As title, if you have post or link any useful resource you have
Not that I was ever interested in being military, but I was at a lunch with two older lifelong army retirees. They kept talking about how military service broke their bodies and politicians won’t cover their medical costs. These injuries were independent of any combat: It’s just expected that you sell every part of yourself when you sign up.
Who wants to be 45 years old with a limp, be unable to hear a quiet conversation, and have horrible back problems?
I don’t know a single person who was in the military who has good things to say about it.
After training, sure, they’re all for it. After doing the job for real (combat or not) and getting out, not a single time that I can remember.
The founding fathers thought that standing armies make any leader a tyrant.
War is horrific. If we deem a military is necessary to a peaceful society to protect from threats both domestic and foreign, then we should have a draft of ALL able adults, not just the poor and underprivileged. Rich folks, political folks, and otherwise connected individuals should be subject to be put on the front lines right next to the rest of us. What that means is we might rethink, as a nation, any military action. An all volunteer military would be the next most preferable one that is paid equal or greater to the national average income with full lifetime benefits including healthcare for the whole body including mind, teeth, eyes, etc., pension, free education including masters and doctorate level education, housing, as well as meeting other basic needs of life.
Anything less than that should be unacceptable.
OP, nobody in that thread yesterday was saying it was a good thing. When a country gets invaded, your responses are always going to be a matter of lesser evils. Apologies for Godwin’s-Law-ing this off the bat, but it wasn’t great that the Allies drafted hundreds of thousands of people and invaded Nazi Germany. It was still better than every other option.
Godwin’s law itself always confused me. Of course comparisons with nazi Germany are overused, but it’s literally only 80 years ago. The fact that it could happen such a short time ago means that many of the same dangers, same lessons learned are very likely still completely applicable today. The human behaviors that led to Nazi Germany are still there, in/outgroup thinking, fear of foreigners/others, etc etc etc
So yeah I don’t think “Godwin’s law” existing as a concept should stop valid comparisons.
It doesn’t! It’s just a comment on how overused the comparisons are on the internet. To quote Godwin himself:
Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust.
The issue, from what I can tell, is that the question you’ve asked here doesn’t match the argument you just had in comments of a post about about the Ukraine war. The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad. You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine rather than leaving them to “defend themselves”.
There’s a few important details that such an argument (intentionally) ignores.
- This invasion was not a choice between war or no war. It was simply a decision between locations that battles take place. It is entirely legitimate for Ukraine to pursue a counteroffensive strategy into russian territory if it believes it to be a more effective military strategy than defensive attritional warfare within their own borders.
- The fact that combat is taking place in Russian territory doesn’t change the fact that the war itself is a defensive war against an aggressor with overtly territorial/imperialist goals.
- As far as I am aware, the units involved in the counteroffensive are exclusively non-drafted volunteer units.
- Cessation of funding to Ukraine would lead to their imminent loss. The fact that they have been able to innovate cheaper strategies like domestic drone usage doesn’t change the fact that war is extremely expensive and technology dependent, and their economy is dwarfed by that of Russia’s.
The combination of your proposals that Ukraine should not proactively fight back, and that they should lose access to the resources that would allow them to continue to defend their territory end us meaning that Ukraine would not be able to effectively defend itself.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”
The question asked in the thread title is really simple and you should try to stay on topic.
The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad.
You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine
You are twisting what i’ve said. I encourage you to read other people post better because i never made such claim.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”
If you believe that not being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is the equivalent of rolling over and dying you are probably victim of the propaganda. As other have suggested here i advise you to watch drones videos from this war where they roll over and die
Let’s go look at your comment history and check, shall we?
Defending yourself and launching invasions or orchestrating soldiers are two different things
It’s not defending yourself if you have an army! What a great take 👍
it sounds like the government is giving out plans and commanding the army. The government of ukraine and people from ukraine are two different things. When people ask what’s the alternative to send billions to the ukrainian government what they need to understand is that people can defend themself even without an authority on top of them playing war games with soldiers and possibly forcing conscript to go on missions
Oh, why did Ukraine never consider magically winning the war by sheer willpower instead of this “having an army” nonsense, smart!
I’m not twisting anything. Context matters, and the context of your post was you throwing a tantrum after around 10 different Lemmy users calling out your bad takes.
If you believe not being drafted blah blah blah
That’s not what I said at all, mere moments after you accused me of “twisting” what you said. What I said, louder for the people in the back is BEING UNABLE TO FIGHT BACK IN THE ENEMY’S TERRITORY, BEING DISALLOWED TO RECEIVE FOREIGN AID AND BEING DISALLOWED TO FORM AN ACTUAL ARMY is the equivalent of rolling over and dying.
The “invasion” of Russia isn’t an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.
It’s a war Russia started by invading Ukraine. Of fucking course it’s reasonable to expect Ukraine to counterattack.
You can’t simply hit someone unprovoked and then get mad when they hit back.
Or course drafting is controversial but it’s much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.
If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.
The “invasion” of Russia isn’t an invasion though. They have no desire (and no capability) to actually take land.
Russia propaganda be saying the same thing, for them it’s a “special operation” and not an invasion. The conversation you are replying to makes reference to another thread in which “orders to invade russia” were mentioned.
Or course drafting is controversial but it’s much less so when the purpose is to protect your country and home compared to what Russia is doing with their drafts where the only purpose is to kill and invade Ukraine.
So let me ask you something: if you were born in russia and kazakistan declares war to russia would you be fine with you and your friends be drafted by force and sent to the front fighting under the command of putin and its mobsters? Perhaps not everyone is willing to die burned alive in a trench, be it for the russian or ukrainian government.
If Russia surrendered with reasonable terms, Ukraine would obviously exit Russia. They have no desire to keep it.
Ukrainian people perhaps no. Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.
I would never be fine with fighting for a tyrannical country like Russia. I would absolutely fight Russia if they invaded my home and we somehow managed to counterattack on Russian territory.
Ukraine is a way better country than Russia, of course the majority of its people want to stay Ukrainian. And no I’m not saying Ukraine is perfect, it’s just better than Russia.
The government of ukraine and its politicians don’t seem too different from these or russia, germany, france, italy or usa. In all these countries climate activists gets beaten and civil protests get repressed. All these countries support israel in its genocide and sell weapons to saudi arabia. In a way or another they are all tyrannical and not worth die burned alive in a trench for.
Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn’t a democracy) are comparable to western nations?
Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press. Western nations aren’t perfect but they aren’t Russia bad. Look at pretty much any metric except land area, and you will see that Russia fucking sucks to live in.
Really? You really think that Russian politicians (aka Putin since Russia isn’t a democracy) are comparable to western nations?
Yes don’t you?
former pm of italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi
former pm of usa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
Russia is one of the worst places to live in when it comes to rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of press.
I would say saudi arabia it’s worst
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_States–Saudi_Arabia_arms_deal
Worldwide governments seem to have an interest in this war because they are doing everything to fuel it.
Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you’re a troll or an idiot.
Bingo. This nullifies your credibility. Either you’re a troll or an idiot.
That’s simply what is happening look around you. Rulers and politicians profits in war, the military industry is booming, the cash is flowing. You think the really same people aiding israel in its genocide gives a fuck about peasants dying in a war?
Companies mentioned in an article you linked aren’t getting the cash flow enough to warrant any improvement in related economies. I see Russian politicians profiting off various things during war but they were doing the same before.
So, short effects of the war on economies are not worth the long term effects of deaths of many consumers anywhere. Using the “war helps economy” argument while forgetting how the deaths and active aggression affect the world and lives, is a manipulation, which is also heavily used by those aggressors (Russia).
Telling Israel is doing a genocide without mentioning what hamas were doing to Israel is also a manipulation.
You can’t make a person understand anything. If the very simple explanation of “draft the unwilling and send them to die” doesn’t convince them, they don’t want to be convinced. I couldn’t name a single person who thinks that’s good, just maybe some folks who would say it’s sometimes a grim necessity. And I guess I’m in the latter camp, but shit would have to be dire.
Yeah like somebody else said, you’d have to challenge their philosophical believes that leads them to hold this opinion first.
And that in turn requires argueing them from a position not based on “I disagree, and my opinion is the correct one”, but on philosophical, logical and argumentative flaws in their believe system. Which is not easy to do. At all. It’s in fact very hard, made harder by the fact that our brains can see information, actively realize this information is correct and contradicts something we thought of earlier, and yet also discard said information and stick to the existing mental model instead. Meaning that even if you do everything correct, they might go “Yes, that’s true” and then nothing happens, out of no ill will.
Show them some videos of people getting blown up by FPV drones. If that doesn’t get them to think, nothing will.
If someone’s romanticizing war to the point that they’re thinking being drafted isn’t a bad thing then no amount of sources or stats would convince them otherwise. I mean, best case scenario they get randomly yanked away from their life, family, and friends and get to burn barrels of shit in the middle of nowhere. How fun.
Whether it’s a good thing or not depends entirely on your philosophical views. There is no objectively correct answer, and which arguments may convince someone very much depends on the values and perspectives of the person you are trying to convince.
How do you make someone realize that their philosophical views are bad then?
That’s not how it works. It isn’t your way or the highway
You can’t force someone to believe something
First you set up a news agency. You tune into their fear of inadequacy. You craft stories and spin truths to Make sure that they’re good and scared of the future of them and their family. You keep slowly chipping away until they have no problem with suspension of disbelief. You make sure that day and their friends all have the right tools to indoctrinate each other. Then you get small and big business on board by offering them tons of money to help keep everybody good and scared. You craft laws and put people in the right places in police organizations to make sure that the people you’re trying to scare them with are seen as the Boogeyman. Sure, it’s not technically forcing but it’s forcing…
How could one convince you that your philosophical views are bad?
Perhaps by bringing up resources that prove my philosophical views bad
So have you tried that with the people who agree with the draft? Did you find it was convincing to them?
What kind of resources are we talking about here? Clearly it doesn’t help to make you talk to 1 person that holds contrasting views, as that seems to be your starting point. A study of 1000? A study of 100000? An empirical research over 100 years? 500? A meta analysis? 5 people talking to you about it? 10? 100?
Sorry, I’m completely immovable on the stance that war is bad. Never once has mass human slaughter made the world a better place.
I understand that, like everything, there are those who disagree. Moral relativism aside, those people are wrong, in the sense that I have zero tolerance for supporting campaigns of mass death.
Is every alternative preferable to war? For example, should Ukraine have agreed to become part of Russia to avoid war?
Quite a few nations capitulated against the Nazis within days or even without a fight to avoid war. It saved a lot of lives. Does that make it the right choice? Who is to say…
What’s for sure is that Boris shouldn’t have vetoed the peace agreement in 2022.
I didn’t think it saved lives, since it empowered the Nazis to kill more people. So I say no it wasn’t the right choice.
Look it’s hard to say if it saved lives in the overall ww2 tally, but surrender to save lives was the rationale of the Generals eg in The Netherlands. They looked at what the Luftwaffe had done to Rotterdam, looked at what weapons they had themselves, considered the prospect of what was going to happen to Utrecht next, and decided that further resistance was futile. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#German_occupation
So if you have an immoveable stance against war, isn’t it just as likely someone out there believes they have a similarly immovable stance in favor of the draft?
Yeah, and that person, unlike me, is evil, because they are able to see human lives as pawns in a political game.
Uh, just to be clear, I’m not actually trying to sway you. Just pointing out to OP, and to you I guess since you’re engaging, that when someone holds an “immoveable stance” as they themselves say, and aren’t open to changing their views, it is highly unlikely one can convince them to change. Like, someone could up to you and say you’re wrong and evil for your views but that probably isn’t going to convince you, right?
We don’t have a way to do this. I don’t think we ever will. Wish the answer was different.
The one thing I will say is that logical argument is extremely ineffective for changing people’s views. Personal, emotional stories are best. The issue is that war and the draft is already highly emotionally charged, so it’s gonna be hard to find something that will strike a nerve with someone who hasn’t already come around on it.
Classically, you’d discuss their views with them and find the logical conclusions. Then you’d talk though if those ideas contradict with other ideas they hold. That sort of discussion/dialogue is basically all of Plato.
Ask them to do so themselves, voluntarily.
If they refuse, the argument stands.
If they accept, you won’t convince this person.
Issue is that “old people” had to spend their time in the army, sometimes even in a foreign land (Good old time of the colonial war), so kids these day feel so privileged
I mean, we can blame the boomer for a lot of thing, but in the 60’s and sometimes 70’s (In many countries) young men had no option but do a military service which way involved going to fight to keep the colonies.
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
Just read through their comment history and make your own mind. This is not genuine and most everyone is just feeding the troll.
The question itself is worth asking though. A lot of good points here, but they’d be better given in good faith for someone genuine.
“All my takes are so perfect no one but a troll could disagree with me”
They need to drag it down to personal attacks and othering because all liberals can do is justify why x and y group deserve genocide and solitary confinement for life.
The distinction between liberals is which groups there form of orthodoxy allows the military and the prisons to be directed at, they can agree on a few things though, mainly the ongoing enslavement of black americans and the genocide of palestine.
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
You sound like a victim of propaganda. Arguments to convince people that a forced draft is bad does not benefit the russian government or any other. I encourage you to read other people posts better and to think with your own brain.
My reading comprehension is just fine, your lack of capability to understand context and tendency to deal in absolutes and binaries in a world made of wide spectrums, shades of gray and unpredictability, on the other hand, does not seem to pass the smell test.
Either you argue in bad faith, are intentionally a shifting contrarian or just not competent enough to either understand the world or at the very least discuss it with others in a way that makes sense.
Do you approve of Russias invasion of Ukraine?
Do you approve of the Ukranian invasion of Ukraine?
Instance checks out.
Il take that as a yes.
No, I just have no idea what you are talking about. But it’s probably some weird ass tankie shit.
Its very apparent
No and i do not approve any other country invasion of another. What about you?
Russia’s invasion is totally unjustified.
I think starting a war is very rarely justified. The evil prevented by attacking would need to be much larger than the inherent evil of the war. That’s pretty close to Justinian just war theory, but I’d weight present known evils much more highly than theoretically reduced future evils to account for uncertainty. For example, I think an allied invasion into Nazi Europe was justified.
“Ukraine is wrong and they shouldn’t actually have any military at all btw, also I’m not a Russian troll”
— You
It’s like watching a middle-schooler pick a fight, lose, then go crying to an adult that he’s being bullied. You’re pathetic.
I’m Finnish and have done my conscription and it was one of the best years of my life. I wouldn’t want to go into war, but I would definitely go and fight Russia if they had invaded Finland.
Like Ukraine has done, defending their country from the Russian “#+special military operation.”
Go cry into your limited access to the global community, Ruski. Slava Ukraini.
“Ukraine is wrong and they shouldn’t actually have any military at all btw, also I’m not a Russian troll”
never said such thing, that’s actually you saying it
never said such thing
No, it’s what is implied. Perhaps you don’t know the word?
So you think Ukraine is wrong to defend itself from Russian military aggression. You’ve admitted that.
The only people who think Russia is in the right about this are propaganda trolls and brainwashed Russian iidjits.
Are you trying to say Ukraine is wrong to go into Russia?
“Are you trying to say U̶k̶r̶a̶i̶n̶e̶ the government of ukraine who is drafting against their will disabled men with heart disease, spinal injuries, epilepsy, autism, and other illnesses and disorders is wrong in ordering its soldier to invade Russia?”
This doesn’t sound good to me, nodoby should do this or have the power to do it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine#2024
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-soldiers-thought-order-to-invade-russia-was-joke-2024-8
Going into Russia has been a huge tactical success for them, we will see if it’s a strategic success, but chances are looking good. Drafting people against their will is kinda the definition of a draft. I haven’t looked into the exceptions or lack thereof specifically though.
Do you have a problem with Ukraine invading Russia at all after Russia is trying to annihilate them as a country? Do you have a problem with their conscription policies? Or a problem with using conscripts in the attack into Russia? Or a combination of those three?
I don’t think being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is a good thing regardless of who you are.
Irrelevant. If we’re learning, good for us.
Sure. But it might be useful for someone to know this before dedicating time responding genuinely. If it’s still irrelevant, great. If it might change someone’s mind about spending their time, then also great.
Only giving context here. Might be relevant to some.
Observe above me, a liberal unable to compherhend any dissenting opinion to his liberal orthodoxy engaging in ‘othering’.
It was obvious. All good.
Being drafted (which is forced labour where you additionally have a high chance of being killed or wounded) is always not okay, not just when it is done to invade another country.
I didn’t think it’s wrong universally, for example, Ukraines current offensive into Russia.
No argument for the draft is valid.
Would you rather see Ukraine fall to Russia than implement a draft?
Loaded question but yes
Why ought countries risk their existence to avoid a draft? The government already dictates other matters of life and death. Forgoing a draft would force bigger permanent militaries and not allow for some defense in depth strategies.
How about WWII? Should the allies have been significantly weaker and prolonged how long the Nazis were in power to avoid a draft?
The possible benefits of something unethical doesn’t justify doing it.
I’d hold a lesser of two evils justify it. The government already dictates what you need to do. Is it the commanded act of killing people that you think takes it too far?
a lesser of two evils justufies it
Again, no it doesnt.
the government already dictates what you need to do
what? no?
is the command act of killing people that you think takes it too far?
any forced labor takes it too far.
Ukraine is using special forces for this, who are well paid professionals with strong ideological under pinnings. Those guys are into that shit.
OP is about Russian consript who got deployed in Ukraine “by mistake”
But I’d be okay with Ukraine deploying conscripts to that front.
I don’t have anything specific, but generally speaking those who idolize war have never seen the horrors of war. Speaking with veterans who have actually seen real combat is a good place to start.
