• BombOmOm@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The question has always been what does one do when the renewables aren’t providing enough power (ex: nights, etc). The current solution is natural gas. It would be a big improvement if we would use a carbon-free source like nuclear instead.

    • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      The growing idea is to just have a shit load of renewables, everywhere. The wind is always blowing somewhere, and the sun shines through the clouds. If you have a ridiculous excess total capacity then even when you’re running at limited capacity you could still cover the demand. Basically, most of our renewable infrastructure would actually be curtailed or offline a lot of the time.

      • ephemeral_gibbon@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        And that opens up opportunities for energy intensive industries like aluminium or hydrogen production to run whilst there’s an excess of energy

        • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          I’m all for green hydrogen production, it’s using hydrogen in place of fossil fuels that bothers me. We already have a shit load of demand for hydrogen from industrial uses, and it would take 3x the world’s total renewable capacity in 2019, dedicated solely to hydrogen production, to meet this with green hydrogen. If we start adding transportation into that demand we’ll never make it, and it will be far less efficient than other energy sources (eg batteries).

          So yeah, we should have green hydrogen production, but we shouldn’t listen to those same people when they say they think it should also be used for transportation. That’s just trying to increase the size of the market to increase profits.

          • ephemeral_gibbon@aussie.zone
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            1 year ago

            Hydrogen works well with a renewable grids because you can take advantage of the times there is excess energy production so that power doesn’t just go to waste.

            We do need to be careful because hydrogen is often sold as a pipe dream by gas companies to convince us to use gas (e.g. “this new gas turbine power plant can be converted to hydrogen”, even though that’d be a workload less efficient than fuel cells).

            As for its use in transport, it looks like battery electric vehicles have won that battle for personal vehicles. Both have their advantages but in practice there are few enough fuel stations for hydrogen and enough chargers that that’s not going to flip.

            However, batteries are entirely unsuitable to long distance, high load transport like trucks. Ideally they’d be replaced by rail, but that’s not happening anytime soon in many places so hydrogen likely will be the solution there.

    • relative_iterator@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      consumers may also help reduce system costs by adapting their electricity consumption to the availability of renewable energy

      From the linked paper. They mention some other options for storage like batteries (plenty of environmental issues there though) but based on the quoted text I have a hard time taking this seriously if they actually expect people to change their behavior.

      • schroedingershat@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Plug in car. Press the “I would like to only pay $100/yr to fuel this please” button.

        Later when you leave for work press the “I would like the house to be cool when I get home and also want to pay half as much for AC” button.

        Such an unconscionable burden.

      • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        I think innovation at the consumption end is going to help a lot. On Technology Connections I saw an electric induction stove that could be powered from a regular socket. It had a battery that would trickle charge throughout the day and then use the batteries to power the induction cooktops, as well as a couple of plugs. If widely deployed and in other appliances, with a little smarts that could provide power leveling at the home level.

        Another solution would be adding some intelligence to water heaters. Have a temperature control valve on the output where you set the temperature, and program the water heater get to 160-180°F when electricity is cheap. This would be a thermal battery that would easily level out demand for electricity for heating water.

        Or you could do thermal storage by heating a house very warm/cold prior to a large cold snap/heat wave, and letting it coast down/up to a temperature instead of heating/cooling a lot during the cold/hot weather. He’s got a video on this technique here

        • schroedingershat@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Another solution would be adding some intelligence to water heaters. Have a temperature control valve on the output where you set the temperature, and program the water heater get to 160-180°F when electricity is cheap. This would be a thermal battery that would easily level out demand for electricity for heating water.

          This has been done for close to a century in wind or run of river hydro heavy countries (as well as some coal ones).

          The water heater has a buffer tank and is attached to a meter that only runs when a signal is sent across the power line. This stores about 20kWh for a 300L tank.

          Modern insulation would allow going up to a few m^3 for a couple weeks’ worth.

          • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Combine that with some radiant floor heating on a nice thick concrete slab and you could use the battery for home heating. (Though it would need a lot of water.)

      • Zorque@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        “Not enough power from renewables? Just turn off your fridge for a few days and you’ll be fine!”

        Honestly that sentiment has strong “blame the consumer” vibes that seems to pervade climate arguments.

        Sure, people can reduce consumption, but at best its a stopgap, not a solution.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          There’s stuff like heaters and to a degree things like washing machines that can shape the time they’re active to whenever there’s a lull.

          Consider Britain: Each time the BBC runs a popular show you get an energy usage spike once it’s over because people are getting up and make themselves a cuppa. Doesn’t really make sense to run the heater in the tank for your shower at the same time, or charge your car, that can wait a bit.

    • PeleSpirit@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      We have to start looking at personal renewables more? Each home could have their own small windmill or solar panel. Let’s point in that direction.

      • Zorque@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        What makes you think personal renewable are going to be more efficient than large scale renewables? The sun doesn’t magically shine in the middle of the night on personal homes, the wind doesn’t magically blow only in residential areas…

    • rusticus@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      The best solution is having EVs plugged into the grid at night. VTG is the easy solution to peaker needs.

    • alvvayson@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The renewables-only crowd is just ignorant about this simple fact.

      The future of energy will be dominated by solar and nuclear power. With hydro, geothermal and wind playing supporting roles, depending on geography.

      The only question is, how much fossil fuels do we burn until then?

      Those who oppose nuclear are really just in favour of burning fossil fuels in the interim. But the inevitable switch to nuclear will come as fossil fuels are depleted.

      Nature has given us the atom as the most dense and durable way to store energy. That will never change.

      • schroedingershat@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Typical energy density of ore in a new uranium mine burned in an LWR is about the same of coal.

        All of the economic/not too damaging stuff together would power the world for about 3 years.

      • BombOmOm@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Sometimes, a kinetic response is the only reasonable reaction. ;p Asking nicely doesn’t stop a Russian war of conquest.

    • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Nuclear is a terrible fit for peaker plants, that’s not how it works. If it isn’t selling energy at as close to 100% of the time as is feasible it’s losing money.

    • 0xD21F@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is an old and proven method for load balancing intermittent power sources. Would like to see more of that as geography permits.

    • roguetrick@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Nuclear is not, and cannot be, a gap coverage solution. Due to xenon/iodine poisoning and decay heat management you need to keep a reactor critical as long as possible to be economical. That’s independent of the problem of keeping the water hot that fossil fuel generators share. You can’t just turn a reactor on and off.

      • WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        It can provide a baseload though where solar can provide extra power during the heat for places where the summer and days are the power intensive part, rather than winter and nights. You still need a short-term stop gap as the sun sets but it’s still hot out, but even if that was just powered by NG it would be a huge step forward. Adding greener energy storage options to store extra power nuclear or wind could generate overnight would be better.

        Btw, could a small percent of nuclear reactors be turned on/off seasonally, potentially transporting fuel between the north in the winter and the south in the summer?

        • roguetrick@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Yes, but if you spend the money making a reactor, you really should just use it. Uranium is pretty cheap, it’s the reactor that’s expensive.

          • WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Fair. If a grid was just powered by batteries, solar, wind, and existing nuclear plants, which would be the most effective to turn off when demand is too low?

      • BombOmOm@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Keep the reactors running to avoid that issue. As long as they are providing enough power when the renewables aren’t, we successfully cut out natural gas from the power grid.

      • a_statistician@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        Columbia station load follows within a certain range set by nearby hydro. It can be done. The economics aren’t even that bad, as fuel is one of the cheaper inputs to the reactor.