• CircaV@lemmy.ca
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    2 hours ago

    Luckily the US is dismantling the CIA so that’s good news for communism!!!

  • missandry351@lemmings.world
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    3 hours ago

    When people ask me what communist country was successful I usually say all of them until cia decided to go there and spread freedom 🇺🇸🦅

    • Tuukka R@sopuli.xyz
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      36 minutes ago

      Well… There was this thing called Soviet Union. They decided to try to speed up the transition to communism by using repression and violence. And ended up being a totalitarian state, a direct opposite of what a communist state is supposed to be like.

      Of course you can argue that Soviet Union was not communist, it was just a state that had chosen to call itself communist for propaganda reasons… But still, Soviet Union is an example of a communist country that was unsuccessful as a communist project already by itself. Then came outsiders and helped make it even worse, but bad doesn’t become good by some people wanting it to be even worse. Burma is another example. I’d say they hacked away their own leg before anyone else, such as CIA, had time to interfere in their business.

  • vfreire85@lemmy.ml
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    4 hours ago

    you know, i tell you what. i’m fed up with all this gringo self-righteousness when you talk about “oh communism was bad, oh people where killed, oh people had no food, oh people had no liberty, oh people could not buy ataris, oh our countries are so democratic”. your countries were democratic during the cold war in the first place because you had people to sort things out for you here in the global south. for each person complaining about how the food rations in eastern europe were not tasty enough, there were 10 dying of hunger or malnourishment here in the global south. for every person complaining they had to wait 5 years in a queue to buy a trabant or an oka, there were 10 who got no school in a range of 50 km. for every person complaining that their 8 hour shifts in state owned factories were overwhelming, there were 10 who were indentured workers. for every person complaining about how the stasi, kgb or the stb had bugged their apartment, there were 10 suffering the most horrific tortures inside black sites of the military of u.s. allies here in the “third world”. for every person complaining about dull standard apartment blocks in mikrorayons, there were 10 who lived in mud shacks and slums, and those are just who were lucky enough to have a roof over their heads. finally, for everyone complaining about chinese sweatshops, which are indeed a problem, there are 10 americans who work and yet cannot afford proper housing.

    you wanna complain about how communism was bad? go ahead. you wanna complain how your parents lived under communism and could not drink coke? do so if you wish. but there are still millions of people down here who would give an arm and a leg to have a polish ration, an apartment in a russian gray building, or a yugoslav job. and while the chinese maoist red guard was bad, surely it won’t be an inch closer to the harassement people endured on a daily basis by our police forces.

    again: you wanna complain? be my guest. but for me that’s an encyclopedic example of white privilege.

    • galanthus@lemmy.world
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      3 hours ago

      Why would you not compare european communist countries woth european capitalist countries? Sure, africans and asians were poorer, but that goes without saying, honestly, what does that even have to do with this matter?

      East Germany was poorer than west Germany. That tells us something. The fact that Ethiopia or whatever was poorer does not really tell us much about ehich economic system is better.

      • missandry351@lemmings.world
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        3 hours ago

        Loool it’s easy to say East Germany was poorer when they had to deal with all the sanctions. But be my guest, how many homeless people in USA and how many in Cuba?

        • galanthus@lemmy.world
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          2 hours ago

          If only there was a superpower leading a blok of nations rivaling the west that could have supported east Germany…

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 hours ago

            Hard to do so in the aftermath of World War II when the Nazis destroyed half your buildings and murdered 20 million of your people. The Soviets did 80% of the combat against the Nazis.

            • galanthus@lemmy.world
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              1 hour ago

              So you claim the USSR did not support East Germany because of anti-german sentiments, while the west invested quite a lot into the reconstruction of FRG. I am afraid I am not qualified to assess how accurate that claim is(the former half of it, specifically). But I am deeply skeptical about this, since it would be quite a useful propaganda tool both domestically and in the west. Also, the east had a communist government and it distanced itself from it’s past. The internationalist ideology of the USSR should have triumphed over the nationalist sentiments that might have existed.

              However, I should say, that the main point of my original comment still stands. Of course, there are always many factors at play and it is not the case that the disparity between the east and the west can be attributed to the economic system alone. However, this does not mean that such comparisons are not valid, and I still would say that comparing european countries to underdeveloped countries to say that life in eastern Europe “wasn’t that bad” is quite absurd.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                1 hour ago

                I didn’t say the USSR didn’t support East Germany, I explained the unique struggles East Germany faced compared to West Germany.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        3 hours ago

        West Germany had almost all of the industry of Germany, and East Germany was made to pay harsh reparations for the immense devastation the Nazis wrought upon the Soviet people and countries. Moreover, West Germany was never de-Nazified, and the US and Western Countries heavily invested into its development as a means to destabilize the relations with the East, even threatening to put NATO nukes in West Germany.

  • Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world
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    5 hours ago

    Any one party political system can either fail or be maintained through violent oppression. People need to have a say in who represents them and what their values are.

    A more sustainable solution than soviet style communism is to have proportional representation and work on instilling socialist virtues such as kindness, social responsibility, and fairness in the population. over time, the people in government will start to reflect those values.

  • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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    5 hours ago

    I wonder if anyone ever said “Democracy would never work, just look at what happened to Athens”.

    Socialism and communism are relatively new ideas. While I don’t believe communism is an effective form of government, it’s still kind of silly to write it off so quickly.

  • HighFructoseLowStand@lemm.ee
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    5 hours ago

    This is a good example of one of things people hate about lemmy.

    Communism fan boying, implicit denial of genocides committed by communist powers, out in the open on the front page.

    • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      5 hours ago

      This is a good example of one of things people hate about lemmy.

      Okay. You know where the exit is.

      Communism fan boying, implicit denial of genocides committed by communist powers, out in the open on the front page.

      What communist “genocides”? This one? Or this one[1][2]? Or this one?

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      5 hours ago

      You’re going to find Communists on a website made by Communists. Don’t know what you mean by “genocide denial,” but in another comment you were unironically recommending the Black Book of Communism’s chief writer as a legitimate source, you’re doing the “Communism killed 100 million” meme.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          4 hours ago

          Uyghur’s aren’t being systematically murdered at scale. There are reeducation camps, but to call it “genocide” isn’t accurate. You should read the UN report.

          As for the idea of an “intentional famine,” this is disputed at best. In reality, there was a famine in the 1930s that didn’t have any racial motivations. Nobody denies the famine’s existence.

          So no, I’m not doing genocide denial, and I’m correct, you want to appear morally righteous regardless of the real facts.

  • umbrella@lemmy.ml
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    5 hours ago

    whoops, brazil. we had a budding workers movement that was absolutely crushed by the traitorous brazilian military, in the name of the US of course.

    that hasnt stopped syndicalism to take root here and improve our lives a bit, but the communist organizations responsible were all crushed and we see our rights being taken away ever since because no one is left to defend them. we are scrambling rn to see if we can stop fascism.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      7 hours ago

      It was complicated. Krushev, and later Gorbachev’s reforms really weakened the Socialist system because they didn’t properly retain strong control of the larger firms and heavy industry (a lesson the CPC took to heart), however the CIA and really the US absolutely worked tirelessly to weaken it. The Soviets also had to spend a much larger portion of their production on the millitary in order to keep parity with the US, meaning that development rates began to slow.

      • ambidexterity@lemmy.world
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        2 hours ago

        Oh, so US is guilty in the collapse of USSR bc US were just that good that USSR need to overexert itself to keep parity with them.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          2 hours ago

          The US played a part, I outright stated that it was a complicated situation made more complicated by having the world’s largest Empire, the US, permanently hostile and putting nukes on their doorstep.

      • HighFructoseLowStand@lemm.ee
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        6 hours ago

        What is complicated about it?

        The reforms you refer to allowed for political dissent. If the Soviet Union was some worker’s paradise, then allowing people complain wouldn’t change anything.

        The simple reality is that the Soviet Union was a dictatorship that only survived as long as it did because it was a dictatorship. Once people had the option of opposing Communist rule, they did. And that is what killed the Soviet Union. Not some conspiracy by the United States or the kulaks.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          6 hours ago

          The reforms didn’t just allow for “political dissent,” they worked against the Socialist system, that was based on central planning. Rather than running in a more efficient manner, it ran against itself.

          Further, nobody says the Soviet Union was a “worker’s paradise.” It had tremendous strides for workers, but it wasn’t perfect by any means.

          The Soviet Union wasn’t a dictatorship. Read Soviet Democracy. It lasted as long as it did because it had tremendous GDP growth while lowering wealth disparity, free and high quality education and healthcare, doubled health expectancies, full employment, and over tripled literacy rates to 99.9%.

          Read Blackshirts and Reds.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              2 hours ago

              Bit of a non-sequitor, I could bring up Kent State and use that to say the US isn’t a democracy. The US has a far worse track record than the Soviets.

              • ambidexterity@lemmy.world
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                2 hours ago

                Soviets have civil war with 6 million losses in their track record lol. I’d like to see what USA has to compete with that.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 hours ago

                  Numerous mass killings and/or genocides in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Guatemala, East Timor, Cambodia, and much, much more.

          • Stalin:

            Do you really believe that we could have retained power and have had the backing of the vast masses for 14 years by methods of intimidation and terrorization? No, that is impossible. The tsarist government excelled all others in knowing how to intimidate. It had long and vast experience in that sphere. The European bourgeoisie, particularly the French, gave tsarism every assistance in this matter and taught it to terrorize the people. Yet, in spite of that experience and in spite of the help of the European bourgeoisie, the policy of intimidation led to the downfall of Tsarism.

          • Antiproton@programming.dev
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            6 hours ago

            The Soviet Union was, if not a traditional dictatorship, absolutely a totalitarian autocracy. Stalin was a brutal dictator and his successors were chosen by the communist party. Elections in the USSR were for show.

            Life was miserable almost from the start of the Bolshevik revolution for most people. The USSR’s implementation of communism was so bad, it’s become cliche.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 hours ago

              Allow me to repeat myself:

              The Soviet Union wasn’t a dictatorship. Read Soviet Democracy. It lasted as long as it did because it had tremendous GDP growth while lowering wealth disparity, free and high quality education and healthcare, doubled health expectancies, full employment, and over tripled literacy rates to 99.9%.

              Read Blackshirts and Reds.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 hours ago

                  Yep. Democracy doesn’t mean “choose between parties,” it’s about the actual impact you can have on policy. More people in China feel that they have a voice in politics than people in the US, despite the US having 2 parties.

            • vfreire85@lemmy.ml
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              5 hours ago

              “Life was miserable almost from the start of the Bolshevik revolution for most people”, said the romanovs.

          • HighFructoseLowStand@lemm.ee
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            6 hours ago

            That’s what dissent is.

            Nothing you said disputes it being a dictatorship. The people could not choose their leaders, there were no limits on the power of their leaders, er go it was a dictatorship. None of your “pros” matter. And that’s before we get into the lack of freedom of speech and press and total absence of transparency, meaning that I have no reason to trust those supposed accomplishments.

                • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  4 hours ago

                  Declassified CIA report:

                  Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of a team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the new captain.

                  A lot of the cold war propaganda about the USSR turned out to be bullshit, now that US & Soviet archives have been released, as contemporary Western academic historians will tell you, like Domenico Losurdo and Grover Furr.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              6 hours ago

              No, that isn’t what dissent is, it was a fundamental liberalization of the economy that favored private property over public.

              Secondly, they absolutely chose their leaders.

              Finally, you say life expectancy, literacy rates, and worker rights “don’t matter?” That strong, sustained economic growth doesn’t matter? You must be trolling.

              As for distrusting the sources, you can look into them yourselves, they are well-respected.

              • HighFructoseLowStand@lemm.ee
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                5 hours ago

                So, you’re denying that glasnost allowed for political dissent?

                Second, no they didn’t.

                Finally, it does not matter because we were debating whether or not the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, which the literacy rate has nothing to do with.

                Well-respected by Tankies, not by actual historians.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  5 hours ago

                  Glasnost allowed for liberalism to expand as an ideology, sure, alongside other reforms that weakened the economy and erased its foundations. You can’t cherry-pick the reforms to make it seem like the system worked poorly and only was dissolved because the “people had a choice.” In fact, most post-Soviet citizens regret the fall of Socialism and prefer it over Capitalism.

                  Read Soviet Democracy.

                  We were debating a great many things, one of which being the economy and the well-being of the people, because that helps explain why it was democratic.

                  Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan is quite literally used as a reference on the Wikipedia article for Soviet Democracy. You are incapable of being honest or looking at facts that disprove you because you care more about appearing morally righteous than being correct.

  • Michael@lemmy.ml
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    7 hours ago

    What if the answer to all of our worldwide problems is finding a balance between decentralized and centralized structures, balancing technology and the environment, finding a balance between currency and a moneyless society, and achieving balance between authority and liberty (with the goal of individual and societal sovereignty), and so forth?

    In this thread, I see Anarcho-Communists (or final stage Communists/ideological purists) taking bat at Marxist-Leninists (who espouse mostly outdated theory, but not always) and Liberals who fail to understand really any ideology that differs from their own because of how thick the propaganda is (and who espouse ideals like Democratic Socialism while failing to realize that their social support is still enabled by modern slavery - such as the exploitation of third world countries).

    I think a direct democracy, with authoritative and libertarian elements (such as enforcing liberty/a universal bill of rights for individuals) would be ideal.

    It could have an economic system with built-in social supports (each according to their need) that emulates cash and all the best parts of blockchain (that isn’t hoardable or worth hoarding, that also doesn’t enable slavery/other forms of parasitism, and is generally private at the transactional stage - yet is auditable at a larger-scale), with centralized control of natural resources that still respects decentralized development and balance with the environment. And also does not have debt or parasitism of any form, instead encouraging diplomacy - such as contracts/agreements taking the place of debt to better the planet and encourage societal responsibility and stewardship (e.g. contracts that result in the stabilization of the society incurring the would-be debt).

    Instead of total anarchy or various forms of authoritative control/dictatorship, we could simply combine direct democracy and hierarchy by electing leaders based solely on merit in the areas that are most needed, with strong controls so we get the best out of leadership and hierarchy and the resultant clarity and direction, without letting leaders and other experts become drunk on power. While also preventing the corruption of the individuals in power and the various forms of stagnation that result from entrenched power not conceding to new developments or advances.

    I know I’m an idealist, but I’d like everybody to turn the chapter and realize that we are in 2025, not the 1900s. Technology and science have advanced every area of our society. We are so beyond scarcity that we are producing well beyond our needs with conditions and methods that are not even close to ideal (with ideal and emergent solutions and methods ready to take the place of those unsustainable methods).

    We also have a global communication network - we can understand foreign languages without any human intervention in some cases, we can bridge cultural gaps, we can seek understanding and truth with our fingertips, and also we can push past the propaganda we are served on a platter, etc.

    We can achieve something better than anything that has ever been conceived of previously, and it starts by crumpling up all of the things that no longer serve us. Concepts like racism, nationalism, really all of the isms that promote superiority over others. Bridging gaps, joining hands, while also countering disinformation (not misunderstanding) and bad faith.

    We truly are not facing the same limitations that we did in the 1900s, although we may be facing new challenges like the rise of AI and the misuse of it by those currently in power.

    There really is no more room in society for mucking about and fighting others while everything is in such disrepair, with so much needless suffering happening.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      7 hours ago

      I just think it’s funny when you call ML’s outdated despite not really disagreeing with them, and then calling Anarchists “final stage Communists” when Anarchists want decentralization and “final stage Communism” is fully centralized. It more reads that you haven’t actually engaged with theory, especially considering the PRC is Marxist-Leninist and is outpacing everyone else at the moment.

      • Michael@lemmy.ml
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        7 hours ago

        You can think it’s funny all you like. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but you misunderstood my grammar. I was detailing two distinct types of people, with different views. The latter (after the or) are more on the side of purity testing other Communists because they see what would unfold after many, many years of Communism as de-facto Communism and proof that others are not true Communists (hence the slash ideological purists).

  • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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    9 hours ago

    Communism only works on a small scale. The second society gets bigger, you require a state with militaristic presence to keep the people in line. To this very day, the Marxist ideal of a “dictatorship of the proletariat” has ALWAYS resulted in centralized power structures that became brutal dictatorships.

    No matter which country you pick, large ones like china or the soviet union or smaller ones like cambodia under pol pot or vietnam under the CPV, all of them have devolved into a dictatorship. Even “experiments” like yugoslavia under tito were, in the end, still dictatorships where political opposition was disallowed, a secret police was founded and tito still had absolute control. Now, you might say: “But the people lived well!”, yes, for about 10 years until the 1960s where the country suffered a massive economic crash, insane debt (because commies suck at economics) and inflation. Tito was able to hold it together with sheer force until he died, and after his death, yugoslavia completely unraveled into the mess it is today.

    I know you like to cope with “oh no the evil CIA again >:(” but in the end, communism is a failed ideology that will never work on a large scale without completely suppressing individual freedom and brutally knocking down any sign of dissent.

    Edit: By the way, I’m more than willing to argue about this - however, I just noticed that I’m on lemmy.ml so I’ll most likely get banned for not conforming to the tankie-ideals.

    • Independently of who I side with, I am blocking this community because of the stifling of Realitaetsverlust’s comments. Mods here are worse at free speech and open discussion than all the Reddits, Xs, Facebooks, etc.

      I look at the mod history to find what Realitaetsverlust had saId and it isn’t like nasty ad hominem stuff; it is thoughtful conversation about complex topics. Removed because disagree? Nah. Bad mods are bad.

      Moving on. Peace

    • ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world
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      5 hours ago

      Capitalism only works on a small scale. The second society gets bigger, you require a state with militaristic presence to keep corporations in line. To this very day, the Thatcher/Reagan ideal of “market liberalisation and privatisation” has ALWAYS resulted in the centralised accumulation of capital that became a massive societal divider.

      No matter which country you pick, large ones like the USA or Russia, all of them have developed into a divided oligarchy of “haves” and “have nots”. […]

      I know you like to cope with “Oh no, the evil minority of bad apples in the owner class again. >:(” but in the end capitalism is a failed ideology that will never work on a large scale without completely surpressing the market and brutally regulating any sign of market dominance of a few corporations.

      Edit: typo.

      • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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        5 hours ago

        It’s very frustrating to me to see people say things like “socialism/communism always ends in a dictatorship” while ignoring that capitalism tends towards oligarchies and monopolies. I’m glad to see someone else pointing out that “capitalism only works on a small scale.”

      • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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        5 hours ago

        Capitalism only works on a small scale. The second society gets bigger, you require a state with militaristic presence to keep corporations in line.

        Wrong. Half of europe relied so much on american protection that they had barely any military spending. Germany at the forefront, we only have ammunition for like 2 days of combat. So ye, that’s nonsense.

        No matter which country you pick, large ones like the USA or Russia, all of them have developed into a divided oligarchy of “haves” and “have nots”. […]

        The US has been democratic for a major part of their existence. There were up and downs, sure, but it was largely a democratic system. So have many other big capitalistic countries by the way.

        Russia, while being capitalist, is an authoritarian system - I’m pretty sure that would’ve also happened if they were communist. But the oil money they got from the west probably tasted too good.

        but in the end capitalism is a failed ideology that will never work on a large scale without completely surpressing the market and brutally regulating any sign of market dominance of a few corporations.

        Uuuuh, did you use AI to write this? Because it makes no sense. Personally, I wouldn’t mind some regulations. Not sure what your point is here.

        • ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world
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          5 hours ago

          I mirrored your comment, because I think it works backwards. From the way it sounds to me, you started with your conclusion/opinion and searched for proof of why it is right. Real socialism and the Soviet unions were deeply, deeply flawed systems from the start, but only because some implementations failed, due to essentially the same problems as capitalism, does not mean the idea as a whole is rubbish. If you read the communist manifesto and “the capital” from Karl Marx, you will read a brilliant critique of our modern contemporary system. There are some very fine ideas in there, and I think it’s dangerous to discard another perspective because some implementations have failed. The USA are the living proof of how two radically different systems can suffer from the same problems and collapse because of them. Why is it such a culture war against some genuinely very fine points that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels have made over a hundred years ago, which are relevant to this day?

          Edit: typo.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      8 hours ago

      This is generally wrong, though. Communist countries have dramatically democratized society, it can only work at large scale because that’s the Marxist reason for Communism to begin with. Competition centralizes, so in the future it must be publicly owned and planned.

      Pol Pot wasn’t even a Communist.

      • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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        8 hours ago

        Communist countries have dramatically democratized society

        No. That’s just a straightup lie. Name one.

        it can only work at large scale because that’s the Marxist reason for Communism to begin with

        And yet, it never did. Not one single time.

        Competition centralizes, so in the future it must be publicly owned and planned.

        Competition does the exact opposite of centralization. That’s why I can buy most goods from completely different vendors that differ in price and quality.

        Are there mega corpos that harm people in general? Absolutely. Should we do something about it? Absolutely. Is communism the solution? Nope.

        Pol Pot wasn’t even a Communist.

        Pol Pot followed a radical form of Maoist communism, heaviely influenced by china. So no - that’s also a lie.

        • Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net
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          7 hours ago

          Competition does the exact opposite of centralization. That’s why I can buy most goods from completely different vendors that differ in price and quality.

          Competitions have winners, and in this case it means the competition goes out of business and dies, leaving you with a near monopoly or outright monopoly.

          That power then gets used to

          • lobby (bribe) the government to raise barriers to entry to prevent new competitors
          • buy out new competitors
          • intentionally price everything lower than competitors, at a loss, to kill competitors in a war of attrition that they can’t possibly outlast

          And that’s even assuming there’s any competition at all, which often isn’t the case with certain things like healthcare, internet, electricity, etc.

          • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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            5 hours ago

            Not really? Competition might cut into your profits, sure, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be bankrupt. Just because dyson vacuums are amazing doesn’t mean stuff like vorwerk is dead, right? They still exist and are very profitable.

            I’m not saying that the ones at the top are not using their power and money to lobby and stuff, but that doesn’t really seem like a good argument to me why we should switch to communism instead of just fixing the issues we currently have lol.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          8 hours ago

          The USSR, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc are more democratic than theie previous systems.

          Communism still works, just because the Soviet Union isn’t here doesn’t mean everything is a failure.

          Competition forces centralization and monopolies over time due to increasinly complex production practices that raise the barrier to entry. It’s unavoidable.

          Pol Pot denounced Marxism and focused on an odd agrarian system, and was backed by the CIA.

          • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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            5 hours ago

            The USSR, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc are more democratic than theie previous systems.

            No?

            While these regimes may have dismantled previous monarchies, colonial systems, or oligarchies, they did not replace them with democratic governance, but rather installed rigid, one-party authoritarian states that eliminated political competition, suppressed civil liberties, and centralized power. By nearly every standard of democracy these systems fell short, making them less democratic, not more.

            Communism still works, just because the Soviet Union isn’t here doesn’t mean everything is a failure.

            No, it doesn’t. The USSR was the most successful country and only existed for like 60 years, and every other communist country that still exists today is an authoritarian shithole like Vietnam, North Korea or Cuba where people are executed and suppressed constantly.

            Competition forces centralization and monopolies over time due to increasinly complex production practices that raise the barrier to entry. It’s unavoidable.

            True for a very narrow spectrum of products and services, mostly those that are extremely expensive to manufacture/develop or those under government supervision, like medicine. Untrue for most.

            Yes, competing with twitch.tv on streaming is nearly impossible because the infrastructure is extremely expensive. But you can compete with most other companies in the space. Look at lego, for example. 15 years ago, there was only lego, nobody was competing with them, they became worse over time, more expensive, less quality, people complained and suddenly, companies like cabo or bluebricks came up and invaded the market, offering a wider variety of products.

            Pol Pot denounced Marxism and focused on an odd agrarian system,

            He still followed communist ideals for the most part, or are we going to argue that maoism is not heaviely influenced by communist ideals?

            and was backed by the CIA.

            The US never directly supported pol pot. Before 1975, they supported Lon Nol, who was fighting against the communist Khmer Rouge.

            The part that IS true is that the US did support China and Thailand at the time, which in turn used that aid to support resistance groups in cambodia because vietnam invaded cambodia in 1979 - something the US had no problem with since vietnam was backed by the soviets. Also, it is true that the US and other western countries supported keeping the Khmer Rouge as Cambodia’s official UN representative, however, that was mostly done to undermine Vietnam’s rule over cambodia.

            So, yes, by extension, the US supported pol pot, but it’s not the big “gotcha” you think it is - it was the cold war, an extremely complex geopolitical time.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 hours ago

              Read Soviet Democracy, as well as read up on the government structures of the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, etc. They are democratic.

              The PRC is more successful today than the USSR was, and is Socialist. Calling countries in the Global South “shitholes” is wildly chauvanist, along with your unsourced claims about them.

              You didn’t really go against competition causing centralization. Even further than companies, there are joinings of companies under single megacorps that share supply chains and interwork.

              Pol Pot did not “follow Communist ideals,” though. Moreover, if someone makes a clear deviation from Communism and denounces Marxism, why on Earth include it as a detractor other than clear bad-faith?

              Sure, the Cold War was complicated, but the US was never fighting for Communism and neither was Pol Pot. The Khmer Rouge never actually read Marx, and mostly declared any Communist sympathies out of aesthetics and geopolitical support than genuine support for Communism, and the US supported them.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              6 hours ago

              Soviet Democracy

              Here’s a well-sourced post on China’s democracy, but really, read their constitution and government structure if you want more.

              Cuba was under a fascist slaver before Socialism, and now has a democracy.

              The PRC is Socialist, and has one of the largest and most rapidly growing economies in the world, I don’t think you need a source for this.

              As for competition and centralization, where do you think the megacorps came from? We are more centralized now than ever before.

              Pol Pot and the CIA, alternatively Blowback lists their sources and they went over it in Season 5.

      • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
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        7 hours ago

        LOL
        The horrible feodal system with serfs/slaves the Tibetans has was sooo much better.
        Some CIA poking didn’t work to bring that back.
        And there was a small minority radicalised terrorists by Turkey and OC again the CIA to cause trouble, which they did.
        blew up a plane with civilians, multiple other attacks on busses, trainstations, etc…
        The majority never liked them and are glad it’s over.
        But nice try.

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            4 hours ago

            What, did a suicide happen years ago in a country you don’t like? Quick, use that as a weak excuse to throw mud.
            I’m sure suicide doesn’t happen in companies from the fascist US, where they have to pee in bottles.
            Sometimes a known fascist boss demands to keep his Tesla factory open in full covid peak and his slaves get sick and die.
            Plenty of them die homeless or from drugs anyway.
            No paid sick days, universal healthcare, unemployment, etc. Really a pathetic 3rd world country.
            Not to mention no other regime puts more of its citizens in jail.

            This is the embarrassing US banana republic.
            Want to try again?

      • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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        8 hours ago

        Not sure what you’re trying to say. Uyghurs are systematically eradicated and tibet is controlled by china since their invasion in the 1950s. Not exactly speaking in favor of communism.

        So, if you’d like to expand on your point, I might be able to discuss this further.

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          7 hours ago

          eradicated LOL, their population is growing, despite the many some US backed terrorist killed.
          And Tibet doesn’t have slaves anymore who literally had chains around their necks suffering under the religious buddhist monks terror.
          Yawn, can you bring up Tiananmen square again to not be original? I’ll wait

          • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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            6 hours ago

            eradicated LOL, their population is growing

            According to who? The chinese government? Lmao. Ye I would DEFINITELY trust the ones that are performing the killings on reporting accurate numbers.

            And Tibet doesn’t have slaves anymore who literally had chains around their necks suffering under the religious buddhist monks terror.

            Imperialism good when country does bad things?

            Yawn, can you bring up Tiananmen square again to not be original? I’ll wait

            I could, but if you want some originality, I can also bring up one of the other atrocities directly ordered by communist regimes, like the Prague Spring, Hungarian Revolution or the mass executions by the Khmer in Cambodia.

            • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
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              4 hours ago

              I don’t need to prove something that didn’t happen which isn’t possible, you show me proof of your fantasy eradication that isn’t from the sick nutbag Adrian Zenz. Must be easy if it’s such a genocide.

              Imperialism good when country does bad things?

              Hypocrisy good in the name of bringing democracy.

            • vfreire85@lemmy.ml
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              5 hours ago

              oh, the khmer rouge, that one that the u.s. supported along with britain, china (not so dirty back then, right) and who were toppled by the socialist regime of vietnam?

              • Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip
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                5 hours ago

                I already answered that to someone else so I’ll just copy and paste it:

                The US never directly supported pol pot. Before 1975, they supported Lon Nol, who was fighting against the communist Khmer Rouge.

                The part that IS true is that the US did support China and Thailand at the time, which in turn used that aid to support resistance groups in cambodia because vietnam invaded cambodia in 1979 - something the US had no problem with since vietnam was backed by the soviets. Also, it is true that the US and other western countries supported keeping the Khmer Rouge as Cambodia’s official UN representative, however, that was mostly done to undermine Vietnam’s rule over cambodia.

                So, yes, by extension, the US supported pol pot, but it’s not the big “gotcha” you think it is - it was the cold war, an extremely complex geopolitical time.

        • thann@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 hours ago

          Lol I meant to reply to the main thread, but you could pretend im being sarcastic and it kinda works

  • SherlockHawk@lemm.ee
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    9 hours ago

    All communist states were/are dictatorships (Soviet Union, China, North Korea).

    What the society really needs are strong democracies with a free, well regalemented market and strong social welfare (mixed economy). This is already happening in northern europe with great succes.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      9 hours ago

      This isn’t true, actually. AES states are democratic, you should read Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan.

      Northern European countries aren’t role models, either. They depend on Imperialism to fund their safety nets, and are dictatorships of the Bourgeoisie, hence why their safety nets are declining.

      • Alloi@lemmy.world
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        7 hours ago

        so by the definition of true communism, they arent adhering to the marxist definition of communism, its merely a show of democracy controlled by an oligarchy with a single party system in the case of russia.

        i dont think any monetary economic system can work long term in balance with human needs and the need of the planet to sustain us. its just not possible when there is an imaginary incentive in the form of value in 1’s and 0’s or paper, that alters our actions based on accumulation of wealth for the individual and their “tribe”, and whatever form that may take. family, friends, companies, shareholders, class, nation etc etc.

        unfortunately its hard to draw a line between automated post monetary, post scarcity, post political, post religion, and a science/ fact/resource based economy/utopia, similar to the venus project, and a technofascist authoritarian state, which is seemingly where we are heading now with how AI is being used by the powers that be.

        human error and our limited willingness to understand the needs of the many in the future, vs the needs of the few now will always be a buffer that keeps us behind in terms of societaly advancement in the form of full economic freedom and change, for the betterment of man, and the planet, in harmony.

        the only way to advance past that is either to manipulate the genome of humans, or to merge with machines and AI so that our decisions are based on scientific merit and logic towards a value of united progress, over individual success. essentially we would have to sacrifice what makes us human, so humanity could survive in an alternate form. or become some sort of digital hive mind. or some other weird and horrifying scifi trope that i hope i never live long enough to see.

        im not advocating for this, im just saying this is where the world is likely moving if we dont blow ourselves up first or wipe the slate in some way.

        feel free to disagree, i love having these kinds of discussions.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          7 hours ago

          They are adhering to Marxism, I am curious why you say they aren’t, and if you are getting that from Marx, or second-hand interpretations of Marx. I don’t want to get into the rest of your comment until we get past the part where you think there’s such thing as a “true communism” that, say, the PRC is not genuinely working towards.