For real, dead animals taste amazing when you grill them
You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they’re in stock.
Elwood dog farm
Ok now I’m angry it was a joke. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find organic free range husky?!
For a split second that website looked convincing 🙂
Would try if it was real.You can try some in Switzerland. While you can’t sell the meat, slaughtering and eating it is legal. There is farms where you can “make a donation” and they’ll invite you to dinner.
I agree! There’s actually a few human races I consider acceptable to eat, what a breath of fresh air to find someone like minded!
a few races of human
Ew, are you like a racist or something ?
I suppose when you presuppose superiority over sentient life for no other reason than your own pleasure, it’s quite easy to become racist.
You’re dawn right “ew”!
That does sound intriguing. How does it taste?
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they’ve lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn’t die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
Try Harder.
What? Try harder to what? Don’t defend yourself in court hahahaha. “Does the defense have any closing statements?” “Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder”
I’m fine with gamey meat, lots of hunters in the family. Sounds interesting, I might try it sometime.
i know u are saying that because u think that would be bad but there is literally nothing wrong with eating dogs, also cats are good too.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
there are genuine health issues with cannibalism unlike dogs and cats, bet we taste good too given the right seasonings tho
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria. Given that you’re okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what’s to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they’re mentally superior to their food, what’s off the table for you?
I’m sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you’re on to something. We’d be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn’t exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn’t take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don’t care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he’d never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There’s a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called “This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You”. I’ve had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It’s straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
No, humans taste nasty all joking aside. Also prions. Don’t eat your own kind, there are reasons for this.
That’s why I said “avoiding the brain and spine, to avoid prion diseases”. You might have misread my comment.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Thats a fine slippery slope argument u got there and like always its complete shit, people are people and animals are animals.
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
The fact that you are eating your own species, which is cannibalism.
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn’t a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
I will eat your babies!
then u will starve
TBH, I’d expect them to be a bit gamey, especially cats.
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don’t even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn’t mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others. Most people don’t like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go “Oh ho i’d eat dog!”, but they mean they’d try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they’d be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there’s no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they’ve been culled. It’s objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
How do you measure how much misery a cod feels?
Edit: sorry that was a bit snarky. I don’t think you’re completely off the mark but I would think an animal needs at least a nervous system to experience pain, so there are categories to consider and it may be morally virtuous to abstain from eating some animals but not necessarily immoral, and we should be careful to anthropomorphize other animal emotional states.
So fish have nociceptors, and a brain that connects to them, and they avoid painful stimuli. They have analgesic response systems in their brain to dull painful stimuli. Even the most cautious interpetation of misery would include pain, so I would not kill and eat it. Fish display sentience, therefore it is immoral to kill them for pleasure.
Plants process pain and can communicate with other plants.
By your logic it is immoral to mow your grass.
No serious study suggests plants feel pain. They do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
Many more plants “die” for animal feeding than with a vegan diet.
If you’re worried about grass pain, you should focus more on the animals that DO have nociceptors, central nervous systems and brains, and the ability to feel fear that you subject them too, purely for taste preference.
Horse meat does taste pretty good
If prepped properly, still needs a milk soak.
Knock it off with the trolling nonsense
It’s pretty obvious you’re a troll
We are well aware of the dog meat troll tactic from vеgаns
Listen brother, I eat meat but if you go into a vegan post and get into an argument about veganism, you’re not being trolled, you’re the troll.
It doesn’t help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It’s insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that’s political suicide, so it’ll never happen. It’d be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it’d be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it’s culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s right.
I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference.
Not eating meat won’t change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it’s a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
Not eating meat won’t change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry.
more animals are breed and slaughtered every year than the year before. being vegan has never reduced that
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn’t mean vegans haven’t reduced the consumption of meat?
I don’t even think you know what you’re saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there’d be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
“Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!”
“Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!”
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
Yeah no shit, but the number would be even higher if fewer people were vegan.
Hypothetical moral questions posed genuinely is not trolling. If you’re okay with eating cows and pigs, why is eating dogs considered trolling?
it’s bad faith
I have no intent to deceive. There’s a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why? “Oh, because we like dogs” Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike? “Well, no, dogs are intelligent!” Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it’s yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That’s crazy.
it’s clearly a gotcha. that’s bad faith.
No it’s not. It being a “gotcha” does not mean it’s wrong. In fact, it is still right, you’re just wrong and think the person you reply to is wrong because they disagree with you.
there is no logical argument for a lot of things, its just culture. and it is tasty and thats all that need be said.
There’s a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is “ah well”.
That’s not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can’t seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there’d be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I’ve been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He’d make good compost, that’s for true.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely of blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They’re inexpensive as they’re byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it. I guess vegans can’t control that so maybe it’s a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?If you’ve got the luxury, you can also let fields go fallow and rotate crops to avoid fertilizer. That obviously requires more land though
This thread is weird. It seems like you all never heard of compost.
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
Upvoting, because while I don’t eat meat myself, I like people who are consistent.
If you’re okay with eating a pig, don’t judge those you eat a dog.
Real
Agreed
Same for dead plants and mushrooms tho.
porque no los dos
?
99% of humans have the complete opposite reaction when the animal in question is a mosquito.
mmmm animal flesh inbetween my teeth. Fking amazing.
But not swine. Fk swine.
want to see a westerner have a full on tantrum? Suggest to them that their actions are not always morally neutral
Pork has no fucking business being that damn tasty.
Its like its begging to be cooked.
PETA be like:
❎All those listed
✅Killing animals taken to your shelter
✅Having sex with the animal (claiming animals can’t consent is speciesist)
Hey all you modern-day meat eaters out there, raise your hand if you’ve ever actually killed an animal.
No one?
That’s what I thought.
Do you use a phone? Well, you cant use one unless you build it yourself…
The replies to this are chefs kiss
Everyone talks about the annoying vegan, but look at all of the rage-induced replies from the meat eaters.
I counted maybe a dozen strawmen? People really are resistant to any kind of change, even the thought of it.
I mean homesteading is pretty popular
🙋♂️ Am I still allowed to eat it?
I’ve killed deer, chickens, chipmunks, squirrel, and some other small pests. Yes, I did gut and clean the deer and chickens myself. And yes, I did eat their tasty fleshy meat.
Lol, are you trying to say something?
I went hunting but I got bored.
Thrill of the hunt, my ass! I fell asleep on a log.
No one has every hunted. I mean, I have, but no, no one.
How many beans have you harvested? How many bushels of wheat have you grown? None, damn I guess that means we all have to starve to death.
Took a chance on the lemmy demographic and lost. There’s actually a pretty diverse group here I’m finding.
I have butchered squirrels, deer, turkey, snakes, catfish, goats, pigs, and rabbits. Went vegetarian two years ago for ethical reasons though, so I guess I don’t get to raise my hand lol
🙋
I went crabbing and the resources I found said that killing them before cooking them was likely more humane than boiling them alive, so that’s what I did.
My old neighbor’s cat once left a paralyzed/twitching rat outside my door, which I found in the morning. I quickly realized that the rat was not going to recover (it had already been there for hours), so I had to figure out a way to quickly end its suffering. I did not eat the rat though.
It’s an interesting choice to accuse people in general of never having gone fishing before.
If you thought they were saying noone has ever killed their own meat, you are missing the point.
They should formulate their point better so you don’t look silly when you leap to their defense.
If you think I look silly, sure. All I’m saying is all of the meat advocates that jumped to attack the OP are missing the point.
Now, why would you all misconstrue what they said so bad? Are you all seriously arguing that even close to a substantial percent of people hunt for their own food?
Maybe, just MAYBE, they weren’t talking about all of you who actually have, and instead were making a point about how the vast majority of people in at least the US have not and will not hunt their own food in their lifetime. The number drops if we only consider those who actually provide for themselves with hunting rather than treat it as a sport with meat as a bonus.
No you are right, they must have literally meant that noone has ever hunted ever. That makes much more sense. Definitely doesnt say anything about your reading comprehension.
I get it, they are coming for your meat, probably your guns too. Life’s rough. Keep up the good fight.
🙋♂️
Parents owned a hog and chicken farm. Pro tip: never eat a rooster. Awful meat.
I have eaten rooster before, its more a gamey like taste or more intense compared to chicken
Maybe the one I had was just bad or something. I didn’t enjoy it.
🙋
Duck, rabbit, fish. It’s not uncommon for people to hunt and fish.
🙋♂️
Down here it’s a pretty common hobby. I just got a new .308 last year for this explicit purpose.
Just here to remember everyone that insects are indeed part of the animal Kingdom.
I have been fishing before with friends and watched a meat animal get decapitated on a relatives farm out of curiosity
Also watched a mongoose get drowned as part of pest control on the same relatives farm because they eat chickens
Never felt bad about it and enjoyed learning about It
Oh and I’ve massacred countless amounts of mosquitos but I don’t eat them
Fuck yeah brother, every invasive carp I can remove from my local river and stream ecosystem is a big WIN for everybody around me.
I cut their throats and leave them in the reeds for scavengers to feed on.
I do this with a big fuckin’ smile too, knowing my local DNR fines ignorant folks who release invasive species into my waterways.
Edit: am strictly catch-and-release when not reeling in invasive cunts. I don’t even used barbed hooks because I’m not a dick bag.
Such a strange combination of sport and killing. Which part do you like best?
Even if you added “for it’s meat” at the end there, I have killed and eaten fish.
But the way you said it, who hasn’t swatted a fly or mosquito? Not to mention the skin mites and fruit flies you consume daily.
🙋 I’ve hunted deer, gutted and skinned them myself too. The tenderloins are great sauteed, and the rest of the meat is good ground (just don’t cook it as long as hamburger, it’s more lean).
If you haven’t realized yet, vegans dont care about hunters.
Factory farms are hard to make an argument for though.
I’ll give it a shot anyways, to play devil’s advocate.
I only buy a vanishingly small percentage of the amount of meat produced by factory farms every year. So I feel the same percentage responsible for perpetuating that system, which isn’t nearly enough to keep me up at night.
There sure is a lot of vegan propaganda on Lemmy. It’s very annoying and not particularly memey.
I actually respect vegans that are vegan to prevent the suffering of animals.
I get it. Grew up farming. Chicken houses are an industrial horror machine.
We’ve recently bought a play farm and hope to raise or hunt all our meat. Only the slaughter and butchering of steers will be outsourced. Takes some serious equipment to handle an animal that large.
I’m an omnivore by evolution and enjoy meat and hunting. I’m always a little sad when I kill something, however. I figure that sadness means I’m human and is a good thing. When I eat meat from something I killed, it means more. There is a lot of respect involved in it as well something like religion.
If more people had to kill their meat, we would probably live in a very different world and there would be a lot more vegans.
Really, all you need is a small tractor to lift the steer after you’ve skinned it and to drop the gut. Skin the animal on the ground and roll it from side to side to get it all off, split the chest and cut out the anus, start lifting at the rear legs with chains through the achilles tendon, and pull the anus through, then as you lift more you can free the gut from the backbone and gravity will pull the gut down as you get higher.
Let it all fall on the skin, pull out the bits of organs you want or can feed the dog, and you have the carcass hanging now. Split with a sawsall and a long demolition blade. Make yourself a handhold between the fifth and sixth rib, then cut through the spine and breastbone above the 6th rib.
Leave as much fat on the inside of the cavity as possible so the tenderloin and brisket don’t dry out when hanging. Try to hang it at 2-4C for a couple weeks.
This sounds like excellent advice. I don’t even have a small tractor yet. Before steers, I’m going to have to string new fence. Next spring, if I’m lucky and have worked real hard, I’ll be getting a bottle calve or two.
Did find a cinder block shed with a good roof that wasn’t even listed. Has a loading ramp for a pickup. I’m real tempted to just outsource it.
Have a hernia and don’t know if I can do it.
Do have a root cellar that will be perfect for hanging.
It’s not a bad job, but with a hernia you might find it distinctly unenjoyable. There’s quite a bit of bending and kneeling as you skin, obviously.
No, you don’t get it. Or you would stop raping, enslaving, torturing and murdering animals.
The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children and are owed the exact same unconditional love and protection.
no one is raping, enslaving, or torturing animals
The rape part they are referring to is forced insemination.
that’s not rape
according to PETA it is
they’re wrong
Except for Dave. Someone should say something to him.
The entire dairy and meat industry is based on the rape and slaughter of animals. Mistreament of animals within the industry is arguably tantamount to torture and would be considered as such where it applied to humans.
The entire dairy and meat industry is based on the rape and slaughter of animals.
no one is raping animals and slaughter isn’t enslavement nor is it torture
how do you think dairy cows are always pregnant if they’re not being forcibly impregnated 🤔🤔
artificial insemination is a veterinary procedure. it’s not rape
and getting a giant steel horn implanted in your forehead would be a cosmetic procedure, but i guess you’d be pretty upset if someone did it to you without asking?
artificial insemination would fit the legal definition of rape in several jurisdictions in the world if you did it to a human.
Lmao when you get roaches.
???
Getting roaches, which invade your space, don’t contribute positively to it and, in fact, can cause disease is quite different from voluntarily raising chickens for slaughter.
I can confidently say that I have never raped an animal.
My housecat engages in a lot of torture, but she’s a damned good mouser. I put a stop to the torture when I catch it. I don’t allow my cats outside because they’re so bad on native wildlife, especially ground nesting birds. Cats are obligate predators. I kill cats if I find them in the woods as they are now varmints.
I’m an omnivore, and am at peace with that. I strive to kill in a manner that I find ethical. I kill critters to eat them, varmints to restore balance. I’ll eat the varmints if I can.
I live in the real world.
if you eat or drink any dairy products then you have almost certainly paid a company to rape some animals for you.
no one is raping animals
Other humans aren’t morally equivalent to my own children. Where the hell do you get off?
You should love Trump like you love your own child!!! 😂
I heartily agree. I’m also an omnivore, raised on a farm. The best meat is the meat you raised or hunted yourself, both ethically and taste wise.
The respect I have for the animal I personally kill for sustenance is the closest an atheist like myself will ever get to religion. I respect the lives of animals to sustain mine as a human, and I know if I raised it or hunted it, it had a much better life and will taste better than any meat you’ll see at a Wallmart.
Damn skippy. I’ve learned I’m an atheist with a pagan heart.
I’ve found that I must be hunting something when I go in the woods or on the water. Animal, vegetable, or something else. Don’t care if I actually kill, catch, or find; there just has to be a goal. I love taking other people and helping them get in tune with the world.
This makes me angry. You murder a creature for your pleasure. You do it against her will. If she could talk she’d beg you for her life, if she could fight back she would. Talking about respect in this violent relationship is self-righteous, cynical and speciesist bullshit. Like talking about respect after raping a child. The best pussy is the one you hunted yourself, right?
For hunting, would you prefer the animal overpopulation starve, get torn apart over hours by predators, or get hit by a car, killing people? A hunters bullet is one of the fastest deaths a wild animal will get.
If plants you kill to eat, the trees that became your furniture and home could talk, they’d beg too. So would the termites, bedbugs and lice, viruses and flesh eating bacteria.
Lastly are you nuts?? Eating a steak isn’t child rape, that’s insanity lmfao
Yeah it’s not as insane as you think, as I commented here. Plus you’re ticking some serious Bullshit Bingo. Check #15, #22, #37, and #51.
Since eating is just like fucking, do you fuck the pumpkin pie at family dinner?
Also, nice job addressing 0 of the things I said. Keep that vegan rep strong!
Haha, no, I don’t fuck pumpkin, do you even get what I’m trying to say?
Did you look at the Bullshit Bingo? It addresses everything you said, because you’re not the first one to say it. It’s a collection of a hand full of replies I hear all the time. I answer them all the time. I even looked up the # so you don’t have to go through the rest of the bullshit.
Wow, like you’re pretty warped. Here we are with the rape stuff again. Raping children, no less.
You need to do some thinking. That line of argument isn’t effective.
You’re claiming this crazy shit and the above person and myself are actively working minimize the suffering of animals.
Go touch grass and pet a dog.
Why crazy? It is a very accurate comparison:
Having sex and eating food is a core pleasure baked deep into our brains. We can decide what to eat and who to have sex with and we can use force to get what we want. It’s a taboo to rape and a taboo to kill. Animals can’t fight back like adult humans because they are innocent and often don’t understand the situation they are in, just like children.
Not seeing the similarities is because specisism and carnism are normalised to us in every aspect of our lifes since we’re born. Watch the videos, I’m not fighting you. If you want to minimize the suffering of animals, leave them alone! It took me a long time to figure this out as well.I’m currently working outside my old home, preparing it for sell. Taking a break right now.
A little old lady just stopped to grab things I’m sitting by the road for picking. She has a daughter and grandkids that are running from abuse. They’ll be getting a bunk bed and dressers from us. She likes pigs, we have pet pigs. I’m sitting aside some pig figurines that my girl left behind. One is a birdhouse that is full of piss ants, an invasive species. I poisned the fuck out them because they need to die. They’re varmints.
I have a rat problem I’m dealing with due to the cat moving and a bag of feed being left behind. I’m using poison, traps, and a gun to kill the varmints.
I’m not going to take the time to watch whatever videos you’re suggesting. Eating meat isn’t rape. That is a stupid argument you shouldn’t use. It is killing. I’m comfortable with killing.
I’m likely way more in tune with nature, animals, and trying to minimize my impact on the earth than you ever will be. Some of your ideology is poisonous and you are sick from it.
Humans have canines and binocular vision because we are omnivores. Meat and killing can be ethical, it’s just difficult.
The woman in that picture has some very minor canines.
The cat has some big ones.
Walking out of a unsuccessful deer hunt, I had an encounter with a mountain lion. Hissed and growled it away. Like totally a peak life experience. It was thinking about eating me and I convinced it otherwise. Did pull my pocket gun in fear.
If more people had to kill their meat, we would probably live in a very different world and there would be a lot more vegans.
I agree with your overall post, but you have the conclusion backwards.
The closer you are to hunting or slaughtering the more it’s just a normal part of life. I’ve never met a vegan when I grew up in a rural area around farms, only after I moved to the city and it’s almost exclusivly people that grew up in the city.
You might be right. When I was young; didn’t meet vegans until I experienced big cities.
vegan here who grew up on farms. Just because you don’t know them doesn’t mean they aren’t common.
Oh you’re vegan, too? Because I’m vegan!!
Well, I wouldn’t say vegans are common anywhere (where I’ve lived). It’s like 1-2% of the population.
And while my point indeed was totally anecdotal, it goes beyond just knowing people. There are other hints. I still often visit family in my childhood home area and even today you can notice a different in marketing. Restaurants there often don’t even mark meals as vegan on the menu, while restaurants in big cities often have an entire section for vegan meals.
Also supermarkets specialising on bio food and such (our equivilant of like wholefoods) aren’t present at all. You’d have to drive like 30km to get to one. Also in regular supermarkets meat replacement options are either not availible or poorly stocked.
So I’m not sure if it’s a result or a cause, but I’d say it’s much harder to be vegan in a rural area, just from a logistical standpoint. And you get a lot more local farmers markets, so you also have access to fresh and relativly cheap meat.
I’ve tried to search for some statistics about the distribution of vegans in urban and rural areas, but didn’t find anything useful. I did find some quora and reddit threads with quite a few replies of people that have similar expirences to mine.
If you have any, please share.
Yeah, you’re right it’s a different thing to doing it in cities, cooking is important. In my experience, I have lots of vegan rural friends however that’s due to my social circle and isn’t representive. In the uk apparently we are on 4.7% vegan now (1567% increase in 10 years) its become noticeably more over the last few years but probably not to the same level as cities.
Is that from people converting or because of immigration from places like India?
To be honest I’m not sure. The increase I have seen has been across all ethnicitys, mostly younger people though.
If people had to kill their own meat, not only would there be more vegans, but people who did eat meat would probably eat a lot less on average than the average person today does. It would probably make a lot of people healthier too.
people would probably eat less meat sure just because of the logistics of it, but did u forget that history is a thing? 150 odd years ago most people regularly slaughtered their own animals a few hundred years further back and basically everyone did, and at the same time almost everyone with very very few exceptions ate meat.
Of course they did, they also had drastically less options than they do today. It’s no coincidence that veganism is a fairly new concept, it’s only fairly recently that it’s become feasible.
My point is that slaughtering ur own animals is in no way a deterrent for eating meat at least no more that any other prep for any food is. Also Pescetarianism was available as a life style and very few people chose it despite not having to slaughter anything smart, and despite fish being very easy to kill and butcher from a literal and moral perspective.
Well I agree with you that I don’t think it was much of a deterrent, because that was the reality of how people were raised. But I think these days many people have never killed the animals they eat, and they were also not raised in the same conditions, so I suspect that forcing people to kill their own animals today would indeed be somewhat of a deterrent, at least to certain groups of people. But this is of course all just my opinion and speculation.
It would eliminate fast food that’s for sure.
Healthier is debatable. Meat is, relatively speaking, pretty good from a health perspective.
Most of what we eat that’s “bad for us” is refined carbohydrates. Sugar, fried starches, breads, that kinda shit. The burger patty is far from the worst offender on the plate.
If suddenly everyone is slaughtering their own animals, the foods they turn to to replace this calories aren’t going to be leafy greens, they’re going to be shitty carbs. Shitty carbs are already most of people’s diets.
That’s a fair point, I was mostly thinking that many people consume far too much meat, and that reducing it would be healthy, but if it’s only being replaced with trash then it wouldn’t be any better
If we’re talking about processed meat, that’s probably true. Even a small amount is probably too much.* If we’re talking about like, grilled whole cuts? Which admittedly probably isn’t typical in most diets, hard to get too much of that. And would be much more common if we were butchering our own meat. But so too would probably be sausage and cured meat so, now I’m not so sure things would change that much.
*Guilty as charged.
we used to live in a world were almost every slaughtered their own animals to eat and withing a rounding error everyone ate meat. its only icky to us today BECAUSE we dont interact with it.
I’m vegan btw
😛
The whole taste argument completely ignores nutrition.
Why don’t you only eat potatoes? Do you derive taste pleasure from B12 supplements?
Attaching a system of morality to a diet is just religion.
I maintain that veganism is just halal/kosher for atheists/agnostics.
Do you derive taste pleasure from B12 supplements?
The store stocks them with raspberry and mango taste, so yes? I have no idea what your point is, though.
The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Your moral perspective demands that you deny or ignore these facts. If you can deny that an animal’s experience has any value, you can do the same to a human.
So you’ve never killed a mosquito, right? Or a spider? Ants, perhaps?
This is a bad faith argument, similar to saying “so you’ve never left a light on all day?” To someone protesting climate change.
The point of veganism (besides the environmental side) is that there is far too much unnecessary suffering caused to animals; complex and intelligent animals, because of the meat industry. Of course humans will probably always cause death and suffering to animals and even other humans, but accepting this and taking it as a reason for “why should I care at all then” is ridiculous.
I don’t think we are at the point where all of humanity can refrain from meat. Maybe most Americans but we should maybe collectively decide this is the goal before pursuing it.
Being incendiary is a strategy that only had small short term gains. Looking at th big picture more people need to understand the argument and it can’t be, “you should feel bad.” At least not until you’ve established the expectations and clear reasons why they exist outside of one’s own personal judgement.
Why can’t we?? Meat is a luxury product!! The only reason you can afford it at all is because I subsidize it so heavily with my taxes. It is made by refining cheap, safe, plentiful plant food using the bodies of animals to create a toxic, addictive, scarce luxury good. In that process, MOST OF THE NUTRIENTS ARE LOST. If we all stopped eating meat, we would have such an overabundance of food, we would have to stop farming more than half the land we are currently farming for plants.
Now tell me why YOU can’t stop being cruel and violent against the kindest, gentlest creatures on the planet? Because even if you can come up with a tortured hypothetical reason some unlikely hypothetical person can’t, if you can, then what you are doing is atrocity.
Not that I was going to listen to you anyway, but the entire way you’re going about this just makes you look like a dick.
Also, accusing me of being cruel and violent for buying a slab of meat off the shelf is laughably stupid.
I agree not everyone can refrain from eating meat, but waiting until everyone is doing it before one stops eating meat is a good way to ensure it never happens. Veganism has grown to where it is now from people deciding to adopt it for themselves, regardless of other people are doing it.
But yes you are right, the argument shouldn’t be “you should feel bad”. I think educating about the problems of the meat industry, and also making veganism ever more accessible and normalised are the ways forward. But it will spread person by person, not as large communal decisions. At least not yet.
I could deny that a human’s experience has any value, true. But I generally don’t.
I can deny the importance of human experience (the heat death of the universe will erase all traces of our existence and impact) without wanting to kill humans right now.
How did you conclude the experiences of animals matter?
How do you know animals are having experiences?
How do you know human experiences matter?
I don’t claim to have any answers to the above but I’ve never heard a satisfactory answer to these questions other than ‘I just believe it is so’ and if it boils down to my belief versus your belief I have to conclude that neither one of us actually has any idea.
I dont know why you call it your moral system, when your system apparently is that the earth is supreme, humans dont matter, therefore anything that happens is okay. Morals are a societal thing, if you dont care about society then what’s the point?
How do you apply this system to your own actions? Just anything goes cause it doesnt matter?
They don’t. It’s a facile philosophy invented on the spot to avoid thinking rationally about ideas and feelings that they are not prepared to process. It’s disingenuous bullshit that we aren’t really supposed to engage with, it’s just suppose to distract and derail their own thought process. It’s fucking pathetic, practically solipsism.
I agree, morals are a societal thing and right now it’s perfectly socially acceptable to eat meat.
How I apply this to my own actions is by conforming to the made up rules of society because that seems to keep me alive.
If I lived in a vegan society and it was not socially acceptable to eat meat I likely wouldn’t.
You should be just as confident that animals are having experiences as you are that your fellow human beings are. They TELL you that they are having experiences. Have you never known an non-human mammal in your life?
If you were emotionally motivated to think of Irish people as not having the same full experience of life and suffering that you do (perhaps they taste good, or perhaps you have a coal mine their children labour in) you will find that you can convince yourself that they don’t. You are engaging in a set of obvious psychological defense mechanisms to protect your worldview that lacks any coherent ethical structure against ideas that are ethically consistent.
So, do you only eat like shadows and stuff?
If you can deny that an animal’s experience has any value, you can do the same to a human.
values are subjective
And yours are inconsistent. Is there a problem with people pointing that out?
no one can value everything the same… of course they are inconsistent
I didn’t say they had the same value. I said they had value. Consuming them for hedonistic pleasure is only ethically consistent with the view that animals have effectively zero or even negative intrinsic value.
nothing has intrinsic value
All of your efforts at self-preservation seem to disagree.
Okay? So?
Being cruel and violent to innocent creatures requires that you learn to suspend your empathy. Being cruel and violent to innocent creatures EVERY SINGLE DAY requires that you main your empathy, to actually injure yourself and impair your ability to be empathetic AT ALL.
To respond to your apparent non sequitur, I value compassion and empathy. Don’t you?
I value compassion and empathy
everyone does…not everyone has a problem with eating animals.
Attaching a system of mortality to a diet is just religion
… what? I’m sorry, but this simply doesn’t make sense at all. By this logic what is wrong with cannibalism? Attaching a system of morality to that diet would just be a religion right? And I’m sure eating human meat has all kinds of nutrients.
Nothing is inherently wrong with cannibalism.
I’m not a moral realist. So I don’t believe in moral facts I.e. that murder is ‘wrong’ or being charitable is ‘right’
It’s kid stuff (IMO) to believe in mystical rights and wrongs of the universe. The universe does not care one iota that you cease to exist tomorrow or if all humans were to become extinct (IMO).
If you disagree please point me to the source of your morals, how do you know what’s right and what’s wrong?
Veganism is not a moral system, it is an ethical system. Before we continue, do you understand the difference?
Who here is claiming that there are moral facts? Of course morals are constructs of human culture, but that doesn’t make them less important. Morals are essentially what we have learned to be important rules for good, healthy societies. Humans who abide by the idea that it is “wrong” to kill another human are far more compatible in a community than ones who do not. These concepts have developed over a very long time, which is why we tend to “know” when things are wrong (eg feel bad, guilty conscious, etc). One of these “rules” is that needlessly inflicting pain on intelligent animals is wrong. Similarly, causing unnecessary damage to the environment is wrong. The context of climate change is quite new, but the principle is the same.
Vegans. Vegans are claiming there are moral facts when they say that I am wrong for consuming animal products.
Although I’ve had discussions with vegans who claim they aren’t moral realists, I can’t recall a satisfactory argument for a moral anti-realist vegan position.
If you’d like to offer one, please do.
I believe I just did? My argument is that despite morals not coming from some magical entity, they have an origin in humanities success in society, and are therefore still important. For something to be immoral doesn’t merely mean an entity says it is bad, it means that thing goes against principles which benefit our societies. Murder is immoral, not because an entity decided that, but rather because societies which accepted murder were far less successful than societies which did not.
For veganism, the environmental mortality is clear. Besides that I suspect the reason we tend to see unnecessary animal abuse as immortal is because kinder humans tend to be better for society, and kinder humans also tend to be kinder to animals, not just humans.
Yeah what you’re describing is basically humans make morals.
The problem you should have with this is that currently society is fine with eating animal products.
Many societies were successful because they ate meat.
How do you reconcile a situation where you believe humans are the source of morals but you disagree with a particular moral created by humans I.e. that it’s ok to eat meat?
Well first, I don’t think that “is ok to eat meat” is a moral. But it’s true that humans haven’t tended to find it immoral (though there are exceptions to this in certain cultures, regarding certain meats).
But you make a good point, and I think the answer is that since humans make morals based on their circumstances, and the circumstances of society can and does change, then certain morals become less relevant compared to others. Murder is a fairly constant moral, because regardless of how a society changes, a murderous individual is gonna be bad for it. But on the other hand, there used to be pretty strong morals regarding how dead bodies were treated; you leave them alone. And this used to make sense, since people who messed with dead bodies were likely to get diseases and spread them. But as medicine and science and hygiene improved, this became less relevant as compared to the need to investigate dead bodies to improve understanding of disease and human biology. So our common morals regarding respect for the dead changed.
For veganism, it used to be for most societies that they couldn’t afford to simply not eat things, unless they were poisonous. So this need overwhelmed morals of kindness to nature and animals, even though this moral of kindness was still there (respecting nature is a moral found in very many cultures). But in modern day when we now have an abundance of food to the point of large waste, the need to eat whatever you can is no longer as important, and the moral of kindness to animals (and the environment) can be expressed more freely.
And indeed, I think the vast majority of vegans would agree that eating meat is not inherently immoral if there is no other choice, it’s only when meat is chosen over other alternatives that it becomes immoral, because it is unnecessary.
Sorry for the wall of text
One of these “rules” is that needlessly inflicting pain on intelligent animals is wrong.
that is not universal
who gets to define need
Obviously the observer decides for themselves what they think is needed. I didn’t think it would be controversial to observe that people tend to dislike/have an aversion to hurting intelligent animals for no reason.
Not everyone necessarily feels this, but many people do. Enough for us as a society to largely ban/shun things like dog fights, bull fights, circus animals, animal torture videos, etc
What you’re referring to as taste is in fact taste + nutrition
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Taste, is in fact, Nutrition/Taste, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Nutrition plus Taste. Taste is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Nutrition system.
The more animal flesh you consume, the younger you die and the more major diseases you suffer. Google: “all cause mortality meat”.
I eat so much meat that my life expectancy went negative and rolled over to the maximum allowed value of 2,147,483,647 years.
The more animal flesh you consume, the younger you die and the more major diseases you suffer
you have no idea what their nutritional needs or risk factors are
Well now, that’s not entirely true. If you will grant me, at least for the sake of this discussion, that /u/dullbananas is a homo sapiens, then I know, to a scientific certainty, that the more meat this homo sapiens consumes, the younger they will die, and the more major health consequences they will suffer.
Would you like to see the several significant and influential studies, some of which span several decades, that establishes this as an indisputable fact or would you just like to keep coming up with the same pat objections that everyone who wishes it was okay to keep eating meat tries to use to rationalize the decision?
I know, to a scientific certainty, that the more meat this homo sapiens consumes, the younger they will die, and the more major health consequences they will suffer.
no, you don’t
I think you meant to say, “no, you don’t, and I won’t look at any evidence to the contrary, la la la, i cannot hear you, la la la”
this is a straw man. it’s also not evidence.
I asked you if you wanted evidence and you just said stupid shit at me. Would you LIKE evidence, now?
You’ve been shouting at the sky this whole thread.
You do know vegans only want people to be vegan who can do so in a healthy way, right?
this is a smoke screen. that user made a specific claim and I pointed out that they are making it up
I pointed out that they are making it up
Is that what you think you are doing??
this is just posturing
I will literally dissolve down to a skeleton and die if I don’t see hear or smell animals having a bad time.
That’s why it’s so important.
/s get fucked.
Welcome on Lemmy!
I would join vegan standards but I still wait for the “eat the rich” part. I mean who would do it? Those vegans? no. This is a job for meat lovers.
Just don’t grow mushrooms or potatoes in billionaire compost. They have a tendency to uptake heavy metals from their nutrient source, and no one wants lead in their mushroom soup or mashed potatoes.
Compost the rich and use them to fertilize the fields.
Eating the rich is vegan, as they are not sentient and don’t feel pain.
But please stop paying for animal abuseno one is paying for animal abuse
Literally billions of people are. Do you think meat just spontaneously appears in the supermarket?
Literally billions of people are.
no, they aren’t.
Found the person that is
