Obviously illegal. Collective punishment is a war crime and makes Israel a monster. Imagine if there was a murderer in your building and the feds blew the entire building up.
Israel is willingly lead by a monster.
“The only democracy in the Middle East”
Didn’t you just describe Putin’s warm up run in the late ninties?
Remember when they did this?
Real Qinshi HuangDi legalism energy
As is punishing all Russian passport holders for the action of the government. So it’s either both EU and Israel are monsters or neither is.
Not being able to spend summer in the Algarve and being brutally murdered is totally the same thing.
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Starving people to death via a siege and not allowing passport holders to visit are worlds apart.
Aside from that, it would be a violation of sovereignty to say which countries other countries had to allow in. Countries can and do block passports all the time.
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
Please, by all means, inform the class what “collective punishments” Russian Citizens are currently facing that are directly equivalent to what Israel is doing.
You won’t because you’re a 🤡 and you know it.
You’re missing the forest for the trees.
I feel like if I continue to argue with you we’ll end up debating what the meaning of every word.
Blocking people’s access to all food, electricity, and water is entirely different than a country banning travel from another country.
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Collective punishment IS a war crime. Travel is a privelege, not being able to go on holiday to specific places isn’t punishment. Do you realise most countries aren’t permitted to travel somewhere?
It’s not about traveling, and not about Russians at all. I just gave an example. Look,
Ursula von der Leyen was against Russians destroying the energy infrastructure of Ukraine.
The same Ursula supports energy blockade of Gaza by Israel.
It’s just pure hypocracy.
In both cases the civilian population suffers the most. In both cases it’s a war crime and should be condemned.
You’re on about something completely different now.
There’s a bit of false equivalency here methinks
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Can we agree that “not letting people with Russian passport travel in NATO countries”
And “Slaughtering civilians en masse in retaliation to a terrorist attack”
Are just a wee bit different as far “collective punishment” goes?
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
……you’re comparing passports to murdering civilians.
Something tells me you still are not getting the point about collective punishment. But hey, you won’t be the first person who can’t see the hypocrisy in all of us.
Launching missiles across borders is different than securing your own borders. You can’t possibly really be trying to equate the two?
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Hmmm let’s stay on topic. I didn’t say I support collective punishment of Palestine or anyone. I said missiles aren’t the same thing as border restrictions, because they clearly aren’t. Do you actually disagree?
As a punished Russian living in Lomonosov, let me explain you what has changed for us since this “punishment” started:
Absolutely nothing.
(Oh, yes, Coke bottles are now green, instead of red.)
This is not valid in all cases as I know multiple Russians and those living in EU continue to do so with no issue and those living in RU say it doesn’t affect them. You can even find interview with random RU citizens in RU and they all say it doesn’t affect them or that they want to attack UA BC Nato boarder is too close.
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
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Ursula von der Leyen was against Russians destroying the energy infrastructure of Ukraine.
The same Ursula supports energy blockade of Gaza by Israel.
If you don’t see a hypocrisy from our leaders of the west, you brainwashed.
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I don’t think I missed the point though.
I’m ststating that Russians don’t seem to be directly afected aside from having their favorite EU vacation destinations accessible via France or Turkey instead directly from Moscow. It means that so called collective punishment was either ineffective or so mild, that it had almost no effect on dayly lives of citizens.
You compare this with bombing city, being cut out of water, food, medicine and energy.
If anything, Russians collectively punished Ukrainians by shelling,detroying their energy and tradic infrastructure to make winter as bad as possible for UA.
Well, no shit. And nothing will be done about it.
Not directed at OP
Israel’s actions are a direct consequence of what Hamas did," Borrell’s spokesman had said in Brussels earlier the same day.
Uhh, I think you meant to say “Hamas’ actions are a direct consequence of what Israel has been doing to Gaza”
You really wouldn’t gather this by looking at the media churn. It’s pro Israel to with it’s foot to the floor. If you dare voice distention, you are labeled to be an anti Semite. This successful tactic has been a go to for years. For Israel to know true peace, they need to dump its current leadership. I won’t see this happen in my lifetime.
I don’t know what media you read, but this has not been my experience with The Intercept, Aljazera, and Democracy Now
I think you answered your own question… None of those are “media churn” AKA mainstream media, but are instead alternative independent media outlets.
“Jungle” Borell still in peak colonialist form.
It both is the case. But it should be really obvious to anyone that even a horrific terrorist attack doesn’t just absolve Israel from international law.
Jesus Christ. 1200 civilians died. You are actually impossible
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No. You’re confused. Hamas is a terrorist society, Israel is not. You do not kill hundreds of innocent people and blame it on oppression.
Hamas is Gaza’s government and military. Yes, they’ve committed war crimes and many call them terrorists.
The IOF is Israel’s military. Yes, they’ve committed war crimes and many call them terrorists.
Yeah, you may call them terrorist, but you know deep down that you were wrong… Before Saturday, Gaza Strip had power they had a University they had libraries, and they had shit loads of mosques spread around the city. Now they have nothing because they allowed a religious terrorist organization to run their society. War is awful, innocents die, but ultimately there is a result of change. In this case, the change will be the extermination of Hamas Terrorists at any cost, once and for all.
I’m all for open discussions. But… shouldn’t one know the basic facts on a topic before seemingly expressing an opinion on the matter? You clearly need to take an unbiased look at the situation.
You do not kill hundreds of innocent people and blame it on oppression.
The oblivious irony of such a statement.
In other words you have no argument, which is exactly what I expected
Why do you expect an argument? I’m pointing out what seems to me as a flaw in reasoning based on what seems to be a lack of understanding of the situation.
That’s the thing Mann I don’t misunderstand the situation… You do. The atrocities that Hamas is responsible for is only punishable via death with war comes civilian casualties until we can figure out a way to only kill military personnel. This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time of its being I know you don’t understand what I’m saying and that’s OK let’s just agree to disagree.
I doubt I’m anything like you, and I also doubt I think like you. I’ve spent my life always critical of what I think, always allowing myself to be wrong. So I don’t look at this situation with the gut feeling and emotion you seem to have. I look at humans, and human behavior. I’m skeptical of any news and media, especially if there is reason to suspect an agenda.
This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time
Each of those sentences combined, paints such a strong picture, that I’m surprised you cannot see it for what it is.
No, you kill thousands of innocent people and say they were terrorists or helping terrorists.
You obviously dont know your history. This all started when Britain made shady deals with a bunch of countries during the first world war. And even before that Israel was on that land before there was ever a Palestine.
Palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years, it is their home. The Isreali settlers started showing up 70 years ago and forced the inhabitants out of their houses. Do you seriously think that Jewish people deserve that land because of the religion of its inhabitants in ancient roman times?
You do know their were always arab jews in tbe region. Just saying from Morroco to Yemen but with Israel’s creation, jews were expelled from every Arab nation. Only Iran let those who wanted to stay in an islamist country.
When were Jews expelled for every Arab nation? I don’t think that’s true. Like you said “there were always Arab Jews in the region” but they were a minority. The modern Israeli citizens are mostly immigrants though.
That surprises me. I thought sharia law demands that you let peaceful infidels stay as long as they don’t practice their infidelity in public and pay the jizyah. I mean, it obviously sucks and is tailored in a manner that infidels are leaving, but there is no forced relocation as in zionism.
If you go by the Quran Jews aren’t even called infidels. They are considered People of the Book. But you are thinking that Arabs follow the Quran devoutly. They cherry pick like all the conservative Christian’s in the west. It doesn’t matter which religion they have they will be hateful against “others” regardless.
the mistake youre making is comparing sharia law to zionism
one is religious rules, the other is a political ideology heavily influenced by religious rules
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That was a long time ago, Palestine will NEVER reclaim the land as theirs. Get over it. Just like America took land from native Americans, it is America now. Land is controlled for a period of time by a specific soceity and eventually it transfers to a more powerful society. That is how it works regardless of how you feel.
Being bigger and more powerful doesn’t mean you aren’t a bully. Israel being more powerful and more palatable doesn’t mean they aren’t terrorists. The US is a bad example if you’re trying to say Israel was in the right, because the US certainly wasn’t.
I think he was referring to the IDFs penchant for shooting Palestinian kids in the back for funsies for the last few years.
Source for this claim?
Jason Lee, Country Director for Save the Children in the occupied Palestinian territory, said:
“It is unacceptable that there is continued use of lethal force against children. So far, 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank have lost their lives in 2022, in what has become the deadliest year for children in more than 15 years. One Israeli child was reportedly also killed in an attack just this morning. Once again, children are paying the heaviest price for a conflict they have no control over."
It’s so easy to blame the British empire for any geopolitical mistake isn’t it?
I mean, they deserve it
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Someone should probably do something about that huh
“And in response we will send 100 billion in lethal aid directly to Israel.”
Israelis are doing a genocide in Gaza right now and the whole western world will celebrate it at worst and tut about it at best. Disgusting
Yes, they are doing a genocide.
I’m not sure what other options are available at this point though.
Hamas is extremist to the point where they would be doing a genocide as well if they were in the position to do so.
People say separate the Hamas from the people, but that’s really hard when the members of Hamas are of the people and have the support of a good percentage of them.
If Israel invades on foot and Hamas is threatened they can simply fade back into the population and wait to try again. And the general population will support them in doing so.
The creation of the state of Israel was a mistake and the rise of Hamas is the direct result of decades of apartheid practiced against the Palestinians by the Israeli state.
… But as the issue stands today, I can’t blame Israel in taking extreme action to end the conflict that’s dragged on for nearly a century now.
There is no reasonable path to peace. A two state solution would end with the states at war anyway as both states have extreamists who want to genocide the other in government positions.
And there is no where that would accept the Gaza population as refugees even if you could get them to leave.
So what’s left?
Yes, they are doing a genocide.
I’m not sure what other options are available at this point though.
I’d love to hear your explanation for how you totally aren’t a fascist
Hamas is extremist to the point where they would be doing a genocide as well if they were in the position to do so.
The exact same nonsense was said about the end of apartheid in South Africa. That the extremist communist party and ANC would genocide white people. It never happened. This is literally a talking point from ex apartheid South African president PW Botha he said the same nonsense:
“I am not prepared to lead white South Africans and other minority groups on a road to abdication and suicide,”
Israel and South Africa really are very similar countries
Unfortunately, both were apartheid states at one point…
Thankfully one no longer is
well also being apartheid, settler colonial states, that relied on US support and technical military dominance over neighbours, and that developed nuclear weapons on their own
that developed nuclear weapons on their own
Actually Israel and apartheid South Africa developed and tested nuclear weapons together, see the vela incident…
Indeed.
But the ANC and Hamas are not similar at all.
That the extremist communist party and ANC would genocide white people. It never happened.
I don’t think most people in South Africa desire that or even want that. White people are a tiny minority in South Africa, 7% of the population, if the majority of the country wanted white people gone, it would’ve happened already. People just wanted apartheid to end and historic inequalities to be dealt with. The first already happened, the second is happening at a snails pace, if it’s even happening at all in some cases.
white folks who have had their brains rewired to justify the genocidal histories of their peoples always think genocide is the default, against all fucking evidence
This is also because the apartheid government caved under not only international but more important domestic pressure as they were perfectly aware that there would be civil war and mass bloodshed if they had not given in to reforms and the end of apartheid. It’s not clear what would have happened otherwise if, for instance, they had doubled down or intensified the apartheid system with even more extensive fascistic slave-labour in the 80s. As South Africa had an economic model that was descended from the settler-colonial plantation system, as seen, and utilized extensive unpaid (effectively slave) labor, it’s not unimaginable that if they’re pushed the system deeper then there would have been far more retaliatory bloodshed.
Hi comrade. Not coming at you personally or aggressively but I feel I do have to come back pretty hard on this take.
The same words can be used in different contexts with different implications, and in the one case they can be correct, in another they can be wrong. The difference which makes your analogy not hold is that the ANC is not Hamas, and pretending otherwise is either confused or disingenuous. They are extremely different organizations. The ANC was a broad-tent organization that included conservatives, nationalists, reactionaries, and revolutionary socialists, notably communists (especially in the armed wing). The armed wing did carry out military operations obvs, but they did not have as a common or explicit policy the indiscriminate torture of unarmed children or torture. They never carried out actions like Hamas has done. Not least because they were sufficiently progressive to recognize that this would politically idiotic, given that the anti-apartheid cause was perceived as depending on foreign pressure on apartheid SA. It seems clear to me that the same applies to the Palestinian case, thought the problem if ofc that the situation is so fucked that the main organization capable and willing of waging armed resistance would not only be terrible for a Palestinian left’s growth in the long-run but could also lead to a regional destabilization which would be harmful for the left in the region more broadly and would likely only benefit Islamists. The actual idea situation would be another leftist-led Intifada, but this has been prevented by Israel, but is also not in the interest of either Hamas or the PA, as it would undermine their authority and power they possess thanks to Israel in Gaza and the West Bank respectively.
By contrast, Hamas are very different. The is evidence for Hamas being the way they are has been there since their inception. They are Islamists. They are extremely fascistic in their politics. They explicitly equate Jews and Israel frequently in their media and they are otherwise clear in their genocidal anti-semitism. Murdering children in their homes is not national-liberation. I’d also add that Hamas are not identical to Palestinians and their actions are not immediately identical with, though they are unfortunately the main military vehicle currently available for, the struggle for Palestinian liberation. Not only that, but Hamas have consistently proven throughout their existence that they do not desire full Palestinian liberation, otherwise they would not have run affairs in Gaza (to the extent they are able in an Israeli open-air concentration-camp) the way they have. This is in no way surprising, given that the interests of Islamists are no less inimical to those of actual working class and liberation movements than fascists and ultra-nationalists, though the latter might also find themselves in the inferior position in asymmetrical warfare with an imperialist power and at the military head of the movement against said imperialism.
Quite frankly, it is an insult to the South African liberation movement to equate them with Hamas, as opposed to the genuinely progressive aspects of the Palestinian liberation movement.
I do think it is important to note these profoundly reactionary aspects of Hamas, otherwise we end up with a blinkered, confused view of what is happening, which is not simply reducible to Hamas being or leading a progressive revolution in Gaza. That in no way changes the fact that the mass of Palestinians who are taking part in these operations are attempting to combat Israeli apartheid and genocide and defend themselves. They evidently feel they have no other choice. But neither does the latter point make Hamas a progressive organization who should be explicitly supported as the solution to Palestinians’ oppression.
The right and need of Palestinians to depend themselves does not, however, in any way imply that every organization that happens to be the means they can do it through now is ideal, good, progressive, or that that will benefit them in the long run. Palestinian Marxists and other groups have found themselves in a situation where they feel they have no option or choice other than to form a front with Hamas in this. The deeper reasons and processes that led to that decision are not entirely clear from outside. We can unequivocally support Palestinian liberation and their self-defense while recognizing that Hamas is otherwise reactionary and therefore will not be the ideal vehicle Also, frankly, I’m never going to support an organization that tortures gay people and throws their Marxist opponents off of rooftops. Unfortunately I’m a pessimist on the front of how the political situation will develop in the long-term as I think the situation’s possible developments are going to be catastrophic in any case, given the genocidal nature of the Israeli apartheid state, how profoundly reactionary Hamas are, and that the material conditions do not allow for the strength of a Communist movement. That would require more ideal conditions which are not to be found in Gaza, and I also don’t think will be brought closer by this current round of war. Israel does of course have ultimate responsibility for this as the genocidal apartheid occupying power, but reaction can bread reaction.
Not all national liberation movements are equal. Not all methods are politically or morally equal. People on this site seem to be able to make this realization in several other cases, such as with ostensibly ‘communist’ groups like the Khmer Rouge and Sendero Luminoso, yet unable to consistently make the same obvious realization in the case of groups in the middle east who’s interests are opposed to those of Western imperialism. There’s a deep and hysterical need among a lot of the western left, not only including but above all among those who are not Marxists but ultras of various types, to unequivocally identify Hamas with the Palestinian people and the cause of Palestinian Liberation with anything that Hamas does, which is a really bizarre and honestly perverse (especially in its reduction of Palestinians to Hamas) form of metaphysical argument by semantic shift of the meaning of the words being used, to make something appear to imply something which it actually does not.
The slightest glance at the history of the relationship of the USSR to national liberation movements makes clear that serious and intelligent socialists of the past who have actually held political power and had geopolitical relevance were perfectly aware that not all national liberation groups are politically equal. Their support was never unconditional, because they were not ultra edgelords on the internet. They were a serious geopolitical power with a specific socialist ideology, and their support was therefore conditional on there being a minimum of progressive aspects to the movements they supported. Of course, this did lead to cases of of questionable or debatable support (such as the Guomingdang or the Derg), and the case is even worse when we consider the CPC’s foreign policy. But that these were mistakes (if they were) is made clear by how they contradicted with the socialist principles which were explicitly underlying them in the minds of socialists politicians who determined foreign policy.
ANC would have looked a lot more like Hamas if the apartheid included putting every black person in a concentration camp for 70 years and randomly bombing them.
Who are you to judge humans that have been subjected to such a nightmare? To claim their fight is somehow tainted? This will end the moment Israel decides to take their boot off the neck of 2 million human beings.
Tbh, I’m not really sure what point you are making here (not trying to rude, so please feel free to clarify what the argument it).
Nowhere have I claimed that the Palestinian cause is tainted. Because I do not equate or identify the Palestinian movement with Hamas, and to do so is an external perspective.
You are correct that Israel bears ultimate responsibility for this. Yes the most important thing is that they stop the occupation. That’s not what this is about. Nor is it a judgment on the Palestinians or other Palestinian groups for feeling that they should, or have no choice but to, join a common front with Hamas. This is about perspective so that people don’t suddenly make the, frankly, stupid move of suddenly speaking of Hamas as if they are simply a progressive force. This is about recognizing that Hamas, precisely in virtue of who and what they are, will not be the ultimate force of Palestinian Liberation, and that in fact their interests are antithetical to it. The other groups also despise Hamas, and it’s important to ask why (not that they are necessarily great themselves). Because make no mistake, it is far from a given that these groups, let alone Palestinians in the West Bank or who are Arab Israeli citizens, are necessarily happy with this. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem also to be making the slip between ‘Hamas’ and ‘Palestinians’, when they are very far from the same thing. Do you think that every single Palestinian in Gaza is happy when they hear that Hamas has launched a new attack? It’s not that simple, even when, as we’ve seen, right now we see there is a display of general support among key groups, though again groups like the PA are also corrupt and do not speak for all Palestinians. But this is also as much a matter of maintaining legitimacy, because Hamas is dominant in Gaza and because now that Israel is launching a brutal attack and that it looks like they could be launching larger scale genocidal actions, especially once their military is more fully mobilized and they launch a ground operation into Gaza, there is naturally going to be a rallying against Israel, and that is justified, morally and politically.
Hamas were aware that that would happen. Hamas are perfectly aware that when they launch these kinds of attacks (made possible and caused ofc by Israel in the grand scheme of things), and Israel then attacks Gaza, this galvanizes support for them. Hamas are a product of Israel in more way than one. Also, and again, and I can’t stress this enough, as Islamists their political interests are not in the construction of a broad, radical, working-class movement which would launch another Intifada and force international powers to force Israel to a negotiating table to allow for a Palestinian state, as even if such a state were to be ruled by a national bourgeoisie, that would be preferable for the construction of Palestinian socialism to what they have now. Personally, i too would like a single, secular, state, but I also feel this is pie-in-the-sky idealism. Israel will never accept that, and neither will their imperialist backers. Nor will they accept a two state solution, as we know from their decades of sabotage of such an option. This is where my pessimism comes in, as the heydays of the secular Palestinian left of the 60s and 70s is gone, Israel is becoming more fascist by the day, and the main vehicle for armed opposition to Israel is Hamas. So I don’t see how this doesn’t even catastrophically. I don’t really see an opening for the left, except perhaps if a Palestinian left finds an opportunity to take prestige from Hamas, though the strength of religiosity makes this difficult, as does Hamas’ Islamism.
I feel like this is a point to try again to dispel some illusions some people are clearly in when they compare Hamas to groups like the ANC, the Vietcong. If anything they are like the FLN in Algeria. Now the FLN were completely fucked, vicious, ruthless and deeply reactionary, but they at least were attempting to construct a national bourgeois state with Islamist characteristics. I don’t think Hamas are even trying to do that honestly. And even if they were, they are not the ANC or the Vietcong, who were genuinely progressive movements of national liberation.
And again, it’s amazing to me that self-described communists are able to make the obvious realization that if ostensibly ‘communist’ groups like Sendero Luminoso or the Khmer Rouge, even when fighting anti-imperialist struggles (complicated in the case of the Khmer Rouge as they were supported clandestinely by the US for geopolitical Cold War reasons) or at least struggling to overthrow their national bourgeoisie, engage in widespread. Or to give another example: just because I support (or would have supported) unequivocally the Soviet struggle against Nazi Germany, would never in a trillion years say that the mass-sexual violence which occurred during the Soviet invasion of Nazi Germany was justified. That would be beyond depraved honestly, even though I understand that the men who did it had seen their country and families obliterated in the most depraved ways themselves. But revenge is not the basis of politics. That doesn’t mean it’s not always justified or permissible (like concentration camp survivors killing their guards), but I really don’t see how this is equivalent to killing children or unarmed workers intentionally.
Of course this situation is the result of where Palestinians have been pushed by Israel over the last 80 years. And yes. Intellectually I understand that. But that just a description. It’s not immediately a justification of anything. Nor does it establish by itself what the progressive form of political organization. For that the material conditions and the nature of the possible groups - such as Hamas - then has to be considered. I’m sure that if I saw my child die in front of my eyes due to an Israeli bomb, which I’m blessed enough to not have experienced, then I would want to do some pretty terrible shit to these people. Israeli guards and soldiers, when torturing Palestinians, have been known to joke that they’re like the Gestapo. It’s no surprise that this breeds desire for extremely violent retaliation. But jumping from that to what I’ve seen some people saying, namely ‘anything goes, the babies/kids have it coming’ or that that is politically or morally justified is a completely illogical leap no matter which way you spin it. And frankly that should be obvious. That is not a guide to thinking about what kind of political organization in Palestine is going to lead to Palestinian Liberation. In any case, I’m pretty sure that it’s not Hamas.
By-the-bye, the South African government did engage in militaristic repressions of its population, massacres, forced displacements, ethnic cleansing, torture, rape, terror, slavery. There was armed resistance, but the form this took was very different to Hamas. It was based on progressive movements, whereas Hamas is not.
Also, this is not a question about violence as such. Violence is necessary for the revolution. I wish it wasn’t but it is. When a Palestinian kills an Israeli soldier attacking their home, my heart cheers for them. But that’s not the same thing as an Islamist militant taking someone’s children hostage and raping and murdering the women. Hamas would cut our heads off in a heartbeat. And this is not an idle point that’s somehow irrelevant in some grand geopolitical third-worldist strategy. They are Islamists. They do not care about our revolution and their success, even Thinking the political math is that simple is naive. If it weren’t, then groups like the Khmer Rouge would have been justified. This is not an idle or moralistic point because not all forms of organization or methods are politically equal. Not least because the moral qualities they have does affect how politically effective they are going to be. The indiscriminate killing of unarmed women and children is not going to serve the cause of Palestinian Liberation. Now on the one hand I admit there’s a sense of comeuppance to the blowback Israel is seeing, such as at the attacked rave. The rave, with plenty of well-off Israelis who live off the fruits of apartheid, rolling on ecstasy next to an open-air prison camp - from which, apparently, the rave’s music could actually be heard - is obviously completely depraved. But this is cruel emotion of mine. Not a guide to politics or ethics.
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can’t blame Israel
i most certainly can. the instigator of violence always has the option to not continue and to make reparations. israelis are only targets for violence so long as they make life intolerable for palestinians.
Really? Your stance is “decolonization sounds complicated, let’s just let Israel genocide millions of people”? As other posters have said, send any dual citizens back to their country of origin, remove settlers from Palestinian land, end the siege of gaza, take down the wall and machine guns, prosecute IDF war criminals, and dissolve the criminal entity that is Israel. Will it be bloodless and free of violence? Of course not, I’m not naive, but the genocide of Palestinians will be much more bloody than any decolonization process
Well one option is they could get off the fucking land they stole and stop doing a genocide. Not sure why that option slipped your mind. Libs always trying to find hard solutions to simple problems.
It was Western powers that “gave” land that didn’t belong to them, and where other people already lived (and, of course, continue to support Israel). The Israeli government is not the only responsible party here.
It was the UN dividing the land between 1/3 jews and 2/3 muslims who were living there. It got voted 33-13 with most muslim countries voting against and 10 countries including Britain abstaining.
And go where?
considering a lot of them have second citizenships elsewhere…how about those places?
and before you get to “but there are nazis all over europe/etc, the jews need to be safeguarded!” i’m 100% with you. killing every nazi the world over is the correct solution here, not wiping out an innocent peoples.
considering a lot of them have second citizenships elsewhere…how about those places?
That only accounts for maybe 20-30% of the population these days. Most Israelis alive today were born in the country, not immigrants.
So again, where do they go?
Look at South Africa. One state for everyone, equal rights, equal votes. That thought will be so repellent to many that they would rather leave, and good riddance to them.
Not that I as some western internet rando have some unique insight into how things can/should be resolved, just the opposite: some of this is so obvious that even a distant and privileged dummy like me can see it
How about they move.out of the areas that Israel agrees are Palestine and into the areas they’re less blatantly stealing for a start. Your interjection is nonsensical when Israelis are, right now, seizing more and more from the Palestinians. Why is this "Where do they go? 😞 " question relevant only now and only one way? No one asked that question when the Palestinians were displaced, and now they’re just supposed to deal with that because it would suck for the colonizers to have to move back to where they came from? There are multigenerational refugees from Palestine, people whose parents and grandparents were also stateless refugees, and we’re supposed to feel bad for settlers? Fuck off.
Why is this "Where do they go? 😞 " question relevant only now and only one way?
Because someone specifically told me that every Israeli should just leave Israel?
Are you not following the converstation here?
I wonder, seen your username, are you by any chance living in North America? If you do, would you consider emigrating to give the land back to the Native Americans who the colonists stole it from (with a little jazzy genocide) ? Or do you consider the situation to be completely different?
So again, where do they go?
I don’t give a shit tbh. The state of Israel is a rogue state that shouldn’t be recognized by anybody and should never have existed. The settlers can either become refugees or rely on the mercy of Palestinians.
Hamas is extremist to the point where they would be doing a genocide as well if they were in the position to do so.
“the people being genocided would do the exact same thing if they come into power!” is just soft genocide denial. it’s colonizers telling on themselves, because that’s their solution to an unwanted indigenous populace.
People say separate the Hamas from the people, but that’s really hard when the members of Hamas are of the people and have the support of a good percentage of them.
israel was instrumental in destroying all non-hamas groups. their extremism is intentional, as it gives israel an excuse to continue doing genocide.
… But as the issue stands today, I can’t blame Israel in taking extreme action to end the conflict that’s dragged on for nearly a century now.
you…can’t blame the genocidal settler state for continuing to do a genocide in response to…people resisting the genocide they have been doing for 70 years?? are you fucking drunk?
That’s what makes the whole thing complicated, isn’t it?
Israel shouldn’t have existed to begin with and when it did, it shouldn’t have acted the way it has since its inception.
Yes, Israel is to blame for Hamas having power in Gaza today as well.
I’m not arguing that Israel isn’t a bad guy here.
What I’m arguing is I don’t see an alternative that doesn’t just kick the can down the road.
Irs not complicated. You are directly stating that the Israelis have to do genocide because its unrealistic that they don’t, and then asking us to think of the poor innocent israelis who may have to not live in a stolen home if they stop doing genocide.
what of the poor Germans who moved into the homes seized from Jews where would they go if we gave those homes back
Besides the vast majority of Israelis didn’t come from Germany anyways, so there shouldn’t be as much of a displacement.
I was actually just comparing what Israel is doing now to a policy of nazi Germany regarding racial redistribution of property
The vast majority of Israeli’s were born there at this point.
It’s not a stolen home to them. It’s the only home they’ve ever known.
They can move, you racist genocidal freak
And if somehow we have to accept that we can’t move any of them, they can stop preventing the Palestinians from moving home.
Israeli settlers have, for years now, been slowly encroaching into territory officially recognized as Palestinian lands. These people absolutely have the choice to move back out of those areas and into lands officially recognized as belonging to Israelis. On the other hand, very few people can “just move, lol” and I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel specifically chose settlers that would be burdened economically if they attempted to leave.
To be clear, Israel has continuously acted in bad faith against Palestinians and, along with its allies, destroyed the peaceful (or, at least, less militant) groups that sought to unite the Palestinians. This is absolutely a problem of their own making and I would be surprised if there was a peaceful path forward with the current political climate in the region.
If I steal 2 million dollars from you and hang on to it until I have children and give it to them, is that their money or is it still stolen?
This is where it gets tricky and a lot of nuance is lost, I think. There reaches a certain point where it stops being zero-sum because two or more parties can each have an entirely independent and valid claim.
In your example, if you pass the money to your children, they reach 40 years old, spending the money they believe is theirs, and then suddenly they’re told they owe $2M they don’t have for something they didn’t do, that’s not fair on them. Have they benefitted from the $2M? Absolutely. Is it fair that they benefitted while the person/people you stole it from suffered? Absolutely not. But your children didn’t do anything to deserve punishment.
Now I’m generally fairly anti-Israel, and have been for years, so don’t take this as me being an apologist for colonisers. But for someone who has lived all their life in Israel - whose great-grandparents were colonisers - Israel is home and they feel they have just as much right to it as the people it was stolen from 80 years ago. The longer these conflicts go on, the more difficult it is to come up with a fair solution on a human level.
Israel is definitely in the wrong, though. It’s very clearly not fair from a Palestinian perspective. But no matter how you try to divide up the land now, there will be innocent people who suffer for it. There’s no easy solution to it, unfortunately. It’s more complex than just “give it back”.
Decolonization is a bloody and violent process. Once you colonize a place and the people that live there, the only ways that it will end is the near-complete extermination of the colonized peoples by the colonizers, or decolonization. There can never be a lasting, peaceful status quo, as the interests of the colonized and the colonizers are inexorably opposed. The colonizer wants more of what is and was the colonized’s. The colonized want to keep their homes, and to not be subject to the colonizers. Both will use violence to achieve their ends.
The question of “how can peace be achieved in Palestine” is not “how can the current conflict be resolved,” but instead “should Palestinians be subject to ethnic cleansing, including violently and directly as occurred during the Nakba, or should Palestinians govern Palestine?”
Holy hell, liberals are at the point of nakedly and explicitly calling for genocide, by name.
I don’t know why people are bothering to give serious replies to trash like you. You belong in a ditch with a bullet in the head.
go re-watch the terrorism episodes of TNG and the Kira episodes of DS9 you ridiculous clown.
And there is no where that would accept the Gaza population as refugees even if you could get them to leave.
So what’s left?
Did you just end your lengthy support of Israeli genocide with “No one wants them anyway, so what else is there but to kill them?” Because it sure sounded like that.
Gaza doesn’t have any oil so nobody will help.
Why are they not sending wepons to Palestinians?
To what end?
This isn’t something Palestine can fight their way out of, however many weapons they have.Because Israel destroying HAMAS or Palestine doesn’t threaten EU. Yet.
What?
EU send incredible amount of weapons to Ukraine, citing repelling invasion. So even if we generously forget how most of their members were participating in invasion of iraq and Afghanistan, surelythey can send at least some weapons to Palestine?
- This is a far messier situation than ukraine being invaded, and 2) this literally just started. And multiple nations have spoken up about defending palestinians already.
I think it was mostly provocative. You know
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settlers aren’t innocent
Oh, but they did. Oopsy (2014)
The invasion of Iraq, bad as it was, never had the aim of annexing the country and destroy their culture language and identity. Never stole children. Etc.
never had the aim of annexing the country and destroy their culture language and identity. Never stole children. Etc.
That is a really stupid goalpost to stand by. The semantics you’ve drawn really do spell out “I only care about the invasion of Ukraine. Iraq and Gaza aren’t that bad.”
If you want to think that, you can.
Biden and the US have delivered and promises more military aid for Israel. What death toll do we want here? https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-speaks-with-israels-netanyahu-us-monitors-situation-2023-10-11/
Probably as much as possible, especially that Netanyahu is known for unhinged hate and slander for Palestinians and Biden now just repeats it after him.
Because the very same article shows the EU most certainly doesn’t like Hamas.
His condemnation of Israel’s behaviour came after three days of EU rhetoric that had focused on the “utterly inhuman … shocking … barbarous” nature of Hamas’ atrocities, while highlighting Israel’s rights rather than its obligations.
He pledged his staff would conduct a swift review of EU aid to Palestine to make sure no money ended up with Hamas via error or deception.
Stopping aid to ordinary Palestinians would be “the best present we could give to Hamas and it would jeopardise our interests and partnerships in the Arab world,” he added.
“We want to make sure that, beyond UNRWA, the EU budget does not get to any organisations which has any ties, any links to Hamas,” he said.
EU sending weapons is not a matter of who is defending or attacking, only a matter of who they like
Of course, i was (rhetorically) asking our resident EU shills which claims EU is follwing some kind of beningn international policy.
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Critical thinking is when you parrot literal IDF propaganda
The IDF isn’t even claiming this. They say there’s no evidence. That means if you repeat this, you are quicker to believe propaganda about Palestinians than the IDF.
Like clockwork, libs parroting the most blatant propaganda.
Just because you 100% bought into western media bullshit about WMD in Iraq and the incubator babies doesn’t mean you have to double down on the next round of obvious bullshit
Incubator babies?
Did you know that most modern devices come with a builtin filter app to detect Hamas propaganda, as per Israeli law? Press Alt-F4 to activate it
That only works on desktop. On mobile, you need to hold volume up and power, release when the device reboots, scroll to recovery mode using the volume keys, then choose factory reset
Is that before or after they throw them out of the incubators?
No, so that they can cut off deez nuts:
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Where are the sanctions then?
Sanctions are for non-whites.
Russia famously being an African nation.
Another galaxy brained hexbear take lol
Slavs are schrodinger whites in the eyes of the west. They can be called white when they die in a proxy war for US oligarchs, or may become even a proud second class citizens and earn some praise when colonized by the west and bootlicking it. But when they resist? Immediate reclassification to the “asian mongolic horde” status.
lets not get into are Jews white
Israelis and Zionists =/= Jews
that’s fair
I just recently learned Zionism isn’t actually a Jewish thing. Christian Zionism came before, they were the guys who did the crusades.
Also EU
Also Ursula
Clearly Palestinian untermensch aren’t really human in Ursula’s eyes
So was the blockade. and they did nothing about it . bunch of spineless hypocrites
- What is the EU going to do without the US’s approval? UN is out due to permanent security member’s veto power. Going against the USA means loss of a lot of things. Some of them crucial. They literally cannot do a single thing without losing a major thing that directly impacts their citizens.
Not everything is about the US, you know, EU-internal politics regarding Israel are quite complicated.
I don’t think we managed to officially ban products out of settlements yet but I don’t see them anywhere for the simple reason that they have to be labelled as settlement products, not “Made in Israel”. Israel threw a pretty fit over that, usually EU action (besides stern letters) takes the form of annoying the Israeli right by helping Palestinians.
Going against the USA means loss of a lot of things.
…none of which the EU can’t replace. We’ve been in plenty a trade war, you’re welcome to look up how those ended.
Seems to my like most Europe does not like Israel but they’d rather the jews there than back in Europe.
Just a guess, i cou I d be off by a mile…
We’d rather they’d understand rapprochement even half as well as we do.
Not everything is about trade wars. All it takes is for the US to say they will not follow NATO security agreements and follow through with that, and if you think that is not possible you haven’t paid attention to the shit show over here. It’s a serious problem and we are not fixing the holes that appeared in recent years.
The EU doesn’t need the US to defend itself – who’s going to invade? Russia? With what army?
Power projection is another thing but we don’t really want to do that anyways. And the French would rejoice they’d finally get their EU army project really going.
hypocrites?
Hasn’t this always been the case?
Israel has not been a shining example of virtue over the years. I’m not excusing the disgusting actions by the other side, where they are proved true, as some of the pictures have already been discounted, but this would only make Israel come down harder.
I don’t the have an answer, but what ever us happening now is certainly not it.
So you just want them to sit back and take their genocide laying down? Of course you do, because you don’t really support the Palestine struggle, you’re just clutching at pearls because the thought of the oppressed rising up scares you.
It is weird talking about a genocide against Israel, while they starve 2 million people.
And bomb refugee camps.
And kill ambulance drivers
Once again with feddit de users saying the literal exact opposite of what I just said and causing me to get 9 billion downvotes.
Why would anyone care about fake internet votes on meaningless comments? Weird thing to worry about.
if the comments are meaningless why are you reading them. If nothing here matters why are you here? go away
It’s less that i’m getting slammed and more that it’s not my fault that i’m getting slammed. Someone else mischaracterized what I said and it’s completely erased what I originally intended and replaced it with the exact opposite, and that’s what people are walking away with.
It started out by you misinterpreting the other guys message, so it’s fair I guess.
I think you are confused, Israel are the ones who are planning on carrying out genocide.
So you just want them to sit back and take their genocide laying down?
“Them” refers to the palestinians.
What the poster is arguing is that Israel incited the attack by years and years of oppression and forced displacement.
I don’t fully agree with that sentiment. I don’t condone the attack and blaming that on Israel alone is delusional, but I certainly will not “stand for Israel”. Genocide is not an appropriate response and the flimsy excuse of citing the recent attack as the trigger for moving forward with their long-standing plan of ethnic cleansing is despicable.
I’m not confused, that other guy was being bad faith. I even made it clear in my comment who was doing the genocide.
Not what I said at all.
Nobody wins here. Parading mutilated corpses and taking hostages is not ‘supporting the struggle’ though.
I agree that civilian death is always bad but the Palestinians have tried every course they can and they’re still being choked to death, at some point violence is self defense
I totally agree, I’m not cutting Israel any slack here - their treatment of Palestine has been awful - and if they weren’t so chummy with USA it’d be a different story. But parading mutilated corpses in the streets etc? There’s no excuse. Whatever side you’re on.
Wait! I know what Borrell will do: expel Israel from Eurovision! That will serve them right and start behaving!
I don’t expect much more from anything leaded by Borrell. We know him well in Spain.
Wtf is israel in Eurovision?
Because they’re an EBU member and the EBU includes the whole Mediterranean, have a map. The reason the Arab states don’t compete in Eurovision isn’t because they’re not allowed to, but because Israel participates. Morocco and Lebanon even are founding members, Israel joined in 1957 (look under “past members” Israel switched organisations in 2017).
Australia got special dispensation to participate even though they’re only an associated member because they’ve been nuts about the contest for ages, constantly hitting very high viewer numbers.
Australia was allowed to participate as a special guest to celebrate the contest’s 60th anniversary. People there liked it and ESC was like “whatever, you may stay”.
It was like hiring a band for your birthday party, but they turn out to be fun people to have around, so you let them stay after their show.
That’s true but the reason they were invited in the first place is because they’ve been steady fans since 1983. They got a commentary booth in 2012, airtime to fawn in 2013, and then the special guest band in 2014 ah heck here’s the link. It wasn’t a random thing, besides Australia Eurovision isn’t a thing anywhere outside of Europe.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yes, and Australia is as well. :D
For some reason they are members of the European broadcasting union
By just having the power to cut water, electricity and food to other ethnic should ring you a fucking bell deep to your throat about the problem!!!
The same people that claim to love ““FREEDOM”” are the same people calling actually real freedom fighters terrorists.
If killing a bunch of women and children is freedom fighting then this world is fucked.
Yeah clearly killing women and children is defense, that’s why it’s called the IDF
Listen, the children are victims (women get IDF training same as men though so lol) but they are victims of Israel. Dont put children on the front line of a settler colonial project.
The Hatians killed their masters. Was that wrong?
in the cases where ‘their masters’ was a middleschooler, yes
What kind of parents choose to bring their children to live on stolen land in a war zone?
this might be controversial, but in my opinion killing children is bad regardless of where you do it
Number of Palestinian children killed: 365 children. And I bet the number from Israel is way lower.
spread over the past 2 decades the actual number is closer to 2000
and that is reprehensible because killing kids is bad
and you dont have to bet, israel can keep count of their victims a lot better, we have a relatively accurate idea of how many there are
and that is reprehensible because killing kids is bad
Killing children is bad indeed which is why the occupation must end. All violence in Palestine comes from there. If you don’t want the violence of decolonisation, don’t commit the atrocities of colonisation.
The children didn’t exactly have a choice when their parents chose to be settlers.
which is why those children are victims of their parents and their government
Youre talking a big game for someone whos never been enslaved (or held in an open air prison).
i wasnt aware that ‘dont kill kids’ was big game, i will strive to be better in the future
Listen, I’m not happy about the death of kids either, I’m just saying that revolutions are never, ever clean because violence breeds violence and these people are angry and hopeless and you cant abandon the cause of the oppressed because of excesses. The oppressor has killed way more kids and will continue to if they’re not stopped. Like its really easy to talk from your high horse of privilege and judge revolutionary movements and tut tut but at the end of the day it comes down to what you actually care about. Because way more kids are going to be killed if the genocide of Palestinians isn’t stopped. And that includes Israeli kids because the Palestinians are going to fight back and they aren’t always going to be perfect victims about it. Israel can stop this at any time.
this implies that you actually think hamas killing kids was A) necessary for stopping the butchering of palestinians, and B) had any chance of stopping the butchering of palestinians in general, as opposed to giving israel the perfect excuse to start carpet bombing with no restraint. it didnt stop the genocide, there arent fewer casualties and there never were going to be, this was always going to accelerate the conflict towards a full-blown ethnic cleansing- thats probably why Israel did nothing to stop it despite having been warned by neighouring intelligence ahencies beforehand
and yes, it is easy for me to talk from my ivory tower, and im aware that these folks dont have the privilege of debating this shit as opposed to living it, and just quitting out the app when theyre tired of it, the same way any other conflict is a lot easier to judge from afar
im not calling them monsters* or subhuman, im not implying they deserve what theyre getting or that this is anything less than a crime against humanity
killing kids is bad, regardless of how justified it felt for them
*barring the actually openly sadistic shit, such as the fucks who raped their victims ‘in the name of a free palestine!’
so are you going to sanction them or?
