• barsoap@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    so much that you’ll take their word that there aren’t any Nazis

    They never claimed that, the estimation was that about 20% of post-denazification Azov troops had an extreme right wing world view.

    just look at nato

    What. You might mean the CIA, the Regan administration was straight-up fash.

    and the frg of olde

    Yeah we had an autumn about that one.

    and afd etc today

    You mean the party 47% want straight outlawed? You know what’s even more interesting? 10% of AfD voters want to outlaw it!

    2/3rds of their poll results are protest voters not sharing their ideology and due to those 10% I think we can be sure that many of those are just doing it in opinion polls, and won’t actually cast ballots for them. Those protest votes are by and large from the east which has a significantly lower precentage of people with closed right-wing world-views than the west.

    Certainly brought the whole “the east still has shit political representation” issue back into focus, though OTOH I just have to be a besserwessi and say that noone is fucking stopping them from representing themselves.

    Oh, another tidbit: Many AfD voters are on welfare. The AfD implementing their stated policy would move wealth from that group to voters of other parties, so much so normal, but they on top of that want to disenfranchise then, tie voting rights to paying tax. If you’re into psychoanalysis and its recognition of forces such as Nazis as catabolic that’s like chef’s kiss, the fuckers even want to eat themselves.


    In any case: Azov is not a German battalion. Have a look at where Svoboda polls. Go over to youtube and watch some Dylan Burns, the man is gay and on the ground there.

    Stop defending Nazis.

    Stop being an actionist and base your decisions on data and analysis. How you analyse I don’t really care, come up with your own yardsticks but do triple down on applying them thoroughly and consistently.

    • xXthrowawayXx [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      Oh it’s only 1/5 Nazis! In that case they get to use the wolfsangel but they can’t use the totenkopf until they hit 1/8.

      This is absurd. They were Nazis, they used a symbol to appeal to Nazis. The name became synonymous with Nazis. Now the claim is they’re only 1/5 Nazis but it’s okay to use the same symbol and name.

      At this point what would convince you? If their marches included the Bellamy salute? If they brought the black sun back?

      You’re either so naive you can’t recognize the “new look, same great taste” strategy or you’re defending Nazis. I’ve been assuming the latter because the former is both sad and frightening.

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        At this point what would convince you? If their marches included the Bellamy salute?

        Unsupervised Nazis would do exactly that, yes. They don’t, so their number is either diluted to a degree where they don’t have cultural impact (Azov grew significantly after that 20% number) and/or the inerior ministry is keeping a lid on things by cracking down on Nazis who do Nazi things.

        And I mean this is what it’s about, isn’t it? Whether those Nazis do Nazi things. If they’re Nazis and don’t do Nazi things but instead risk their neck defending the country, why the fuck would anyone be opposed.

        In that vein:

        You’re either so naive you can’t recognize the “new look, same great taste” strategy or you’re defending Nazis.

        I think it’s you who’s protecting Nazis by insisting that they stay away from Russian soldiers. Why do you worry so much about their safety?

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            No, they’re bad Nazis, obviously, as all Nazis are bad. But currently they’re engaged in an activity which is beneficial.

            Why are you protecting Nazis from dying at the front? Why are you so worried about their well-being? Stop protecting Nazis!

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I’m also in favour of sending the proud boys to the front in case of Canada invading the US. Really, any defensive situation.

                Making them fight defensive wars is the only sensible use a society can make of fascists. In more senses than one.

                • xXthrowawayXx [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  You’d have a good point if the ukranian state was doing some kind of gloryless Suicide charge with them. Based on all they’ve said they’re integrating the Nazi militia into the state to fight alongside normal people and become war heroes.

                  Stop finding excuses to defend Nazis.

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    If you’d send them only on suicide missions they wouldn’t cooperate. Still, each Nazi on the front is one non-Nazi not needed at the front.

                    As to heroes: Needs must. In Germany we’re nuking Nazis in the military from orbit, we’re also disallowing Nazis from fighting in Ukraine’s foreign legions, because we don’t want to have Nazis skilled in combat. That, however, is a secondary concern when you’ve got Russia invading you.

                    As to heroes the second: The likes of right sector are very unpopular, politically speaking, in Ukraine. There’s plenty of non-Nazi war heroes – another reason to not have Nazis fight alone, so that there’s no valour that they can earn alone. They won’t be able to capitalise on having fought.

                • AcidSmiley [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  The only sensible use a society can make of nazis is as catapult ammunition. You DO NOT, under any circumstances, want to give fascists actual combat training and military action. That’s how you get Freikorps after the war. Why would you want that?

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Because read a bit more into the thread I addressed that. Right-wing bullshit is politically rather less popular in Ukraine than it was in WWI-era Germany. Context matters.