• prole@sh.itjust.works
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    11 months ago

    You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”

    What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.

    This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.

    I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.

    • R0cket_M00se@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Why is it whenever people commit atrocities, personal responsibility just doesn’t exist anymore?

      “They just can’t help but kill hundreds of civilians! They were forced to!”

      Fuck off.

      • Citadel Lewis@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Love how there’s no call for responsibility when it’s Israel committing the atrocities. Here’s just some examples out of thousands:

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

        https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

    • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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      11 months ago

      I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.

      I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        11 months ago

        They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.

        This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.

        Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.

        • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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          11 months ago

          They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.

          I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.

          There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.

          There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.

          Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.

          • prole@sh.itjust.works
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            11 months ago

            The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.

            • WuTang @lemmy.ninja
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              11 months ago

              Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.