I am considering moving to Germany and was told that regions in the south are more conservative, so much so that an acquaintance ex-pat said they would never want to live there. Looking online there are some sources to support this notion but nothing concrete. I am wanting to move mostly because I loved the country and the people I met while traveling (specifically in Munich and Freiburg) but was hoping to land somewhere that queer folks are more accepted. I didn’t get any bad vibes while traveling but that was nearly a decade ago now.
Another German friend recommended moving to Berlin for these reasons and I’m wondering if German conservative is anything remotely close to US conservative. The conservatives near where I live now fly Trump and confederate flags, love to put those “I did that” Biden stickers on the gas pumps when prices go up, and the local schoolboard managed to pass anti-trans bathroom policies that affected something like 5 students in the entire district. Is it anything like this in parts of Germany?
German here. Lived in Hamburg and Munich for about half my life each. They call Bavaria the Texas of Germany, but that’s just in relation to the rest of Germany politically. German conservatism is nothing like American conservatism, thank God. Right-wing disinformation cancer is spreading in Germany, like it is anywhere else (AFD in the east). Any LGBTQ folks don’t need to worry in any big cities. I’d recommend Munich over Berlin, but that’s personal preference (Berlin is like Germany’s London, loud, dirty, exciting, more crime than any other part of Germany, which is still less than most places in the US). Like, you won’t ‘feel’ the difference between Hamburg and Munich politically. In Berlin you might find a few more people openly displaying their left or right leaning tendencies. It’s also much cheaper than Munich, not sure if that matters.
That’s encouraging to hear. I’m just worried about moving across the world to a place I really loved only to get crooked looks from neighbors when they see my partner and I together, which is exactly the sort of thing I want to get away from. I’m a software developer so I’ll likely need to move to a city to find work regardless, but really do enjoy the more rural settings. Thanks for the insight :)
How is your German? In Berlin you’ll be fine with English. In the other big cities, you’ll already notice less proficiency. You’ll be fine, but you’ll notice it from time to time and English speaking jobs will be few and far between. Rural areas are hopeless lol
You know I went to Europe for the first time thinking I was hopeless when it came to foreign languages. But after spending a week in Germany I could use basic greetings, numbers and was starting to understand some common phrases; a very fun experience honestly. I regret not continuing to learn formally, but if we commit to Germany then I’ll have a few years to take lessons beforehand.
Ideally I want to live rural and work remote, same situation I have here, but I understand that is a rare privilege and hard to find everywhere.
You will be totally fine in any of the bigger cities.
I’d probably recommend the south even.
I live in Munich and it’s not crazy here at all. At least by American standards. While people call Munich a big village it does not come with the backwards political attitude of villages and people generally don’t openly advertise their political views. The state of Bavaria often likes to protrait itself as first among equals in politics which I think is where the reports of conservatism come from but it’s not a problem I think.
Ok the queer subject: there has been a specifically gay subculture in Munich for quite a while and I think there are quite some queer folks in the local chaos computer club chapter as well. The Christopher street day is also celebrated in Munich.
Munich is a beautiful city, I’m sure you will feel quite at home once you got past the (comparatively) frosty German attitude and made some friends :)
Edit: formatting
Honestly I’m fine with the frosty attitudes and being ingored compared to the super fake and passive aggressive bs from folks here in the US. Thanks for the insight
While traveling an American also admitted that it was refreshing to get a straight answer to their questions instead of the usual “bs and second guessing”. Seems like it must be hard to have a serious conversation in the states.
I’ve tried to write several responses defining how Americans talk to each other and it’s just so sad and hard to explain. “Small talk” is the phrase that comes to mind: obligatory, cliche, repeated statements with expected standard answers. It’s miserable
I’m from germany. We recently went out for drinks with a researcher and a few students from the US. What I noticed about their communication was that it seemed a lot more … well, practiced maybe? Like they were working in retail and they got stuck in their “customer service voice” :P . Also a bit more focus on showmanship. Didn’t feel like you could get a genuine or personal answer out of them.
I think I’m general you are right, the south is more Conservative. This ist probably because the south is rich. Most Money in Germany is produced in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg (where I live) and Hesse. They cling to their money very badly, hence the conservative mindset. That being said, there are very progressive hotspots. The Capitals for example (Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart) are very open for differing views and Social political ideas. But you can go even better. If you look for City’s with high Student concentrations you go more and more left. I am from Tübingen and this place hates conservatives. Anti LGBTQ Ideas must fear for ther physical protection. The same thing will be true in Freiburg and Konstanz in BW but I am sure there are places in the other two country’s aswell. Can you give us an estimate where to go and how progressive the people should be? Then we will a place, I am sure.
Partner is looking to go to university (for law) and I’ll be either looking for a programmer position or trying to figure out a freelancer situation. What I’m seeing is that pretty much anywhere in Germany is a step up from the sinking ship that is the US right now in terms of conservative insanity. I prefer a quiet life mostly spent at home with pets and family with the option to go out on the town for a good meal and fun once in awhile or attend a festival a few times a year. Nightlife is preferred as well, sun bad
Freiburg seems like a good choice i live there currently. Nightlife is not crazy tho, just a few clubs and after midnight most is closed. There are regular city festivals and lakes to swim nearby. Also its the city with the most sun in Germany ocer the year.
We stayed in Freiburg for a week and loved every minute of it. It was our first choice until someone started me on this idea of the south being conservative. I understand cities in general are more liberal, especially university towns, but I don’t want to live in a haven surrounded by bigotry once you leave the city proper
Edit: Im not saying that’s what Freiburg is, I hope it isn’t.
Don’t worry the American conservative, is not comparable to German conservative. Right in Europe is more comparable to center Left in the US political spectrum. And Freiburg is more left than right for sure. The most right political spectrum in Germany you will find in east Germany Saxony.
As a SW-German, I’d say it is way more a rural vs. urban thing. In the greater Stuttgart area f.i. don’t worry about openly living a gay lifestyle. If you live out in the woods, it might be different, but not necessarily so.
That being said, SW’eners are generally way more conservative towards any kind of “fun” or “flamboyant“ things - legacy of the very pietist history here.
I would say that around Fasching time, things get pretty fun & flamboyant, even in the rural areas of BW.
Well, that’s your opinion….
Well I have seen some pretty conservative farmer types get on the village stage and dance in drag, but maybe you have been to some Fasching celebrations that were tame?
I found Fasching - at least for me - had almost always had kind of a staged and unnatural feel to it. It definitely does not meet my expectations for a liberal, welcoming vibe that encourages self-love and -expression. But that maybe just me…
Thank you for that thoughtful explanation. It’s a perspective I hadn’t considered.
Queer German woc here. And in tech too ! :D Yes, I do find it conservative. I live in Berlin. For all the hate that non Berliners like to lay on Berlin, it’s an accepting vibrant place. And if you are vegan, you’ll be spoilt for dining options. Vietnamese is crazy good here. And, concerts, there are multiple shows for different genres practically everyday. And several of them at sort of low-key underground places with their own charm. Berlin has its pitfalls but I don’t underestimate the peace of not being stared at constantly for just living my life. Oh, and racism in rural areas: If you ain’t white, enjoy some extra stares even when grocery shopping. Living outside the ring zone will give you the relatively quiet life you want. Rent is not cheap though. Cheaper than Munich though. But the rental crisis here is no joke either. There are some fun hacker and maker spaces here in Berlin: xhain and cbase for example that could be interesting for you. One thing I do live about Munich: if you are a hiker / mountain climber, that place is excellent. So many mountains and trails are nearby !!
Would you be able to afford remote workcation kinda thing ? You can test out the cities and see how you vibe with it.
You hit on every topic I am considering, Berlin is sounding more in line with what I want. While I am not a poc I still have no interest in living around racists. It would be such a welcome change to be around more queer people, vegan options and a general sense of peace. I wouldn’t really consider leaving the US if it were not for the increasing sense of hostility around and the insane amount of anti-lgbtqia laws popping up. Workation is the next step I think, probably sometime around summer of 2024.
If I might ask, what is the acceptance of trans folks like within the queer scene in Berlin?
That is 300% the stereotype of Berlin. But it’s true. If you like to be surrounded by leftist, queer, vegan people and waiters that speak english better than german: Berlin is your place.
Maybe look up where to live. You said you like a more rural place… Many many other people also like to live in the outskirts and surrounding areas of Berlin. But it’s a bit different from other rural areas. I think it’s called the “Speckgürtel”.
Also i’d like to mention the city of Cologne, which is known for being queer.
One City that doesn’t get mentioned much here is Tübingen(~70k) in the south. Its pretty much as liberal as Berlin, probably the most accepting city under 500k population in Germany. It is ridiculously beautiful with a huge old town, and as someone who is queer and spends time there often, it feels very safe. The queer community is huge because there is tons of students. It has amazing City Planning / Cycling Infrastructure / Public Transport, and the surrounding nature is beautiful as well.
Disclaimer: I’m not trans myself. My experience/opinion is formed by listening to my trans friends and observing their experience.
Berlin is largely leftist with some anarcho spaces. Trans acceptance is mandated entry requirement. I’m sure some ahole wiggles in occasionally but I’ve seen others get very vocal and kick them out immediately. I would say it’s an accepting place with several social events geared towards the LGBTQ community. A friend of mine is from the US too and she came to Berlin because of the issues she faced in her home country as a (trans) woman. It’s been about a decade since she got here. I can find out about some forums, spaces you can talk / ask questions in. I don’t want to presume the details and speak for the trans community. Shall I look into it and pm you ?
i am from the north…real north…born 200m off the coast…the “conservativism” of the south is insane to me. switzerland and austria are even worse. it is not really about being a conaervative but that it is their coping mechanism to function as facists in a democracy.
for example in Badenwürtenberg there is a green minister whose perspectives on working with nationalists or how to tackle climate change are trump-level dumb/conservative.
over the years i got to meet several new friends that for various reasons had to start their migration to german in bavaria…and ALL of them were shocked once they were free to enter the civilized parts of germany. one girl had to go to school in munich and after she was free never went to bavaria again because of the constant hate. like facists in the US feed off triggering libs, tze south loves giving the impression equality is just because they allow it.
…but south east is worse…so, maybe dont go there.
