Feel free to report antisemitic comments, but antizionism isn’t antisemitism and acting like it is is antisemitic and will net you a ban starting once this comment is posted.
Reporting borderline stuff will not get you banned but as someone who had family at auschwitz I’m tired of blatant antisemitism in defense of a settler colonialist apartheid regime.
Hall of shame:
@ElMemerino@lemmy.world
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Mmm, there’s nuance there. It can be exploited to push antisemitism, but it isn’t inherently antisemitic.
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As a Jew, I say this kindly as I possibly can but it very much is quite strong in the real world. I’ve experienced antisemitism numerous times over with people using antizionism as an excuse. Antisemitism is really bad and has risen in the past few years online and offline, and people with bad intentions absolutely exploit Israeli war crimes to justify their antisemitism. And it creates a shitty feedback loop as hardcore Zionists point to instances of antisemitism that’s in done under the guise of antizionism as “hey look see they hate us thats why we need zionism!”
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Any group. Antisemitism is unfortunately a unique form of racism that can be perpetuated by anyone. It’s complicated, and it’s complexity makes it all the more frustrating. It’s not just a Nazi thing, it’s an anyone thing. Anyone can perpetuate antisemitism, not just Nazis. That’s why it’s such a prevalent form of bigotry across the world. It’s also prevalent not just in Europe but there is antisemitism that has been culturally common in the Middle East as well as it is in the West, most of it which predates Israels founding as a whole too. That doesn’t justify Israels bullshit and their fascist government. Jew’s are hated by nearly everyone, everywhere.
Because West media purposely masking Israel with the cloak of cultural protection given to Jews is often what I discuss with my friend and is fucking disgusting and a disservice to all of the innocent Jews.
This specifically is something to be very careful when stating, as it veers dangerously close into territory of “jews control the media” which is an antisemitic conspiracy theory. I know what you are trying to say and our intentions seem to be in good faith here, but I ask you to analyze that as it is one of those things that people may take in very bad faith.
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/what-is-antisemitism/explained <- this is a good primer for it. It’s extremely complicated and there’s a reason why even in the US many well intentioned people don’t understand it either. It also doesn’t help that Israel uses legit examples of antisemitism to try and shield their war crimes from criticism.
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Also any expression of support for the Israel led genocide of Palestinians or any sort bigotry will not be tolerated as per Rule 3.
There’s a difference between antizionism and antisemitism. Just as there’s a difference between Israel and Jews.
Blame Israel, it’s anti Israel. Blame the Jews, it’s antisemitism.
Thank you.
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Antisemitism explicitly refers to hatred of Jews, it’s a weird linguistics thing but its why when referring to antisemitism there isnt a dash (anti-semitism) as that would specifically refer to all semites as a whole (which palestinians are). It has roots to the specific phrase that was used in German to refer to hatred of Jews.
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Don’t attempt to explain my own peoples hatred to me. I know more than you as I’ve lived this, as a Jew who is explicitly not a Zionist and has faced antisemitism online and offline. Stop.
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Down with the settler government
We need international peacekeeping in the region to enforce a new set of accords
The international community has shown to be Pro-Israeli and thus anti-Palestinian. The Palestinian Plan for Partition was a plan to peacefully split up British Palestine into a separate Jewish and Arab state, as well as Jerusalem becoming a free city. The plan gave 62% of the land to the Jewish community despite the Arabic population having twice the population. Obviously the Arab population rejected this plan on the basis that it violated the right to natuonal self-determination, and thus this perpetual conflict was born.
Especially with the US being so obviously Pro-Israel and having virtually all power on the decision-making of the West, why would you think the Arab population would ever get fair treatment under an international “peacekeeping” mission?The “international community” huh?
More like “the US and it’s friends”
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Well, yeah, the US and its allies are the controlling party in the international community.
@bdonvr @zephyreks Yes please, but not like this!
Very disappointed in the Lemmy community for down voting this.
Go to hell you bloodthirsty pig. Slaughtering civilians in the streets and inside air raid sirens is not resistance, it’s inhuman.
When you limit yourself to specific incidents, it’s easy to judge right and wrong. Over the course of years, though, neither side can claim the moral high ground.
Overall, this is one of the most pointless, wasteful, and inhumane conflicts in human history.
Killing - no matter the victim is inhuman.
Believing one side has the right to kill while the other must take it, is pretty gross.
“Slaughtering civilians in the streets” is precisely what the IDF does on the regular, just so you know. It’s hard to imagine any group of people would live under military occupation for 70+ years after being forced to leave their homes for refugee camps without the desire to fight for their freedom.
There is almost nothing in this world that is more human than killing other humans. History is full of it. Religious texts are full of it. It’s what humans are best at. Is it awful? Sure, but it’s an act as human as it gets.
Point made. Sadly it’s true. Especially today as we spend trillions on technology designed to kill.
No it’s not. You’re just shilling out propaganda on the day of a massacre.
Sorry, but I have been an advocate for Palestinian rights for years. I’m not just shilling out propaganda on the day of a massacre. As I type this, the confirmed death tolls have Israelis near 100 while Palestinian deaths are near double that. So if you want to start talking about massacres, just so far today Israel has caused more death, let alone the days, weeks, months, years and decades prior to today.
Isn’t that what the IDF does?
The IDF was just rounding up innocent civilians this week, you gotta look at a bigger picture than just this morning.
Imagine being brutalised for so long you resort to this
Agreed. Which is why the IDF also needs to be eliminated.
Both sides are and have been commiting atroscious acts against civilians and neither side can be excused for their inhuman actions.
But in that consideration the power imbalance cannot be ignored. The IDF is a highly modern, most likely even nuclearly armed army, wheras the people inside Gaza are denied access to such simple things as building materials by the Israeli Apartheid.
Absolutely agree with you here
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let people live and come to some terms/ reality.
So I take you support a ceasefire and negotiations to end the Russia - Ukraine war?
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If you want to discuss how the Palestinians have accomplished nothing but their own suffering, while having nothing to show for it, then I’m all ears
If you want to defend acts of Israeli apartheid towards Palestinians, I’m not going to listen. I’m South African, I oppose apartheid everywhere. As Nelson Mandela said, our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinian people.
I will not defend the killing of civilians by any side. That is morally unjustifiable. I will be clear however, that violence begets violence, and Israel has been indiscriminately bombing civilians (a terrorist tactic), and stealing land and homes for decades. The way to end this is to stop the violence, and come to the negotiation table. A two state solution of some sort is a compromise that is desperately needed to ease tensions.
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You’ve been defending terrorists the whole time. Israel has never taken hostages like the Palestinians have. There’s no end goal in these attacks. Whatever problems the Palestinians have will not be fixed by what they’re doing.
I can change the place names in your quote a bit and you sound exactly like the typical boilerplate response of a 1970s-80s South African pro-Apartheid liberal whining about how “uMkontho we Sizwe is too violent”. Just flatly admit that you support the Apartheid rule and the list of crimes perpetrated by the Israeli government.
No, they just double tap buildings to kill rescuers. Very noble.
. If you want to discuss how the
PalestiniansBanderites have accomplished nothing but their own suffering, while having nothing to show for it, then I’m all ears.Ftfy
hey you should die. screaming, preferably.
Agreed, we need for the Europeans and occupiers to go home.
u mad, settler?
Allow me to join you
tell that to the fascist government exterminating palestinians on their own land
That’s what op was advocating for. Or did you forget that Israel is an apartheid state?
and come to some terms/ reality.
Imagine telling this to someone when France was under occupation by Germany
What a moving, salient political take. Good thing “Just stop it and leave us alone😡🤬” is a belief that always survives against armed militant resistance
With the establishment of a relationship of oppression, violence has already begun. Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed. How could they be the initiators, if they themselves are the result of violence? How could they be the sponsors of something objective whose objective inauguration called forth their existence as oppressed? There would be no oppressed had there been no prior of violence to establish their subjugation.
And it is clear that in the colonial countries the peasants alone are revolutionary, for they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The starving peasant, outside the class system is the first among the exploited to discover that only violence pays. For him there is no compromise, no possible coming to terms; colonization and decolonization a simply a question of relative strength.
Get this into your head: if violence were only a thing of the future, if exploitation and oppression never existed on earth, perhaps displays of nonviolence might relieve the conflict. But if the entire regime, even your nonviolent thoughts, is governed by a thousand-year old oppression, your passiveness serves no other purpose but to put you on the side of the oppressors.
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The illegal settlements that are condemmed by the UN? Yeah sound about right to let murderous religious fundamentalist occupiers just occupy. You say the same to the Ukrainian people fighting the Russian invasion? They should just come to terms with Crimea being occupied?
“We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians … Choose peace rather than confrontation. Except in cases where we cannot get, where we cannot proceed, or we cannot move forward. Then if the only alternative is violence, we will use violence.”
- Nelson Mandela
I guess the time has come where Palestinians cannot move forward, and have to use violence.
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“World opinion”
I think you mean ‘the opinion of the US and it’s allies.’ The world is much bigger than that, and opinions about Israel in the rest of the world are not great.
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Israel has labeled BDS, the actual peaceful option, terrorism.
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“It is of no use for Israel to talk of peace, if they still hold onto the Arab territories of which they conquered.”
Want to guess who said this one?
The Palestinians have been pushed to breaking point by decades of apartheid. Obviously terrorist acts and killing civilans by any side is unjustifiable, but general Palestinian resistance against Israeli military targets and soldiers is self defence at this point. And let’s be very clear, you can’t steal Palestinian people’s homes, kick Palestinians out of their land, and joyfully watch Palestinians being bombed in an open air concentration camp , which Israeli settlers have been doing to Palestinians, and not expect a response in turn. You reap what you sow.
The Palestinians are a sovereign people being genocided by an occupying armed force. What are they supposed to do? Just wait there patiently to be exterminated one by one?
This could easily be stopped by Israel just getting the fuck out of Palestinian land.
Yeah totally, words are a war crime. Get a grip you’re hysterical.
Right?!? Literally the most reactionary take possible, acting like Isreal hasn’t done anything wrong to the Palestinians, or had gaza under crippling sanctions for decades…
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It’s moderated, your shit was removed lmao.
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Cope
Do you not understand how federation works?
there’s a modlog at the bottom of every page if you want even more evidence of how hilariously wrong you are
that’s where I had to go to see you calling internet comments “war crimes” since your post had been removed
also - lol, lmao
Lol it was removed by a hexbear mod on the hexbear instance. Only you and your fragile commie buddies were spared from the horrors of his dumb take
Also, too bad this place isn’t moderated, getting hard to choose between it and Reddit
Then go back to reddit then and spare us your concern troll moaning in support of a genocidal ethnostate. Any violence done by Palestinians is self defense at this point.
Also, this place is heavily moderated, it’s just not an echo chamber where you’re going to see nothing but opinions identical to your own (dogshit) worldview. Yes, your first comment was removed, as well it should have been.
Palestinians: got their land stolen by Israel
Israel: Surprised stealing people’s land makes them want to shoot you
SurprisedPikachu.png
Yes, the land is stolen. Yes, resistance is legitimate. No, murder of civilians is not acceptable, no matter which side does it.
Would you really hold the same view if native Americans massacred American civilians in the US today?
Personally my stance isn’t so much that I think its “acceptable” as I think its “an unfortunate reality”. Revolutions are not clean, ever. Individuals involved in it do bad things. Holding the oppressed to the standards of having a completly clean revolution (impossible) is just counterproductive. I support the revolutionaries even if not every action they take is morally right. I dont withdraw my support for something that is good on the whole because of individual acts that are not good.
Its also worth noting that Israel chose to put civilians on the front lines of a settler project, and that this is kind of the obvious consequence of that. It can easily be argued, I think correctly, that they wanted this so they could look like the victims. Despite them being the oppressors.
if u.s. “civilians” were intentionally aiding in the genocide their government is carrying out? yes, killing them would be 100% justified, no matter who did it or when.
Settlers are not civilians. They are non combat support for the illegal occupation.
Yeah you’re right your right I’m just being a shitter sorry
However, your last question is a little interesting. I would support it If native Americans were slaughtering Americans while they were still stealing their land. Israel is contemporary colonialism, and because they can get away with it and still be the victims, that is white supremacy
Remember when Israel just mowed down peaceful protestors after Trump moved the American embassy to Jerusalem? That embassy hasn’t been moved back under a Democratic president, either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
This is but one example, under a climate of constant incursion into Gaza and stealing ever more land. That’s what Israeli settlements are, after all. They claim land from Palestinians, force them out of their homes, then move in Israeli families.
Anything Hamas does is self-defense.
i want to wake up to a world without Israel
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You and Hams have something in common.
so weird how the victims of a genocide would prefer the apartheid state to not exist
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Palestine is not enacting a genocide. That assertion is frankly disgusting.
Have libs really begun to abuse the word “genocide” so badly that an act of war by itself against an oppressive state is now considered genocidal?
They will if Hamas gets their way.
Yeah just like Russia totally wants to kill every last Ukranian, right? You clowns have nothing but projection.
When the Apartheid rule in South Africa ended, a “Truth and Reconciliation Commission” was set up to prevent just this kind of retaliation from materializing. Even the Big Black Book of why Israel is peepeepoopoo according to South Africa that I have, even suggests also setting up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for this same reason for when Palestine is liberated.
However, you are more than likely engaging in a bad-faith argument, so…
you’re a fucking clown
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okay well thanks for your prognostication but israel is doing a genocide now
what may or may not happen in the future according to the world’s least informed dipshit is irrelevant
I know it’s unlikely to happen, but you liberals should really start asking yourselves why these sort of hypothetical scenarios are required to justify your worldview.
they’re in constant state of terror to the tune of “they’ll do to us what we did to them!”
see also US slaveowners with their constant fantasizing about slave revolts, and their increased brutality to the enslaved to prevent it.
see also ancient spartans living in constant terror of a slave uprising and brutalizing their enslaved populations.
see also current US whites malding about the non-white population rising…
always the same shit with these fucks.
Have you read Hamas mission statement - it literally is to commit genocide
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Been seeing claims on social media (so of course be skeptical) of at least one destroyed Merkava tank, POWs taken from that tank, a Zionist Entity military barracks overwhelmed with loss of all occupiers inside, and Palestinian fighters in control of at least one illegal settlement.
May Palestine finally be free, from the river to the sea.
The unit the barracks allegedly belonged to. If true it means some of those responsible for the killing of Ibrahim al-Nabulsi have been brought to justice.
something tells me retaliation for this wont be pretty for them
It won’t be, but nothing about being forced in an open air concentration camp is pretty
i know, im from the 3rd world too.
just makes me sad.
The only path to victory is protracted guerilla war. Their best case scenario is fighting for a decade.
There are videos of a Merkava destroyed by a drone-launched PG-7, photos of a second destroyed Merkava, and videos of MANPADS shooting down Israeli helicopters.
I saw the footage of a drone dropping an explosive on a Merkava. Video cut out before the smoke cleared so who knows if the tank was knocked out? I know at least one Merkava was burned and IDF prisoners taken from it, so entirely possible.
The only video of Israeli helicopters I’ve seen are video game fakes a la Ukrainian cope from 2022.
Palestinian freedom currently involves the indiscriminate murder of civilians in villages occupied by Palestinian “fighters”.
Israel existing involves the indiscriminate massacre of Palestinians. You only care when they fight back. Eat shit
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Where did they get those homes?
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your wagers are as worthless as you are.
Do you have any actual criteria for that stat? I don’t either but I know I’ve seen enough videos of families removed at gun point from their homes, enough for a few lifetimes.
Hell, the attacks on Al Asqa is more than enough proof that they’re not simply building homes on land they own, but are acting as a violent invading force.
but in the vast majority of cases Israeli operations don’t intend to harm civilians.
You mean like when apartment towers, hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, media offices, etc. in the Gaza Strip get leveled? Also, what are the Israeli secret service doing in the Oliver Tambo Airport all the way in Johannesburg for the past 15 years?
but in the vast majority of cases Israeli operations don’t intend to harm civilians.
That is categorically untrue. What do you think the intention of bombing the Gaza strip is? The population density there is too high for precision airstrikes to be a possibility. What do you think Israeli settlers stealing the homes of Palestinians is? Israel has bombed the offices of journalists and killed them before. How is that not intending to harm civilians. Just because Israel uses the cloak of plausible deniability and fancy language to say that they don’t target civilians, it doesn’t make it true.
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They enjoy killing civilians because they view all Palestinians as subhumans and threats.
I know these people, I know they don’t target civilians.
no you don’t
lmao he sounds like a guy getting interrogated for a crime he helped a friend cover up. Just lying on easy mode.
“the Palestinian population has been increasing for decades.”
Hasbara talking point detected.
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Do you support terrorists roaming the streets and killing families in their homes?
no, but you do, fascist piece of shit.
Do you support terrorists roaming the streets and killing families in their homes?
No, thats’s why I’m anti-Isreal
Yeah I guess 5,000+ Palestinians just happened to be involved in wacky Looney Toons accidents near Israeli military operations.
the vast majority of cases Israeli operations don’t intend to harm civilians.
And it’s still happening, fully out of your reach. Cry like the bitch you are
Yet you guys freak out when this argument is used on Ukraine. Both are bullshit arguments btw.
I don’t even understand what you’re trying to say.
Did Ukrainian soldiers do this? I definitely don’t support that. I also have a lot of criticism for Ukraine, don’t assume I disagree with all your opinions just because you disagree with one of mine.
And it’s not a bullshit argument. Israel is a small country, there are a lot of people dead and missing, my girlfriend’s family lives in Sderot, she hasn’t heard from anyone since the early morning. This isn’t some theoretical argument on an online message board for me - people I know may have been killed by terrorists.
If you take a look at Israeli and Russian media, you’ll find out that they pretty use the same methods of propaganda (and sure some things are different, but the general census is the same).
Dehumanizing the enemy, and lumping all of its people together, meanwhile trying to justify their actions with the victim approach. “oh please help i’m getting attacked, i have done nothing wrong, those guys over there are terrorists/nazis, we’re only liberating it from the horrible terrorists/nazis who keep bombing this place! we’re doing this for peace!”
Also, why do you think the “terrorists” are doing this? Surely it wouldn’t be because of the illegal occupation of Palestine that Israel has been doing since 1948, with the Nakba (where various militant groups such as Irgun and Lehi did a massacre on Palestinian people, the looting of Palestinian homes, and evasion tactics such as planting trees to hide the fact that this was once Palestinian land being a huge part of it). IDF also play a major role in the occupation, as they very much want their presence known.
IDF raid houses for the purpose of taking picture of all the family members in the house to use as data for BlueWolf (which is basically a profile of Palestinians so that Israel’s surveillance cameras can easily recognize their faces). They can also do a “house search” where they knock everything over and then come up empty-handed because they don’t know what they’re searching for. They can also use the house that they just raided as a sort of military base.
Their most recent crime is the killing of a journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh. They then lied through their teeth while Israeli bots posted misinformation say that “the terrorists fired on her”, which was quickly debunked. They call that a “PR blitz”. Also, for them, bombing hospitals (such as the al-Shifa hospital), schools, media towers (Al-Jalaa building being one example), apartment buildings (such as Hamadi tower), and if that isn’t enough, the al-Shati refugee camp is known as “mowing the lawn”.
So of course the Palestinians have every right to fight back, just like the Ukrainians do. I don’t agree with every method (just as i don’t agree with every method the Ukrainians use),. That being said, they are being occupied by a country who’s raiding and demolishing homes, doing random assassinations, and to top it all off, throwing tear gas into mosques and hospitals because that’s what the most moral army in the world does. No surprise that they fight back. They aren’t just going to surrender their land to the occupiers.
I’m sorry for you and for your girlfriend’s family. I hope and pray they aren’t hurt … was going to write more but my heart breaks for them and for others as I write this. :'( I’m sorry that doesn’t mean much coming from a randomer across the internet.
I try to remember the situation here is more complex than the parts I know about and read about, but having heard of what the insurgents are doing to civilians, and the glee at killing and degradation and massacre, I’m disgusted and sickened. And disgusted at people gleefully supporting such murder.
Free Palestine!
Associated Press: Hamas militant group has started a war that ‘Israel will win,’ defense minister says
New York Times: Gaza and Israel on War Footing After Militants Launch Surprise Assaults
Arab News: Hamas launches surprise attack as gunmen enter Israel
Israel Hayom: Hamas claims dozens of Israelis captured in surprise offensive; 4 Israelis killed by rocket fire
RT: Hamas launches major attack on Israel
SCMP: Rocket barrages from Gaza strike Israel amid Hamas infiltrations
Xinhua: Barrages of rockets fired from Gaza into Israeli cities
The Guardian: Israel declares state of war after Hamas fires thousands of rockets and ‘militants cross border’
BBC: Palestinian gunmen infiltrate Israel after rocket barrage from Gaza
100% completely uncritical support to the liberatory resistance fighters of Palestine in their pursuit of decolonisation of their lands and right to self defence against Israel’s aggression, occupation and destructive regime.
Uncritical support of murder of children, of rape, of massacring defenseless civillians, and you think you are somehow better than the imperialists? Disgusting.
Israel started the brutality, Palestine has to do whatever it takes. The Israeli government is to blame for Israeli deaths
“After Hamas Offensive” fucking Zionist rag, even after Israel literally blew up their fucking offices in Palestine
Al Jazeera is run by a bunch Brits that have full editorial control unless it conflicts with Qatar’s foreign interests. It’s a giant dogsh*t media outlet pretending to be progressive. It’s like The Guardian of the middle east, not worth wiping your butt with.
considering this is what lemm.ee is allowing, i can only imagine what the more reddit-infested lemmy.world looks like
I’ve created a community for them here on hexbear as well
This is why we require mod approval for new comms.
It looks like a tiny sub with three people at the most commenting, and that’s just me being generous and not assuming they’re all alts.
I used to give lemmy world shit for being full of reddit users but I find their users aren’t anywhere nearly as consistently badly behaved as the other reddit alts like lemmee and feddit.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !laughingatpalestine@lemm.ee
13 hours later, it seems it’s gone. At least I cannot access it.
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Scary times. Struggling to understand the Palestinian goals here; surely unless they somehow have a quick and total victory over Israel, the backlash against them will be horrific?
The lack of serious responses shows how ignorant people here are to this issue (even though many speak about it confidently).
The way I see it, Hamas is trying to elicit a disproportionate response from Israel in order to jeopardize recent normalization efforts.
That makes sense to me. I’ve heard that the Saudis and possibly other Arab states have already condemned Israel over their response.
It’s like a prison riot. You have to fight back knowing that you will be crushed again, but if you don’t Israel will just continue the slow slaughter of Palestinians.
If you can try to get some breathing room and make it painful to the other side you can hope Israel will someday stop.
Has there every been a prison that had to shut down and release all the prisoners due to continious riots? It just doesn’t seem like a strategy that can actually work.
The difference is that the comparison shouldn’t happen because Gaza is not actually a prison so the people in it aren’t prisoners they are civilians with militants mixed in because there is no way out.
If Israel didn’t oppress and let the people live their lives, then perhaps they wouldn’t lash out with these rocket attacks.
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Nah, that’s Israel, they’re the apartheid state, remember?
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Clearly you don’t understand what the term “apartheid” means, nor why Israel has been called an “apartheid” state for decades.
Also the irony of you telling two South Africans “that they have no clue what they’re talking about”.
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I’m no South African, but you’re a useful idiot for the ruling class if you are so ready to dismiss the voices of minoritized groups, i.e. the ones who don’t have the media reach to tell you what to think.
Damn, can’t believe we managed to get Terre’Blanche himself in this thread.
no u
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It’s not a buzzword, it is apartheid. South Africans who have fought against apartheid and suffered under it agree, that Israel is an apartheid state. I know because I have I have talked to them. If you can’t agree with that, there is no use having a conversation.
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drown in your own piss, fascist
Least Fascist Zionist
look out, here comes my piss jar from the 20th floor
I’m looking up combat footage in Telegram, and it ain’t looking pretty for the Zionists. You can tell the Palestinians caught them completely off guard with all the dead IDF solders lying in the pool of their blood without combat gear or even pants. Paper tigers always act tough until the colonized fight back, then they’re cowering in garbage bins or taking the first flight back to the US and Europe.
The million dollar question is whether the US will write off Ukraine as a loss in order to bolster its most prized proxy state or whether the US will continue to stretch itself thin by fighting multiple fronts.
Man, what a dumb comment.
They are unarmed and fear being shot, how the fuck is that cowering? It’s just a bunch of teens trying to survive.
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Which telegrams?
Or the people upload only things where they look like they are winning?
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