On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Likewise