Let’s do a quick thought experiment and say there was an actual legal framework for states to leave the union. How do Republicans think that would go? Under no circumstances would any major city in the south go along with leaving. Republicans states are far more purple than elections would suggest due to voter suppression, election fraud, and gerrymandering. So in reality the confederate areas would just be poor rural areas. Add in the fact that the US holds the keys to all the military equipment and weapons, the confederate areas would turn into a lawless hell scape over night. And without nuclear weapons and no international agreements for defense, I’m sure Mexico and Cuba would love to reclaim some of their lost territory.
I can go on. But the main reason these idiots keep bringing this up is to suggest violence into getting their way. It’s not even a viable option to even consider for them. The situation I made is a best case scenario for them to. If they tried to violently leave the union it would be couple million good old boys in trucks up against jets and tanks.
Would love to see your face when you consider the US military, which hasn’t won a real war in nearly 80 years, trying to occupy an area 10 times the size of Afghanistan. Please just ignore the 100 million gun-toting good old boys in trucks. I am sure they have no idea what guerilla warfare is and won’t protect their homes at all. Also, I’m sure none of that military will defect to protect their families.
Those 50 jets and 50 tanks will definitely end the conflict in the first hour.
Um what? Sorry but you are wrong on so many levels it’s concerning.
The Afghanistan forces we fought weren’t just a military force scratched together from random people off the street. They were at the time battle hardened men in their 30s and 40s, who’s leadership was trained and initially train by US advisors to fight off the USSR. They were a strong force fighting in home territory. (the same goes for the VietCong, and Once North Korea was supported by Standing army of China. The Korean War was lost.) so in reality the “good old boys” don’t have that advantage.
Secondly, those wars were lost in part due to Logistics. Fighting a war on the other side of the world is vastly different than one in your own back yard. Our opponents knew they just needed to wait us out. That would not happen in the south.
Next, the politics behind this wars was odious from the beginning. The vast majority of Americans didn’t support the wars over seas. A war against the south would be very popular in the north and mostly popular in urban areas in the south. Remember, the south wouldn’t be trying to leave to create another American Democracy. It would be for a Christian Nationalist Oligarchy. Their goal would be to reinstate slavery, women suffrage, and the genocide of LGBTQ+ people.
And finally, the military is politically “conservative” but in the economic way and not in the I think my small town with two black people is getting too ethnic way. There would be some military people that would defect, but far fewer than it would take to weaken the US military. Individuals with strong racist beliefs wash out very quickly and definitely are not in leadership! There’s a reason the military makes sure units are made up of people from all walks of life. Bigotry of any kind doesn’t make an effective fighting force.
Also remember that most red states are welfare states that need federal funding to just exist and on their own they would be broke and unable to provide basic needs like water and electricity .
Most of those states would collapse at the next hurricane that hits them. Florida had to declare a natural disaster just from 1 hurricane. Hurricane Katrina would leave Louisiana a third world country if not for federal government funds.
It’s also like they can’t even conceive the notion that most of the left and even a good few liberals are armed and train regularly and also live out in podunk.
Based on international law the states would maintain their current borders, that means the urban areas would come along for the ride (IF under an actual referendum the majority was to vote in favor of separation vs the non democratic exercise that is US elections)
The movement would probably see the creation of a new Union instead of just having a bunch of small new countries, so it would be rich enough to equip itself and create an army (and those voting in favor would probably jump on the occasion to defend their new country).
Separation doesn’t happen overnight, you go and fetch support from other countries so you’re not left without any allies or international recognition if the vote is in favor (France was ready to recognize Quebec if any of the two referendums had been in favor of independence).
You didn’t create a “best case scenario”, you just created a scenario that fits your opinion on the subject.
Disclaimer: Am not from the USA, would gladly see it getting split in multiple countries just like I would gladly see Canada split in multiple countries as I think in both cases it would stop some parts of the country from slowing down progress in other parts. Ex.: If Mississippi and its citizens want to live in a third world country so much then so be it, let the rest of the US move forward.
There is no best case scenario. It’s not a feasible plan. I don’t understand why this even gets discussed as anything other than a fantasy or a thought exercise.
Just looking at GDP/capita you can see that there are many red States that are above many European countries. The most popular example obviously is Texas at a secessionist movement has existed there for a very very long time… They have access to the ocean, a border with Mexico, resources… If they left it would probably lead to a movement where other states would want to join them to create the “United Republics of America” (to keep with the Republican theme)…
Just don’t have an extreme weather event or have any of their people with healthcare, who do you think pays to pick up the pieces? GDP/capita is not the final answer.
If you go by that logic then the USA in general can’t work as a country when compared with most other first world nations because all bad events always ends up being worse there than elsewhere. Guess the US should just reintegrate the British Empire then 🤷
Texas is going purple, though. The many, many people there that live there and are Democrats, are they going to be cool with turning it into a totally shithole country?
Texas’ GDP is what it is because it’s part of the United States.
You’re so simple you think Texas could secede from the United States and the companies and industries that promote that GDP would stay there? If clueless was a person it’s be you.
Here’s the summary for you so you don’t have to struggle through all of the points made:
Bottom line is that, yes, Texas today is a financial powerhouse. But most of that is because Texas is part of the USA with a bunch of laws that let businesses get away with things they can’t get away with elsewhere. And in part, sure, like California, they have a lifestyle that attracts those with regional mobility, like engineers. But that’s still dependent on being part of the USA.
Going independent, Texas can’t use the rest of the USA to pay, one way or another, for their “pro-business” policies. They can’t fund half the cost of state government with Federal money. They can’t make a profit on the military — they have to figure out how to pay for one. And pretty much, just as other third world countries only get the low-end of production, there’s no way an Independent Texas with economic problems, rampant unemployment, crazies in office, etc. gets much interest from investors or big business in the USA or anywhere else.
There’s also a very large potential for domination by organized crime. The Mexican drug cartels would have little trouble moving into Texas and setting up shop. The USA as a whole can pool a very large amount of money to protect the southern border, because the northern border with Canada, our Western border on the Pacific, and our eastern border on the Atlantic (yeah, that’s me waving!) need relatively little protective effort. But the Republic of Texas would be a small country with some need to be concerned about every border, but particularly their border with Mexico.
Why are you confrontational? You’re more emotionally invested in this than I am I guess.
I don’t care about thought exercises, anybody can hypothesize whatever scenario they want but there is no best case scenario because it’s not feasible.
From a purely practical perspective there is no way this could happen and giving credence to it only benefits these extremist types.
You might not be American but you sure act like one. Pretending to be an authority on a country that isn’t yours is a distinctly American behavior on the internet.
Ain’t that the whole point of common law? There’s no legal framework -> go to court -> set the precedent -> there’s your framework
Separatists have to support each others, my nation’s separatist movement is older than anyone alive today. If some US states feel like they would be better off outside the union then good on them, the super nation experiment has run its course, it’s the same as empires of ages past and I don’t see anyone here defending the British Empire and being against Canada’s Confederation or saying that Haiti should still be a French colony… Weird how hard it is to apply equal standards to everyone 🤷
Precedent like Texas v. White? Or when Antonin Scalia wrote, “The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”?
Let’s do a quick thought experiment and say there was an actual legal framework for states to leave the union. How do Republicans think that would go? Under no circumstances would any major city in the south go along with leaving. Republicans states are far more purple than elections would suggest due to voter suppression, election fraud, and gerrymandering. So in reality the confederate areas would just be poor rural areas. Add in the fact that the US holds the keys to all the military equipment and weapons, the confederate areas would turn into a lawless hell scape over night. And without nuclear weapons and no international agreements for defense, I’m sure Mexico and Cuba would love to reclaim some of their lost territory.
I can go on. But the main reason these idiots keep bringing this up is to suggest violence into getting their way. It’s not even a viable option to even consider for them. The situation I made is a best case scenario for them to. If they tried to violently leave the union it would be couple million good old boys in trucks up against jets and tanks.
Would love to see the Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator between a couple million good old boys in trucks vs like 50 jets and 50 tanks.
All them good ol boys riding Walmart mobility scooters due to spending all their points into Diabeetus.
I just wanna see them fly when the Trebuchet rock hits em.
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Would love to see your face when you consider the US military, which hasn’t won a real war in nearly 80 years, trying to occupy an area 10 times the size of Afghanistan. Please just ignore the 100 million gun-toting good old boys in trucks. I am sure they have no idea what guerilla warfare is and won’t protect their homes at all. Also, I’m sure none of that military will defect to protect their families.
Those 50 jets and 50 tanks will definitely end the conflict in the first hour.
Um what? Sorry but you are wrong on so many levels it’s concerning.
The Afghanistan forces we fought weren’t just a military force scratched together from random people off the street. They were at the time battle hardened men in their 30s and 40s, who’s leadership was trained and initially train by US advisors to fight off the USSR. They were a strong force fighting in home territory. (the same goes for the VietCong, and Once North Korea was supported by Standing army of China. The Korean War was lost.) so in reality the “good old boys” don’t have that advantage.
Secondly, those wars were lost in part due to Logistics. Fighting a war on the other side of the world is vastly different than one in your own back yard. Our opponents knew they just needed to wait us out. That would not happen in the south.
Next, the politics behind this wars was odious from the beginning. The vast majority of Americans didn’t support the wars over seas. A war against the south would be very popular in the north and mostly popular in urban areas in the south. Remember, the south wouldn’t be trying to leave to create another American Democracy. It would be for a Christian Nationalist Oligarchy. Their goal would be to reinstate slavery, women suffrage, and the genocide of LGBTQ+ people.
And finally, the military is politically “conservative” but in the economic way and not in the I think my small town with two black people is getting too ethnic way. There would be some military people that would defect, but far fewer than it would take to weaken the US military. Individuals with strong racist beliefs wash out very quickly and definitely are not in leadership! There’s a reason the military makes sure units are made up of people from all walks of life. Bigotry of any kind doesn’t make an effective fighting force.
Also remember that most red states are welfare states that need federal funding to just exist and on their own they would be broke and unable to provide basic needs like water and electricity .
Most of those states would collapse at the next hurricane that hits them. Florida had to declare a natural disaster just from 1 hurricane. Hurricane Katrina would leave Louisiana a third world country if not for federal government funds.
It’s also like they can’t even conceive the notion that most of the left and even a good few liberals are armed and train regularly and also live out in podunk.
Based on international law the states would maintain their current borders, that means the urban areas would come along for the ride (IF under an actual referendum the majority was to vote in favor of separation vs the non democratic exercise that is US elections)
The movement would probably see the creation of a new Union instead of just having a bunch of small new countries, so it would be rich enough to equip itself and create an army (and those voting in favor would probably jump on the occasion to defend their new country).
Separation doesn’t happen overnight, you go and fetch support from other countries so you’re not left without any allies or international recognition if the vote is in favor (France was ready to recognize Quebec if any of the two referendums had been in favor of independence).
You didn’t create a “best case scenario”, you just created a scenario that fits your opinion on the subject.
Disclaimer: Am not from the USA, would gladly see it getting split in multiple countries just like I would gladly see Canada split in multiple countries as I think in both cases it would stop some parts of the country from slowing down progress in other parts. Ex.: If Mississippi and its citizens want to live in a third world country so much then so be it, let the rest of the US move forward.
There is no best case scenario. It’s not a feasible plan. I don’t understand why this even gets discussed as anything other than a fantasy or a thought exercise.
Many states are in a much better position than many existing countries. Just because you refuse to consider it doesn’t make it non feasible.
You get to have your go at a thought experiment but others you disagree with don’t get to do the same?
Which of the states that would secede are in a good place to do that?
Just looking at GDP/capita you can see that there are many red States that are above many European countries. The most popular example obviously is Texas at a secessionist movement has existed there for a very very long time… They have access to the ocean, a border with Mexico, resources… If they left it would probably lead to a movement where other states would want to join them to create the “United Republics of America” (to keep with the Republican theme)…
Just don’t have an extreme weather event or have any of their people with healthcare, who do you think pays to pick up the pieces? GDP/capita is not the final answer.
If you go by that logic then the USA in general can’t work as a country when compared with most other first world nations because all bad events always ends up being worse there than elsewhere. Guess the US should just reintegrate the British Empire then 🤷
That doesn’t even make sense.
Texas is going purple, though. The many, many people there that live there and are Democrats, are they going to be cool with turning it into a totally shithole country?
Texas’ GDP is what it is because it’s part of the United States.
You’re so simple you think Texas could secede from the United States and the companies and industries that promote that GDP would stay there? If clueless was a person it’s be you.
Right, because companies don’t exist outside the USA.
You truly redefine dumb don’t you?
Here’s the summary for you so you don’t have to struggle through all of the points made:
Why are you confrontational? You’re more emotionally invested in this than I am I guess.
I don’t care about thought exercises, anybody can hypothesize whatever scenario they want but there is no best case scenario because it’s not feasible.
From a purely practical perspective there is no way this could happen and giving credence to it only benefits these extremist types.
You might not be American but you sure act like one. Pretending to be an authority on a country that isn’t yours is a distinctly American behavior on the internet.
I don’t care about thought exercisesUnless it’s yours 🤷
It’s not mine, I’m not the commenter you originally replied to.
That’s what the original commenter said. What I’m saying is it’s not feasible, in part because there is no legal framework for this.
This is one heck of a dog whistle if it’s reaching all the way outside the US.
Ain’t that the whole point of common law? There’s no legal framework -> go to court -> set the precedent -> there’s your framework
Separatists have to support each others, my nation’s separatist movement is older than anyone alive today. If some US states feel like they would be better off outside the union then good on them, the super nation experiment has run its course, it’s the same as empires of ages past and I don’t see anyone here defending the British Empire and being against Canada’s Confederation or saying that Haiti should still be a French colony… Weird how hard it is to apply equal standards to everyone 🤷
Precedent like Texas v. White? Or when Antonin Scalia wrote, “The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”?
Are you sure you’re not American?