Living conditions subpar in a country fighting of a brutal invasion & genocide?
Get the fuck outta here.
In early August, deputies of the Ukraine president’s ‘Servant of the People’ party in the national legislature (‘Rada’) introduced a bill that provides for the conscription of forced labor of all those who have not been conscripted to the armed forces. Formally free citizens who already cannot legally leave the country due to wartime restrictions will now also be subjected to forced labor.
This was really inevitable, yeah.
I don’t think that you fully understand what’s happening. This is not Call of Duty. Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war. Right now, you’re helping Russia.
Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war
and how do you imagine they’ll do that exactly? how are they even to begin resolving their political issues when all leftwing parties have been banned, unions are severely restricted, and strikes and protests have been made illegal? even if the allow for free elections again, any post-war government will have to act adhere to the neoliberal repayment programs of the IMF and other foreign actors, meaning further wage cuts, more austerity, more privatization
Good points, but what’s the alternative? At least Ukraine has a chance to even have internal politics after the war.
and how do you imagine they’ll do that exactly?
That’s not my business. Ukrainians have showed multiple times over the past 30 years that they know how to deal with bad politicians. Don’t try to come up and solve problems that don’t exist today. Today the country as at war and not spreading Russian propaganda the least we could do.
That’s not my business.
What is your business then exactly? Is it property, or people? You seem to be on the side of property with no regard for the conditions of the people who exist on that property.
It’s the Sargon of Akkad tactic of screaming “I don’t care!” while inserting themselves into every single conversation. Somehow they seem to think their dumb uninformed opinions are always equally worthy of merit despite doing zero homework. If you look into the thread, you’ll notice most people didn’t even read the article.
Oh, you think that reading nonsense online makes you smart, worthy and informed? Lol.
but these problems do exist today? that’s literally the whole point of the article. and what they’re experience today—extreme salary cuts, austerity, longer work days, poorer access to public goods—isn’t going to magically go away once the war is over. especially not when every avenue ukrainians have to protests their government is being criminalized
Okay, go ahead, attack the Ukrainian government for having poor living conditions during the war if that makes the most sense to you under given circumstances.
So are we just supposed to allow (heck, even support!) Ukraine despite them implementing a system of modern slavery for their people, blocking civilians from fleeing, and forced conscription, some of it even slated to last even beyond the end of the war, because to even criticise it is “helping Russia”? Helping Russia do what, exactly? Look better than Ukraine? That’s on Ukraine to be the big boy.
This is not Call of Duty, a war is waged for political reasons, and therefore the politics of it should be laid bare.
They are not implementing a system of modern slavery, they’re protecting their country and fighting for their lives.
I’m quoting again:
The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to “ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law”, in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law. Just such a proposal was recently made by Vadym Denysenko […], head of the Ukrainian Institute for the Future and a former advisor to the head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Denysenko said, “I am sure that even after the war it will be necessary to extend the ban on men traveling abroad for at least another three years. Otherwise, we simply will not survive as a nation.”
Please illuminate me in your wisdom, how banning people from leaving while conscripting them to either fight in the front or forced labour is not a form slavery. Whose lives are being saved by arresting people trying to flee the country?
Don’t you get it? People come and go, they live and die but what lasts is lines on maps. The lines on the map are the only thing that matters. If Russia moves the line on the map into Ukraine to cover people that want to live in Russia whats to stop them from moving other lines into other nations where people who speak Russian feel persecuted by their government and nazis?
People over here sound so much like CK2 players that I get flashbacks to the thrashfire Pagan Fury dlc soundtrack. “You don’t understand, they’re fighting a genocide! Which is why we must conscript and self-genocide the entirety of Ukraine to prevent the separatist half of Ukraine from being genocided by their allies!”
Jesus, you sound psychotic. borderline nationalist. people being forced into slavery for the sake of their countey? for the sake of the donbas? really? would you be a slave for lines on a map?
like, seriously. jews in the Holocaust did hard labor for Germany’s lines on the map. is that justified? to save germany from the allies? what is wrong with you?
Yes, you should support Ukraine. No it’s not slavery.
Care to elaborate? AFAIK, forced labour under the threat of harm and no conditions for escape fits very well into most modern definitions of slavery. But go on, why should I support Ukraine despite this?
They are being invaded.
But you don’t care about that, you’re a tankie who defends genocide.
I don’t follow. Yes, they are at war. How does that justify labour conscriptions and banning fleeing? I do care about people not dying and having dignity, you see. But sending teenagers into slaughter or forcing them to work to that same slaughter industry doesn’t help anybody. It is basically a self-genocide by the Ukrainian government. No wonder that it started as a war against eastern Ukrainians.
Who here exactly defends genocide when the only thing I want in this war is for the suicidal tactics of the Ukrainian government to pause for a second so that civilians can flee and live better lives elsewhere? But you don’t care about that, you’re a liberal who will justify every war crime from your favourite North Atlantic countries and their puppet governments, under the guise of empathy.
See, 2 can play that game of ad hominem. Answer the question: “How is this not comparable to a modern slave state?”
You’re excusing the genocide of the separatist regions and making up nonsense about this being ww2 2.0. You’re the real genocide denier.
Ha, a throwback to my childhood.
“If we don’t send thoughtlessy load more people and munitions into the meat grinder right this minute, then the terrorists win!”
Ukraine has never asked to send people. You have no idea what’s happening and why, do you?
Lol we’ve have a news megathread every day since the SMO started full of military, economic, historical and sociological analysis regarding every new develpoment in the region. You should stop in sometime, you might learn something.
Like how the US and it’s vassals are shoving Ukranians into the meat grinder by torpedoing. every round of negotiations. But hey, I don’t expect you forced conscription and cluster bomb enthusiasts to be well-versed in any situation when it’s so much easier to just vibe out and cheer for Our Team.
This war is a result of Ukraine’s internal political issues, namely it’s insistence on claims to territories that don’t want to be a part of Ukraine.
He WANTS to help Russia… Don’t feed the troll.
oh my god you’re one of those idiots
Literally every single country on this planet will do this when forced to fight a defensive war.
Civil liberties are fine and well but in wartime that goes out the window real quick regardless of ideological orientation of the government.
I wish liberals would understand this in the context of communist movements struggling to get out from under global capitalist hegemony and violent dominance. Like, China pushing into the South China Sea is seen as terrible and authoritarian but Taiwan is literally a separatist government from the losers of the civil war protected by the global imperialists who dominated China for well over a century and have encircled China with 600+ military bases and a global torture program, among other things.
Now let’s here your opinion on Stalin.
Totalitarian dipshit that ruined communism. Though I am willing to overlook authoritarian wartime measures taken in the defense of the country against the invading nazi germany, because that’s what I just said no?
What’s yours of the Russian agenda? Why must Ukraine surrender its territory to an aggressor in the name of saving lives, and not the Russians get the fuck out to save lives?
Why shouldn’t the people of the region, who really want to be a part of Russia, get to decide?
You’re fine when Texas leaves Mexico to join the US, but not when the Donbas leaves Ukraine to join Russia?
All the liberal scumbags downvoting. Imagine being the kind of piece of shit that cheers on a war and then doesn’t even want to look at what the result of that war is on the people of the country. All of you are the definition of human garbage.
We’re the ones cheering on the war?! Are you shitting me? We aren’t the ones bending over backwards to justify this invasion. We aren’t the ones justifying Russia indiscriminately bombing Ukraine’s cities. We aren’t the ones justifying letting loose an army of convicts and rapists on Ukraine’s population. Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.
Yeah, every single scumbag who supports continuation of this war can go fuck themselves. Better yet, go sign your worthless ass up for the foreign legion and fight yourself instead of forcing other people to die for your ideology.
So we’re in agreement then. Russia needs to withdraw from Ukraine immediately so that peace talks can take place.
Ukraine needs to stop occupying the provinces that rightfully want to split from the far right regime, then peace talks can start
Unlike Russia, Ukraine is not ruled by fascists and no provinces that want to secede from Ukraine either.
You know, it’s fascinating how some people on the left are willing to side with fascism just because it happens to oppose “the West”. Talk about ideological inconsistencies.
Wow no way so these guys
Didn’t have their people’s best interests at heart?? Do you even know how much like Putler you sound???
Lemme just summarize the comment section for anybody else who comes along.
Russian apologist: Ukraine bad.
Replies: No. Unprovoked war makes things bad.We don’t need to know what “bad” means, right? Ukraine is bad due to some magical inherent property, not because of instituting drafts and migration bans, right? I am of the position that the war (which wasn’t necessarily unprovoked to begin) wasn’t the main cause of those things I am criticising, the government proposing those is the one at fault. I think that framing is at least a bit more complete than just “Ukraine bad.”
And never mind calling critical people Russian apologists, like one can’t hold critical views of both sides of a conflict.
God we have explained ourselves not to be pro russia numerous times are you liberals fucking illiterate
boosting to make this appear on hexbear active
I know multiple Ukrainian men who are trying to leave or have already left. No sane person wants to stay in that shell of a country, and lose a leg to a Russian mine.
Western liberals, please ship yourself over there and die already. We don’t need your Nazi apologies.
Russia is bombing Ukrainian civilians non stop, but yeah, let’s blame the West for bad living conditions. Unbelievable.
The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to “ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law”, in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law.
How exactly is Russia’s bombs the only factor in the Ukrainian government imposing labour conscription on their people? Surely if they’re so democratic, they could’ve found some other way to go about fixing the labour shortage.
You really don’t see how it’s a consequence of the invasion?
Such measures are nothing out of ordinary for a defending nation.
We can go all the way back to Gorbachev and we won’t find a single root cause of this present situation, but many factors. But I see no reason to assume that the Russian SMO on the DPR and LPR is the sole, deterministic cause of this labour conscription, disregarding all agency of the Ukrainian government and NATO on their own internal policy matters. Japan might’ve started the war against the USA in WW2, but I don’t think it removes the agency of the USA government from putting their Japanese-Yankee citizens in internment camps or nuking Japan twice.
What the other comment seems to imply is that all the issues there are caused solely by Russia’s participation in the Donbas War, disregarding how the article goes in detail about how some of those (such as the labour draft) are policies made by the Ukrainian government. It is clear as day that the Ukrainian government values retaking the east and privatising its property much more than the lives of the citizens they claim to protect.
We can go all the way back to Gorbachev and we won’t find a single root cause of this present situation
Russian imperialism, there you go. It’s both funny and sad how you communists get so blinded by the US hate that you automatically go for Russia good, even though it’s an authoritarian kleptocracy with no relationship to communism.
What the other comment seems to imply is that all the issues there are caused solely by Russia’s participation in the Donbas War
Yes, that’s the prime determinant of the current situation.
It is clear as day that the Ukrainian government values retaking the east
Ukrainian government is still fighting for the existence of the Ukrainian state and against genocide of the Ukrainian identity.
Russian imperialism, there you go.
Wow, I had never considered before that Russia might be in the war. \s
Yeah, if you see every geopolitical conflict this simplistically, you’ll often find that the exact group you already dislike is the cause of all your problems. There’s no other way this could’ve gone, the moment Putin got in power we could already all predict that Zelensky would be elected and that his government would ban all men aged 18 to 60 from fleeing the conflict. It was also similarly inevitable that there would be mass conscriptions not only for war but also for work. Tangentially nobody but Putin had any impact on whether Azov would be formed or on the war against the Donbas separatists.
This was all solely the fault of a single group and nothing anybody else could’ve done. Come on now, child, you know that politics is not as simple as that. And if you think I somehow think that “Russia good,” because I criticise the other side of the war, you might need to read some history of bourgeois wars. It’s a reactionary liberal bourgeois country, just like the USA, but much smaller, less entrenched, and with some opposing interests, if you want my opinion on them. It’s not really relevant though.
Yes, that’s the prime determinant of the current situation.
So could Ukraine not find other solutions to their present crises? Off the top of my head, accepting Russia’s ceasefire requests, letting their civilians leave and not demanding that every worker also present their conscription documents in order to work, all sound like pretty good initiatives to combat the labour shortage. But no, obviously the Ukrainian govt has no agency on their own country and it’s all only in Russia’s court.
Ukrainian government is still fighting for the existence of the Ukrainian state and against genocide of the Ukrainian identity.
No they aren’t. The Ukraine state has had it’s existence guaranteed by Russia so long as they concede defeat and allow the independence of the eastern separatists. Besides that, just also not joining NATO. Russia has shown very little interest in annexing the entirety of Ukraine and the Ukrainian identity is safe and sound within the conscript dictatorship of Ukraine. If anything, the NATO puppet government probably has more Ukrainian blood on their hands than Russia for insisting on this lost war for the past 1 year.
But do spell it out then. How is Ukraine’s draft only Russia’s fault, with no responsibility for it at the Ukrainian government’s/NATO’s feet? I’d be happy to hear it.
There’s no other way this could’ve gone
Of course, it could have gone differently. Putin’s mother could find a different lover and the world would look differently. Putin’s mother is therefore one of the causes, just like the infinite amount of other factors.
What you’re doing now is the equivalent of analyzing why a certain woman got raped. Factor 1, she’s single, no husband to protect her, factor 2, she went to the club, factor 3 she wore a short skirt … You’re desperately trying to analyze the “factors” to shift the attention, and the blame from the rapist.
So could Ukraine not find other solutions to their present crises?
Again, victim blaming.
The Ukraine state has had it’s existence guaranteed by Russia so long as they concede defeat and allow the independence of the eastern separatists.
And the “de-nazification”, de-militarization, ceding Kherson and Zaporozhija Oblast, no NATO or other protection. You end up with a rump state just like Czechoslovakia after Munich decree, helpless and ready to be re-invaded (March 1939).
my god you’re daft.
Putin’s mother is therefore one of the causes, just like the infinite amount of other factors.
This war would happen with or without putin, the war is due to the collapse of the soviet union, the far right Ukrainian coup, and the Ukrainian government bombing their own people for almost a decade.
