’ as parents often say things like - he won’t go to bed, won’t stay at the table to eat, won’t get up in the morning, etc. You want to say, “He’s 5. You’re the mom. Set some rules.”
culturally they either serve others or expect to be served
As an Indian it’s amazing how you perfectly hit the nail on the head considering how limited your exposure has been. Most Indians themselves never realize this tendency of theirs throughout their lives.
culturally they either serve others or expect to be served
Ohh yes, that’s a nice observation. I have seen people who would just crumble when they encounter someone they perceive to be of a higher class (not caste), but I have also seen people who are “I own this place guys”
It probably talks a lot abt the socio-economic circumstances of their upbringing. Most including me belong to the people who become servile when they encounter authority/class, I am trying to change that tho.
I hate the servility I see around me, people think so less of themselves and way too highly of the corrupt bureaucrat, I have seen what kind of people this culture creates and it’s pretty gloomy!
India is one of the last places I’d like to visit. This is based on how India has been portrayed in various travel shows over the years (Amazing Race, Top Gear). It looks crowded, dirty, and the locals often aren’t very friendly, especially towards women.
One of your main exports to the west is scam calls. It’s a huge PR problem and your government refuses to address it. Your other main export right now is Russian oil.
Indians used to have a fairly large online presence in English-speaking spaces with mixed results. There were a lot of helpful tech bros on YouTube, but also a lot of horny dudes on Facebook. I don’t really see much of either of those anymore though.
My wife works in software testing and has regular interactions with Indians. Some are really nice, but others are really not. Misogyny is far too common and when Indians are rude they are boldly rude.
The two things that I think of when I think of India are that it’s way too overpopulated and also way too hot.
Aside from that, there are a lot of academics I’ve seen from India that are genuinely helpful on YouTube but also a lot of scams. Speaking English with an Indian accent almost instantly creates a sense of distrust in Americans simply with how many times we each personally have received scam calls or talked to someone in an Indian call center who swears their name is ‘Derek Johnston’ or other similarly fabricated name.
the “news” i “know” about india is little, some historical “facts” written mostly by uncivilized brutish invaders compacted to youtube videos by part or fulltime streamers. Some other “facts” which sound often bad i sometims mostly have from official media known to promote any “nice” propaganda - that is, depicting other countries worse than the own one so that people do not hunt their own gov with garden forks just to stop the crimes. Well i really “know” nothing about India.
But beeing proud of culture usually is a good thing, but that is only if it is culture and as such does not(!) base on abuse or similar.
Maybe what you experience could be a crowd effect that protects the people from seeing what they (group, society) do wrong while at the same time it protects the worst wrongdoers from punishment or at least from getting stopped. Such as it could be a self-sustaining downwards spiral taking more and more and everything down with it slowly increaaing pace. At least what you wrote sounded a slight bit chilling like that.
It could be hormones and how culture tells you to act or not act on them, or a lack of culture about such, maybe a combination of culture to “support your group” while that support does not always protect integrity of the overall concept of what that culture was meant for. A group of people cheering to each other how good they are might not want to stop cheering for “minor reasons” because it just feels good. While doing wrong things they could “help” each other (which is supposedly a good thing but can do lot of harm too) with arguments that this wrongdoing would be ok or even "good’ in this specific moment because of <insert_bullshit_here>. alltogether spiralling downwards doing so more often every day. So all of them can go on wrongdoing while feeling well supported or even falsely feel superior in general.
however a figure (real/not real?) well known in india once said something like “it is better to calm down and just do your thing than to overreact”. (this is the shortes version i’ve ever tried to compact it to but maybe you get the idea anyway).
I know for a fact that this is not true,
i don’t know the underlying things that make it a fact, plz share.
On India itself, its impressive that it’s the world’s largest democracy. Indians are well educated relative to similarly poor countries and have high English literacy, which is why many believe it could outpace China.
I admire their charitibility. My local area has a large Indian population as I live near a large hindu temples in the US. There is always cheap, high quality food for those in need (1$ for a large plate of food). The kitchen is operated by volunteers and rely on donations and food banks. I Believe this is also common practice in many temples within India proper.
There are plenty of unsavory things such as the caste system but overall harbor a lot of respect for the country and people.
The kitchen is operated by volunteers and rely on donations and food banks. I Believe this is also common practice in many temples within India proper.
Here’s a great little mini-documentary on that I saw on exactly that a few months back. Sikh temples seem amazing in terms of the sheer numbers of people they feed with no limiting criteria.
Extremely dirty. If everyone decided to spend a day cleaning the place up it would look decent. So why does nobody care to make it happen?
When I think of india, I think of scam centers disguised as tech support.
Talking of tech support, I must mention that your McAfee subscription has expired and at a low cost of $40 you can get lifetime access :)
India gets my respect for its very long history, and the fact it invented buddhism.
But Indian code is terrible. It degrades my respect for the country because it’s just consistently really bad.
A lot of Indian code seems like someone tried to fix a broken car window by caulking a fish tank into place. You confront them and they’re like “What? It’s glass isn’t it? It’s exactly the same”
Now I haven’t seen a lot of Indian code. I’ve seen the output of maybe ten different devs in India, and of that sample it’s all bad. Like really bad.
They work hard and get shit done, but it’s always some kind of hacky kluge made from copy-pasted code.
It’s unclean. It’s full of tech debt. It’s redundant. It’s often not even indented correctly.
and the fact it invented buddhism.
Siddhartha was born in what is now Nepal.
Western countries employing Indian coders are generally looking for the cheapest coders they can find who speak passable English. All of that sounds like you got what you paid for.
It’s probably true that the examples I’m thinking of were all from that general notion. The attitude of “We’re going to India to get this done cheap.”
Yep and when they pay for better they tend to ship the engineer to their base of operations. Huge brain drain.
I went back and forth thinking you meant code like Building Code, or Traffic Code. But you literally mean programming code.
They work hard and get shit done, but it’s always some kind of hacky kluge made from copy-pasted code.
Honestly, I agree.
I will argue that the only code I ever saw from India was from coding firms hired by American companies thinking they can save a few bucks. But then people like me are paid 10x more to fix it.
That code seems to lack any sort of creative thinking or big picture. It’s loops within loops. It’s using stuff like letters for variables, or abbreviations. It’s duplicating code in 3000 line files.
At first, I thought it was just laziness or trying to get it done asap. But then I felt sad when I gave them a lot of feedback, got the changes back, then the next set of code, saw the same issues over again. Like they really don’t see a problem with this.
Unfortunately this is my experience as well. It’s probably something in the way that it’s taught over there? I do love my Indian coworkers-- they’re nice and willing to help or collaborate, and are good people as far as I can tell-- but some of the architectural decisions are something that I can only describe as baffling.
Sadly, I have nothing good to say, other than the food is delicious.
Of Modi, who was chief minister of Gujarat in 2002 when more than 1,000 Muslims were slaughtered in an inter-communal riot, she observes: “The courts, the press, the parliament are not functioning as checks and balances. If they were, he would be in jail today.”
Generally, I think of India positively, but your march towards authoritarianism worries me. The last election lessened that worry a bit, but I still feel nervous about a regional nuclear war* between you and Pakistan or a land war with China, particularly as the region dries out.
As long as India strives to be a democracy and outlooks between you and Pakistan lighten, I feel pretty good about you guys.
*a regional nuclear war could cause seasonal disruptions to the entire planet, like some massive volcano eruptions that have dimmed the planet for a decade or more.
My background is US.
I still feel nervous about a regional nuclear war* between you and Pakistan or a land war with China, particularly as the region dries out.
Neither will happen. Both our politicians and Pakistani generals love sabre-rattling. Both also love their wealth and status too much to do anything stupid. And while China can really hurt us in a potential war, they can do at least as much damage by stopping exports to us.
My background is US.
Ah yes, self-titled world’s police.
your march towards authoritarianism worries me
Yeah, you may want to rethink that one given how the US acts.
Yeah, I poke fun at your comment, but I mostly want to push back on this idea of “authoritarianism.” So here comes a bit of a rant, but hopefully a compelling one. The problem with authority isn’t that it exists or that it is used, but who holds that authority, how it is used, and who benefits from how it is used.
Leadership stems from authority. Parenting stems from authority. Social contracts are upheld through their authority. Saying “no” is using a personal form of authority. The bartender cutting me off is an authoritarian act! You know what else is authoritarian? “Bringing democracy” to another country. (Seriously, how is that in any way democratic?)
Authority is just an active extension of power. Both authority and power are neutral. They aren’t inherently good or bad, but they can be used for either. Good and bad themselves are mostly a matter of perspective, who do they affect and how are what we care about. How are people affected by authority, how that power is used, and who are affected by it are a few of the aspects that help shape what we view as good or bad use of authority.
So if whether authority and power are good or bad is dependent on how they are used, then it matters a whole lot who has that power and what their interests are. Do they share their interests with you? Do they share them with most people? Are they using that power to mainly benefit themselves or to benefit others?
I would say that it doesn’t matter that power and authority exist and are used, they are a part of existence. Who has that power and their interests are what actually matter. Authoritarianism is an empty concept, lacking any real substance. Every decision you make is authoritarian. Upholding social contracts is authoritarian. Staging revolutions and quashing them are both authoritarian. ALL governments are authoritarian otherwise we could do whatever we wanted!
You live in the US, can you walk into a grocery store and a small amount of food because you need it? No, because it against the law. You must use US dollars. Can you go pay in a foreign currency or trade in other goods? No, unless the owners of the store forbid it. Can you diddle or traffick kids for other people to abuse? No, US laws forbids it (but they’ll excuse it if you’re rich enough, because money grants power). Can you walk into Congress or any business and use your authority to make them operate exactly as you want? No, you don’t have that power.
Instead of focusing on the empty word, authoritarian, a word that is essentially, and often baselessly, used to mean “evil thing we don’t agree with,” we should instead be looking at who holds the power that lends that authority, what are the interests of those with power and whether those interests align with ours.
You don’t like a government because it leans too far from your interests? That’s a good reason not to like them. That’s a good reason to go authoritarian on their asses. You don’t like a government just because they use their authority? That’s hypocritical. You use your authority all the time and may even do so to overthrow them…if you had the power.
I’ve no significant opinion of India beyond anti-Modi, and that’s a product of John Oliver. Most of my engineering team are Indian and some I like, some I tolerate. And a fear of Indian traffic by reputation alone.
But you could swap “American” with “Indian” in that first paragraph, change nothing else, and it be largely (if not entirely) accurate.
a product of John Oliver.
that guy is almost always biased as hell and lies to make people he disagrees with seem bad, but damn, he went wayyy to easy on modi even though he dislikes Modi! Idk why!?. He attributed things to modi which weren’t his own (like rations and the economic progress) and generally was misinformed. Terrible research team! I could have given him better points! and his delivery was subpar! The last Modi episode was better, maybe he was trying to gain a wider audience in India as otherwise we would have banned the show (We love Free speech here in India)
