The image only works if the right always wins though?
The “lesser evil” won in 2020. We didn’t move back to the left.
Are there more examples of this happening? One event isn’t a very good sample size… “IT DIDN’T WORK GUYS, SEE?!”, I mean, sure… But there are more circumstances and variables and conditions to an election lol.
How many times do you want to move to the right and not back to the left? How many more times will it take to satisfy you?
I mean, as long as it’s a stable ratio, the whole concept in this post falls apart. What are the statistics on left/right leaning presidents throughout history?
Does the rightward shift that has resulted in the “good” party supporting genocide indicate stability to you?
It does not, but this happening for one election doesn’t prove an unstable ratio, or rate of change. You have to look at the historical pattern for that.
I don’t think this is the problem of some sort of “phenomenon” of a left party becoming the right party because people are voting for the “lesser evil”. That makes no sense to begin with. If everyone voted for the lesser evil (the left), the lesser evil would not feel the need to take on some evil from the right to please the American people who are voting with their rectums, dropping straight up doo-doo in their ballot boxes. They would be able to just have sane politics. No? Otherwise, why are they doing some evil? And why is the right doing a shit-ton of evil? It’s because they are playing the American people for fools. Exploiting their culture of “protect our land of the fReE” and their “black or white” argumentation and “we vs them”, “good versus evil”, “no gray areas” small brain mentality.
For one election?
Which of GWB’s rightward policies did Obama undo? Which of Reagan/Bush’s policies did Clinton undo?
You’re defending a rightward shift that has been going on for decades.
Pray tell, how is strengthening unions & workers rights, forgiving student loans, not ‘left’? SMH
Pray tell, how is genocidal fascism “left”? SMH
Are you chronically hard of thinking? The US approach to Israel isn’t a Democrat thing, and the Biden administration did more to restrict sales than most. But keep banging that drum mate
Genocide apologist
Ok I’ll try this again without calling you a c***: saying that X is is not responsible fo Y does not mean that you think that Y is good. In this case, nearly everyone in the US govt (regardless of party affiliation) has supported arms sales to Israel for as long as they’ve held the position. The fact that you think me pointing this out is equivalent to excusing or approving it surprises me, but then many single-issue individuals can get irrationally passionate on those issues, so I shouldn’t have been as surprised as I was I suppose.
Boring cunt
and the Biden administration did more to restrict sales than most
Oh? Provide examples.
Pray tell, how is strengthening unions & workers rights
Strikebreaking and photo ops didn’t strengthen shit.
forgiving student loans
Was the only bright spot in his presidency.
Now how was supporting a genocide “left?” I mean, it may be to your left. Maybe you want active participation?
No?
Then please explain how this works. This image isn’t doing it for me.
If the republicans win, it goes further right. If the democrats win, it stays where it is. So the only movement is to the right, never left.
That simply explains what’s visible in the image, not whatsoever why.
If the democrats win, it stays where it is.
Like, why is this the general assumption?
If this were true, there wouldn’t ever have been a democratic president, right? Except maybe once in the beginning?
What?
😐… where exactly did I lose you? Just asking “What?” doesn’t really help me to answer you. What is your actual question, please?
I think you’re taking this a bit more seriously than it’s intended to be, but yeah, there have been Democrat presidents, but there still isn’t gun control, univseral healthcare (not even for children!), etc.
Incidentally that’s also the effect of not voting for the lesser evil, you can just cut out the two steps in the middle then.
So if you don’t vote for the lesser evil it gets salty and joins the evil? Yeah i am not voting for that psycho manipulating abusive shit.
So if you don’t vote for the lesser evil it gets salty and joins the evil?
Not quite. If you don’t vote for the lesser evil, it loses influence, which means the greater evil has it easier to shift things over in their direction and control the narrative. They’ve won after all, so clearly that’s what the voters want. The lesser evil will take cues from this.
(It should also be said that this whole meme only really applies to shitty 2-party systems. In a proper parliamentary democracy, you have more realististic choices than “greater evil” and “lesser evil” and don’t have to play this stupid game at all.)
The same shit happens in systems with more than two parties. You also have the problem to think about rallying behind the main party on the left or right side vs. one that is closer to your ideals but probably wont become part of the government coalition. In Germany, where i am from, we had 12 out of 16 years under Merkel with a “big coalition” of the conservative CDU and the social democrat SPD. All that happened was the SPD moving more and more to the right. Now we had a coalition that was supposedly progressive but collapsed hard as well as the Green party and liberal party FDP also moving strongly to the right. We now in 2024 have policies among the supposed center/center-left that used to be fringe far right by German standards. This is why voting “tactically” or for “the lesser evil” fails. It gives a false sense of what is demanded by the people.
Also for the narrative control just take the win of Biden in 2020 as a counter example. Despite Trump holding office the Dems managed to win.
I’m also from Germany and I don’t think it’s a similar situation at all. In our system, it’s absolutely possible and doable for a new party to arise and gain influence. You don’t have to vote for the lesser evil, you can find a party that actually suits you and there is a realistic shot of getting it elected if enough people want it to happen. We’ve gotten 2 new parties in parliament over the last decade (I don’t like either of them, but that’s beside the point). And yes, we have a general shift to the right in Germany as well, but that’s more due to the actual attitudes of the population, a generally weak left and things like Russian influence. Contrary to the US, voters can absolutely reverse that trend though.
In a system like the US, that’s almost impossible. Let’s say the democrats split up into left-wing democrats and right-wing democrats. Half of the voter base goes to either party, so 25% of the population votes for each. However, elections are “first past the post”, so even if the left gained a lot of voters and reached, say, 35%, it will be a total victory for the Republican party. Any party that can’t get an absolute majority of votes is powerless. The momentum for a new party to get to power would have to be insane.
Also for the narrative control just take the win of Biden in 2020 as a counter example. Despite Trump holding office the Dems managed to win.
Well, yes, but pretty much exclusively by running on a lesser evil “We’re not Trump” platform. Had the Trump presidency never happened, it could have been way more about actual policy.
The two party System is more a consequence of first past the post than the system they are voted into.
If you look at Canada as an example in the last 30 years the parties on the right have amalgamated and have been rewarded for it as the vote splitting on the left is what gets them elected. It’s just a matter of time until the left follow suit and then 🎉 two party system.
Yeah, I agree. FPTP is a horrible system that will inevitably lead to this kind of situation.
Then they don’t need to worry about your vote and are stuck competing for the remaining voters
Well, they would get my vote if they changed their policies and behaviour. If you vote them no matter what they dont have to fight for it. (Note i am not a US citizen but the same principles apply. I have similar dissapointment with the formerly progressive parties in my country moving to the right)
And we can also observe this empirically with the current election. The Dems were so tone deaf that they thought to compete over Reps not too happy with Trump, fielding people like Dick fucking Cheney as their advocates. Meanwhile they lost a lot of votes they expected to just have secure because they expected the voters to be blindly loyal hence irrelevant to their strategy.
Ah yes, so the best option is to not vote and let them succeed unimpeded.
I’m all for voting for a better candidate, but we have a broken 2 party system, and it very much is if you don’t vote for one of the two main parties, you are pretty much just not voting at all.
I don’t vote for this person. I’m voting against that person.
Ah yes, so the best option is to not vote and let them succeed unimpeded.
Your very first lines are a false dichotomy.
Ah yes, so the best option is to not vote and let them succeed unimpeded.
The best option is to scream at anyone who isn’t fucking delighted that your side of the party has moved so far to the right that they’re supporting genocide.
No one can gripe about your shit wing of the party.
Dems have been nothing but a doormat for the last 30 years, the party of complicity. I’m absolutely positive they’ve been playing the dupe and moving the US further to the right all the while playing the victim.
Could have fixed the electoral college but didn’t. Could have codified abortion into the constitution but didn’t. Could have filled RBGs supreme court seat without Senate confirmation regardless of the pearl clutching, but didn’t. Could have put pressure on the justice department to get their investigation done with to get the trial for Trump for treason at least started…but fuck me, they didn’t… seriously- they couldn’t put a case together in 3 years???
Could have, should have, would have. Fucking useless.
I agree, but also stand by my point. In a horrible 2 party system, they’re simply “not conservative”, and so I’m forced to vote for them. That being said, Bernie should have won.
Bernie got railroaded.
They are conservative though.
In my country we stopped voting the socdem party, because they betrayed the workers. From one election to the next they lost like half the votes.
For 4 years the conservative party ruled. But after that the socdem change their politics we voted them again and had had a fairly leftist government for the last year.
They are slacking again so I plan not to vote next election, hoping thar more people get the memo, they sink again in votes and sit to think on why people felt betrayed, and change for the better.
4 years of conservative party were worthy giving that after the socdems turned left again we conquer a lot of things that we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise if we would have keep on voting their moderate centrist version.
In the US the ruling party fills lifetime judicial appointments, which means the 4 years of conservative rule can have decades of lasting impact that will thwart any progressive policies that the next leftish government tries to implement.
You can get around the courts. FDR did.
Then they better fucking learn quick, huh?
do you mean of not voting for them?
people don’t vote, democrats lose, they think it’s because they’re too far left and move further to the right. meanwhile republican victories embolden them to push even harder into fascism
I’m not an American but I would argue that Biden’s resignation was in part due to people threatening to not vote. This wasn’t a move to the left but organized threats of not voting can make a difference.
Personally, I would vote for the lesser evil unless there was some kind of organized movement. Where I live, we have more than 2 evils to choose from and I choose the smallest of them.
Biden was incapable of clearly communicating verbally for 2 hours straight in a debate. I’d argue that Biden stayed in as long as he did to enable them to feel empowered to force another Kamala on us rather than having to deal with a Warren, Sanders or even a Buttigieg winning the Primary. Kamala was 6th in line in the Primary when she dropped out in 2020.
Good point
people don’t vote, democrats lose, they think it’s because they’re too far left and move further to the right.
People vote, Democrats win, they think it’s because they moved to the right and so they move further to the right. The sun comes up in the morning and they move further to the right.
I vote for them, they move right. I don’t vote for them, and vote third party, they move right. I join their party and vote in their primary’s for progressive candidates, they move right.
It’s almost like a bunch of really old, well off, lifetime establishment government folks just actually want to be conservative authoritarians. At BEST they are stuck in a mindset of 1969’s ideas of what progressive politics are because that is when they became politicians.
They’ve obviously lost the thread and who could blame them? They’ve been locked up with conservatives for 50+ years. That would be enough to have me blow my brains out.
The point is the whole DNC is a rotten corpse. Maybe at one time the candidates had an ideology but now they’ve fought every fight they’re willing to fight and just want to be old and not bothered. Except they don’t want to give up their power. Which is frightening. From their perspective they’ve only made it this far by clenching tight to power for as long as they could and can’t imagine a world where they just live at harmony with people around them. They lose all their clout. No one needs them anymore and they rot to nothing. That’s the fear at least.
Everyday I’m more convinced the thing that got us where we are is American hyper competitive mentality. We have to work endlessly. We have to score the best grades. We have to make the most money.
Why can’t we just take pride in living peacefully. This is what all the Trumpers are upset about, honestly. They want to be able to live in their podunk town. Doing their unimportant job. Liking the same things their mommy and daddy liked and be unbothered. Culturally that’s fucked and we’ve seen why but idealistically it’s fine. We need unimportant people to do unimportant things and be more or less just like the ones who came before. So why not reward it?
I’m rambling.
OK, what else do you suggest? Not voting? That just speeds the process up. Voting for the small but much better option? In a FPTP voting system (like the American one that I assume you’re talking about), the spoiler effect means that’s as good as not voting.
This is my issue with the leftist community in general, and especially the ml group. Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.
I think you’re missing several things. First, if the phenomenon is accurate, and it is, then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems. Recognize your problems, and then work to solve them directly.
Second, the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state. But how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump, when in fact their state was nowhere close to 50/50 so realistically they could have voted for anyone?
Third, there is no single leftist community. There are many different leftist communities that overlap and agree on various points. Also, you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth. We all recognize the current situation, and we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not. In other words, your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable, it sucks but there’s nothing you can do, and that’s certainly true if you believe it.
then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems
Sorry, but how the fuck did you get to that opinion? Sharing knowledge and ideas is how humanity thrives, but unless I’m misunderstanding you you’re saying that we should each individually find a solution to the problem we are all in together.
the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state
The spoiler effect will always exist to some extent in any FPTP system. Sure, it won’t make nearly as much difference in a one sided state as it will in a swing state, but the effect still exists, and makes it much harder for a better party to gain traction while not losing a lot of ground in the mean time.
how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump
The people that didn’t believe this and so didn’t vote are probably the reason that Trump won the popular vote, and that the republicans have a majority in the senate and the house.
you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth
Acting like “voting for the lesser evil is evil and therefore unacceptable” seems pretty idealist to me. I’m well aware that most people here are aware of how shit the world is, and are doing their part to improve it, which is something I appreciate and want to support. It’s just that from what I can tell, the recent US election was the wrong place for idealism.
we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not
Sorry, mate, but don’t assume. I’m not american, I’m kiwi. And since we don’t have a completely shit voting system, I always vote as a huge idealist and never vote for one of the big two, because in MMP that’s not a wasted vote.
your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable
No. I’ve just accepted that, at least for this cycle of US elections, the better approach would be playing defensive. It’s not that the current reality is unchangeable, it’s that positive change will be very slow.
As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he’s describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.
Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with.
I don’t think you got the main point of the video. Not only “large” change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.
So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?
If so, that seems not currently feasible.
Maybe you should watch it, then you don’t have to ask such an ignorant question.
Sounds like you aren’t clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?
I’m quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.
He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or “teleporting”.
As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control.
Was supporting genocide “damage control?”
Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.
Was supporting genocide “damage control?”
Here’s the question I asked.
That’s the question I answered.
Which would you rather support?
- Genocide
- Genocide + fascism + other bad shit (probably including genocide 2)
Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.
The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control
When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is “how can we bring about the end of this government?”, not “how can I maintain the good times for me personally?”. But Democrats are callous psychopaths.
Also, it’s already fascism you ghoul.
Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not “damage control” even though you love him for it.
OK, what else do you suggest?
Not many ask.
Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.
This is my issue with almost everyone. They believe they already know what others think, that no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered.
My suggestions are as follows: Consider that your scope of evaluation is only one cycle. As a consequence there may be nuance in system function that you’d not considered. Then ask the same question but in good faith.
Do you simply have no answer, or are you withholding them so you can feel smug?
Do you simply have no answer, or are you withholding them so you can feel smug?
false dichotomy
not many ask
Yes, they do ask a lot, at least a far as I’ve seen. I still haven’t seen a good alternative to voting for the lesser evil in a FPTP system.
They believe they already know what others think
My opinion on that was based on the whole “don’t vote for Harris, she’ll support genocide” thing I saw earlier this year. If I’m wrong about that, or anything else, I’m more than happy to be corrected.
no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered
Most people don’t think that no one could have a good alternative, they just don’t know of anyone who does.
your scope of evaluation is only one cycle
You’re assuming that’s my only scope. Both the short term and the long term are important, but from what I’ve seen the short term tends to get ignored in this sort of community.
bad citizen. Bad!
OK, what else do you suggest?
I suggest that the party take the fucking hint and move to the left. But that’s not an option you will consider.
That’s absolutely an option I would consider, but it’s not an option that 99% of people can actually act on.
Well, shouting at the electorate to shut up and love genocide because it’s the “lesser” evil didn’t work.
Honestly I’m just at the point where I’m sitting back watching this country be torn apart. Everything anyone ever has done is wrong but also maybe it’s right and everyone acts like they know which is which. The country is entirely divided when the war within itself kicks off I’ll be just on my porch watching because I’m done trying to make heads or tails of this mess.
You know what they say, evil happens when good people stand back and let it happen.
Quote from Eddy Burke, Edmund’s less fancy-worded relative.
I’m not privileged, they just won’t attack me or my family yet. /s
With no scale this is absolutely meaningless
lol, get this nerd. It’s not meant to be a scientific graph like a Moody diagram for calculating things from, it’s illustrating a concept which it does perfectly.
Ok. So apply this to 2016. The left choice was establishment neoliberal who if had won would have put left leaning judges on the Supreme Court ensuring the court for decades. Since she lost a far right extremist won who captured the judicial branch. I guess this doesn’t count because people didn’t vote for the lesser evil. Or does it?
So the following election again was establishment neoliberalism who won and basically had the most progressive policy’s of the last century. I guess that moved us right?
Next election, let’s see, establishment neoliberal again. Hard to pinpoint if she was more left or less left because she ran a campaign catering to “on the fence conservatives” but was part of a very progressive administration.
Maybe this what happens when you don’t vote for the lesser evil. That’s all I see.
“Joe Biden has the most progressive policies of the last decade” - incredible.
I can think of zero politicians with a further left policy platform than Joe Biden. Think of all his progressive moves, like allowing the overturn of roe vs wade, Joe Biden who railed against school racial integration policies, Joe Biden author of the 94 crime bill, Joe Biden who continued building the wall, pro union Joe Biden who compelled the train unions to accept the companies deal. Joe Biden who lends his support both materially and in influence to right wing governments in Ukraine and Israel, supporting genocide in the latter. Etc etc. A real hero of the people this guy, fly out the red flag.
like allowing the overturn of roe vs wade
Voters did this by not voting lesser evil
Joe Biden who railed against school racial integration policies, Joe Biden author of the 94 crime bill,
This was not part of his presidential administration and not my claim.
pro union Joe Biden who compelled the train unions to accept the companies deal
And went back and got sick days for the union after the deal was signed. Only president to march with the union.
Biden who lends his support both materially and in influence to right wing governments in Ukraine and Israel, supporting genocide in the latter. Etc etc. A real hero of the people this guy, fly out the red flag.
I never made the claim he wasn’t a neoliberal. I only cited the fact that he was the most progressive president we’ve seen in the country for as long as I’ve been alive.
More like the Overton Window at work actually.
Biden will likely end up as one of the top 5 most progressive presidents ever. Society expects more from Democrats than they would’ve previously. There’s nothing wrong w/ that, but the argument being presented seems misguided and like both sides nihilism.
Biden will likely end up as one of the top 5 most progressive presidents ever.
Biden will be remembered as the president with dementia who butchered Gaza.
That’s unfair, he’ll also be remembered for supporting segregation
That’s unfair, he’ll also be remembered for supporting the electoral college
that’s unfair, he’ll also be remembered for keeping ICE camps from trump.
exactly. i thought Biden was the shit until Gaza. now, I dont even care about him at all. he’s just another politician.
Biden will likely end up as one of the top 5 most progressive presidents ever.
He’s not even in the top 5 now.
Things move to the right when the right wins. Things move to the left when the left wins. If the center wins, then things don’t move much at all. The lesser evil prevents greater evil
In other words, “B-but…”
Meanwhile, Trump takes office <again> in 2 months. Keep polishing that halo tho!
It’s incredible that libs still haven’t figured out that vote shaming doesn’t work. Instead of doing some reflection on why Trump won, there’s just more of the same moralizing happening.
Remember, Trump is so supernaturally evil that everyone has to drop their principles and vote for the blue coloured genocidal fascists, but not so evil that Democrats should have to actually make any effort to win the election.
Exactly, any atrocities that the democrats commit can be absolved by not voting for Trump. It really is a cult isn’t it.
Honestly, Blue MAGA has deified Trump more than red MAGA, they just see him as an evil god rather than benevolent.
Pretty much yeah, he’s the devil of their religion.
I’m beginning to think vote shaming is integral to their worldview.
Us commies weren’t always “far” left.
Funny that a lot of people see this shit and immediately go but Dem and Rep, this shit applied for a lot of countries that have more than 2 parties. When the more popular parties are all shit people go with “lesser evil”.
Let’s see your tune in 4 years lmao all you fuckwits who stayed home did was force everyone to live under the authoritarians right now. You sacrificed marginalized groups because of a complete lack of perspective and selfish bullshit.
You have four years every year to push for candidates you like. Local and state offices. So many opportunities to volunteer and donate. Then you all show up having done NOTHING during that time, strolling up in the general election endlessly bitch and moaning. I’m so fucking sick of it.
Change takes work and time. Sitting around whining online doing nothing for 3.5 years then showing up in the general is not putting in the work. It’s being entitled brats.
We’ve been living in an authoritarian right wing country for 25-50 years. Historically the tactic of “we must sacrifice [insert marginalized group here] or it’ll get worse for us all!!!” has been very effective.
I find it very hopeful that this was the year that people were finally very vocally opposed that tactic and think it’s a good sign going forward that things might actually get better. However, that is reliant on people like you waking up to the fact that no amount of time and effort put into reinforcing the sacrificial machine will ever change its fundamental nature and that what you view as “being entitled brats” is often simply refusing to participate in the death, enslavement and marginalization of others.
Is active resistance better? Yes! But token resistance while actively reinforcing the authoritarian right is worse than nothing. The vast majority of those “opportunities to volunteer and donate” are doing just that; a $5 donation to “lesser evil INC.” is still actively funding evil.
Your frustration and anxiety for the future is perfectly valid, and I appreciate that you are at least a little mad about the state of things. But I would ask that you step back, reevaluate, and redirect that rage and start punching up instead of looking for who to punch down at.
Trump is not the person to learn this lesson with. Romney, McCain, all of those would’ve been fine. Trump is an incredibly unique threat.
Yeah, the longer it takes the worse it gets. That’s one of the points the parent meme is getting across. But that response tells me you missed what I was saying.
Reread and try again.
Don’t patronize me asshole
Not the intention. How would you prefer I had responded?
Not sure this makes sense. I think the window shifts right as people continue to vote right.
From the Wikipedia article about the Overton window:
The most common misconception is that lawmakers themselves are in the business of shifting the Overton window. That is absolutely false. Lawmakers are actually in the business of detecting where the window is, and then moving to be in accordance with it.
This is true, but it’s also STILL WORSE to vote for the greater evil. You need to change the options available to you to fix this.
It’s also true that you get backlashes normally if the system doesn’t get to far out of wack. FDR wasnt right of Hoover Coolridge and Harding. Sure one can argue overall we were shifting to the right… But we were NEVER going to be left of center so long as the U.S. existed, because the constitution is built on capitalism. Capitalism has a slow decay, can it be fixed? Maybe. Is it fixable now, maybe not. Could we have fixed it if we followed Carter with a closer to center President instead of Reagan, A LOT easier to have done it then… It took 60 years to get taxes on the rich to this point.
I don’t think the constitution is very capitalist tbh
