The Israel Defense Forces releases surveillance camera footage from Shifa Hospital showing Hamas terrorists bringing a Nepali and Thai citizen who were abducted from Israel on October 7 to the medical center.
Can we yet dispense with the fiction that hamas is fighting some just war?
Hiding behind civilians and intentionally using their deaths as propaganda is terrible.
Also, free palestine, fuck hamas, fuck likud, fuck Iran, and fuck Russia.
I don’t think anyone is saying the war is just but rather relatable. If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
You’d sneak into their villages and go door to door killing thousands of innocent people in their homes? And do the same to young people at a music festival?
I think we can all relate to resistance, but this is something else.
The protagonists in the Old Testament do exactly that more than once with less provocation, and millions of people still consider them the good guys. Israel’s PM in particular has specifically cited one of them as a model to emulate. Look up his comment about Amalek.
So yes, a lot of people would do that, and the people in charge of this massacre in particular would definitely do that given a chance. Or, you know, you can look at the fact that they basically are doing that right now, just with bombs rather than small arms.
You know you’re on the moral high ground of relatability when your evidence comes from the fucking Old Testament. Like when your morality comes from 4000+ years ago, wow, that’s some good shit right there. Hold my beer, I’m about to say that I read slavery is ok in the Old Testament. Watch as I drive down to Whole Foods with a net gun and get myself some laborers from the produce isles. It’s ok because they wear multiple kinds of cloth at the same time, and I saw one pick up a lobster so he can definitely be my chattel. There goes one holding hands with his partner, give me a minute while I righteously smite them in the name of my lord; pour out some salt for them!
Man, you suck at reading comprehension. I’m using the Old Testament as an example of what people believe, not a source of factual information. You understand those are different things, right?
Dude you suck at reading comprehension because that’s exactly what I addressed in my comment. If one’s belief system is actually based in or otherwise aligned with the Old Testament, their opinion is invalid and they are morally bankrupt.
The Old Testament is so fucking brutal and devoid of morality, that 2000 years ago people started Christianity just to get away from its brutality; that was literally the appeal of jesus. To say “god did a take back and the world doesn’t have to be so brutal”.
A. Isrealis have been doing that for the better part of 50 years.
B. Sure, that’s abborant but yeah I think we can all picture being so frustrated and stuck you lash out at whatever is nearby.
It’s resistance, resistance has never been pretty not even when proto Israeli terrorists were bombing civilian targets in 1946 and hiding weapons and fighters in schools, hospitals and temples.
u call raping women and burning babies a “resistance”?
Yep I’m sure that’s what they’d say. You know how the Indians drove out the British and ended their apartheid state? By shooting people at electronic music festivals and committing necrophilia and by killing babies.
Same thing in South Africa actually in the 80s: they killed white babies, and shot white South Africans at electronic music festivals.
Oh and don’t forget Martin Luther King Jr. in the USA. He actually personally attended electronic music festivals and killed his fellow Americans, regularly. He had a huge kill-count. The tunnels he dug beneath hospitals are fucking legendary, all school children learn of his wanton murder during the civil rights movement, and we venerate him for it. Every chance he got, he called for the extermination of white people, and of Jews, and of Asian people too. That’s how he became a fucking hero. Never tried to unite people together, not even once. Americans are so fucking proud that he sewed division and hate, and killed people all the damn time. That’s why he has a street in every single major city in the USA and in other places too.
You’d become a hardline religious extremist, torture your own people, and massacre civilians in cold blood?
Weird thing to admit to man.
I’m not religious so no, and I made no mention of religion. Israel was forged by hard-line religious extremists as well but is technically a secular nation.
You should look into every revolution on earth, 98% of which will include religious extremists. Your point is idiotic, the American revolution had religious extremists lol.
Hamas is explicitly a jihadist regime. Do you… not know that?
I do know that. I don’t think it matters the reason they’re fighting if it’s the same effect either way.
If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
???
You’re being tedious. You know what I meant and notably hamas is not the only dog in this fight buddy. The narrative is it’s hamas because they’re religious extremists and it tends to discount the fact that regardless of their intent or reasoning the effect is the save, armed defense of Gaza. Without hamas the place would have been annexed 30 years ago.
shows u have no clue what ur talking about. Israel wasn’t forged by religion extremists, on contrary. I will never understand people like u who talk with such confidence about matters they have no clue about.
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nice personal attack, maybe because facts are not at your side? fake news, half truths, and propoganda is all I get from u. good luck with that I’m out
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Where is Gaza’s military allowed to be?
Certainly not at Israeli music festivals
Well, what was “Gaza’s military” doing outside of Gaza committing torture, rape, infanticide and murder on 1,200 civilians?
How many Gaza civilians does Israel get to kill in retaliation?
100? 1000? 2000? 5000? 10,000? We’re still not at the actual number that have been killed just since Oct 7th, by the way. If killing 1200 Israelis is bad why is killing 15,000 Palestinians just shit that happens that everyone should just get over?
cuz idf isn’t going out of their way to kill civilians. else they would’ve levelled gaza instantly.
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With their current numbers they would need to kill 3 million Palestinians in Gaza to wipe out Hamas.
There are 2.2 million in Gaza.
They’re actual doing worse than possible.
You’re just lying. Not even Israel claims Hamas killed 1200 civilians. That number includes active duty military and police.
Trying to break the walls of their open air prison thats killing everyone inside.
And bear in mind the reports of torture and rape are just accusations from an occupying military.
Which open air prison are you talking about?
The restrictions taken in place by Egypt and Israel were inevitable due to the presence of terrorist groups and the complete radicalization of the country. Many tend to blame Israel for the situation in Gaza but if the population there were peace-loving individuals, they definitely wouldn’t have so bad relationships with Egypt.
If they were peace loving they would have been killed off long ago like the hundreds of thousands of palestinians Israel drove out in the name of their religion.
The radical religious terrorist group is Israel
Hamas built that prison, when they tried to overthrow the Jordanian and Egyptian governments while also calling for the genocide of Israel.
There’s a reason people are stuck in Gaza and that reason is entirely Hamas.
Gaza or specifically Hamas controlled Gaza doesn’t have a military, they’re quite literally banned from having one.
Can you get me a definition for military that Hamas doesnt fall under? Theyre definitely armed forced of a country.
They’re a military force, they aren’t a standing military but difference.
You, me, and the guy i was responding to said military
Yes, my point is they’re not allowed in Gaza at all, weapons are technically illegal there and if Israel catches you with one you’re pretty likely to be shot or rapidly made multipart.
This is goddamn insane, imagine Russia trying to tell Ukraine theyre not allowed to have a military. Of course the genociders dont want their victims armed. Tell Israel theyre not allowed to have a military
So a whopping 2 hostages on the day of the attack, of which one was critically injured, which was more than a month ago.
Definitely Hamas HQ confirmed. Was worth all that civilian collateral to capture.
At least they finally got some footage so we don’t have to rely on some crappy IDF PS1 graphics renders.
There are more than two hostages. They’ve already found one of the previous hostages dead near the hospital grounds.
Wait until more footage comes through
A dead person near a hospital?!? Say it ain’t so doc, people can’t die at hospitals of all places. Everyone knows Dairy Queen is the place to take a hostage for medical care.
That person was one of the hostages. don’t you find that a little suspicious that one of the hostages was found dead outside the hospital grounds?
If a hostage is injured where would you take them? The supermarket? There’s a lot of odd shit going on but injured people taken to the hospital is not it.
They drove past multiple hospitals to get to this one because this one is where their main tunnel base was.
Much smaller ones without trauma wards on the same par. They’ve been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best and which ones have Israeli sympathizers as well. Why exactly they chose that hospital we do not know but what we can say is so far the evidence of a centre of gravity are extremely weak.
Ed: similarly they’ve shown one unbooby trapped, unguarded tunnel without tons of boot prints. And moreover the video is not off anything being cleared and has it’s location removed.
i generally also drive past hospitals that dont deal with detached legs when my leg is detached
I generally
… How often does your leg detatch?
thats funny, i was under the impression that ‘outside hospital grounds’ distinctly does not mean ‘on hospital grounds’
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Definetly worth the collatral and the casulties. Hiering a hitman doesent make you inoccent.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
Press Freedom Rank: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
This needs to be a bot, this is great context around the media outlets.
It’s really not. MBFC is run by a single guy. It’s methodology is basically worthless. It’s basically one dude’s opinion on what news sources he likes to read.
What do we know about that guy? Not much. He happens to share the same name as a very prominent lawyer/professor, which makes finding details about him very challenging.
Quit spreading FUD. It’s not just one guy, the founder has a whole team listed on the website and a clear methodology. It’s in the about section.
You’re just salty because the website isn’t super pro Chinese Communist Party.
Have you looked at their methodology? It wouldn’t pass a basic university-level writing course.
Yea I have. It’s 100% fine.
You just don’t like the results.
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These are the guys that instantly posted the MRI machine weapons and the calendar. They’re just an IDF propaganda source nothing credible about them.
it’s funny that u think IDF knows or care about lemmy
I’m talking about “the times of israel” which is straight up a right wing israeli propaganda site. Nothing credible about them
Ah my bad. If I may ask just out of curiosity, what sites do u consider to be “credible” and not a “propaganda sites”?
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital. “These findings prove that the Hamas terror organization used Shifa Hospital on the day of the massacre itself as terror infrastructure,” the IDF says.
TIL bringing a wounded civilian in for treatment makes the treating hospital “terror infrastructure”.
Further images released by the IDF from the surveillance cameras at Shifa show Hamas terrorists inside the hospital, and outside the rooms of the hostages, as well as stolen IDF vehicles brought to the medical center.
It wasn’t a wounded person that was the problem.
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
You’re going to just disagree with the IDF spokesman here?
Okay, let’s say you’re a cop and you have an injured prisoner but no car. You grab a vehicle off the street and bring the guy to the nearest hospital. You don’t want your prisoner to escape, so you stand guard outside the room while he’s getting treated, then take him into custody.
You see the problem here? In one viewpoint, it’s a soldier responsibly getting treatment for a prisoner; in another viewpoint, the entire hospital complex had enemy soldiers in it at some time and therefore deserves to be razed to the ground.
Now substitute prisoner with kidnapped hostage you have no right to touch and that you most likely shot yourself.
Yes perception is a thing, way to rephrase their point in a much dumber way.
The police all over the world shoot people all the time and then bring them to the hospital to get fixed. There’s nothing suspicious about it.
And yet that still doesn’t make that hospital a Hamas HQ and hence the deaths due to the IDF attack on it justified…
If some mob guy shoot some person to teach him a lesson and then brough them to the hospital, that would not in any universe make the hospital a “Mob HQ” and justify a military attack on it killing civilians and medical personnel.
The wounded guy? Sure thing. But the other one didn’t seem to be too injured to be taken to a hospital for treatment
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
They were both wounded
If you take two prisoners and don’t want to split up your forces, then you bring both of them to the hospital, get the injured one treated, and take both of them away.
Dude’s never broken a bone and it shows
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The IDF’s lying track record is bad.
If only impartial middle ground existed.
Which one? Name them 😌
Maybe time of Israel and Hamas Daily Journal aren’t where you should go for impartiality during a conflict between Israel and Hamas.
Name them. 👻 All barking no a single name
Edit: confirmed, this sub only has fools lurking. No knowledge all barking.
Peoples World and CGTN
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You see, the problem is that you’re trying to apply logic and reasoning.
If they’re releasing surveillance footage, expect more to come out. They have already announced that Noa Marciano was executed inside the hospital - most likely on camera.
Also note that they are sharing much more with the US and EU than they are making public. It will likely include surveillance footage tagged with facial recognition of every senior Hamas member who walked through the hospital.
The dumbest part is that it says one hostage was brought to the hospital to be killed.
Bro just kill her in whatever tunnel you’re in… Why drag her to the hospital?
Is this according to the same Israel that called a water reservoir an “opening into the Hamas tunnels?”
The same one that released a faked video of a “nurse from al-Shifa?”
To be fair, Al Jazeera is blatantly anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t trust their analysis without other corroborating sources. Regardless, the evidence the IDF presented for that particular video was far from conclusive, so it’s certainly possible that particular entrance wasn’t to the Hamas tunnel network.
I also don’t doubt that nurse video is fake, but the source of the video is far from definitive. Many parties in this conflict benefit from muddling the waters with fake videos.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind? If the facts are valid, they’re valid regardless of what the spin being put on them is.
Gee, I sure wonder why Al Jazeera would be anti-Israel…
Bias needs to be taken into account, but it does not invalidate good reporting on its own. It’s the same reason I don’t immediately believe all statements from the IDF. They are a party in the conflict and extremely biased. They are however a valuable source of information and their claims should be considered. I would also rank the credibility of the IDF over the credibility of Hamas.
The IDF, as I’ve shown, has zero journalistic integrity. If Hamas starts to spread verifiably fake videos to Western audiences, I’ll discredit them too.
You’re miles up shit creek and so all you see is shit. You’re stuck comparing a nice big long shit to a gloopy one. Paddle down a bit and maybe you’ll get some clear water for once.
You don’t have to look far for fake Hamas videos. Are you kidding? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120978
Hamas bombed their own hospital and then said the IDF did it and everyone ate it up
Saying you blindly believe Hamas, a known terrorist organization that says that all Jews worldwide should be wiped out, is really taking the mask off. You should be ashamed of yourself. It’s fine to assume Israel lies, but to blindly trust Hamas is truly moronic. I hope you wake up to reality one day
Not a great example. All recent reporting was that the hospital you’re talking about was hit by a Hezbollah rocket, not Hamas. Not surprising that Hamas would assume, after concluding it wasn’t them, that it was the IDF, and it not be an outright lie.
Other comment got reported, but still doesn’t change the fact that you’re comparing two bad sources and trying to pick one that’s less bad.
If Hamas starts releasing verifiably false videos to Western audiences, then I’ll discredit that too.
If Hamas starts releasing verifiably false videos to Western audiences, then I’ll discredit that too.
Are the countless numbers of staged videos not verifiably false enough for you? They literally operate a filming crew making victim propaganda.
I’m honestly confused because the original article just says Hamas was seen taking one of the hostages to the hospital. Isn’t that a good thing like hey they are trying to make sure these people don’t die?
Wouldn’t it be better to not murder, rape and kidnap a couple thousand innocent civilians in the first place?
I mean, come on man… You’re acting as if taking two kidnapped Israeli citizens to hospital overshadows how they got into that situation in the first place.
Yeah I completely agree with your sentiment your talking about both sides right? I’m saying that it makes no sense to bomb a hospital if your enemy is taking the hostages there the get healed unless you don’t care about the hostages and just want to kill Palestinians.
Your point is moot as far as I’m concerned. Don’t take mother fucking hostages in the first place…
Yeah I agree with both sides. You realize Israel has been arresting children simply because someone said they picked up a rock or said free Palestine. Sounds like both sides are taking hostages.
Yeah . Because Hamas apparently were treating prisoners humanely.
I can see why humane treatment of prisoners and outsiders can seem crazy to some countries, but it is a rule of war.
Aw hell, just add it to the list of ignored rules.
They are not prisoners, they were kidnapped civilians that makes them hostages.
… who are then taken … say it with me … prisoner.
Yeah, to us they’re hostages, sure. But if every citizen of the other nation happens to be a reservist after their gap year of service, they’re unarmed ‘enemy’ soldiers on extended leave.
I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle and can’t be so simply decided on the outside by people who sleep soundly at night.
Hamas held old ladies and children hostage, no one would call them soldiers, they held foreign citizens hostage, again no confusing them with IDF soldiers, even Hamas calls them hostages.
So then they shouldn’t be given medical care?
How do you make the leap from kidnapped civilians should be called hostages to anything about medical care for the hostages.
Anything to paint Hamas as the good guys… It boggles the mind.
the hostages were in the hospital that got bombed?
I hope they’re okay…
Yes, they were trying to free them, obviously.
This will hopefully put to rest any notion that Hamas hasn’t been using civilian infrastructure as shields.
Isn’t this just bringing in wounded hostages for treatment? What do you expect hostage takers to do with wounded hostages exactly?
No, it fucking isn’t. They weren’t there for treatment.
What I expect from hostage takers is brutality, murder, and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is what they did. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously as a government, and not what they are - a terrorist organization that is as bad, if not worse, for Palestinians as the oppression from Israel - then I expect something else: NOT TAKING HOSTAGES.
Lol, nobody’s saying they’re a proper government. Everyone agrees they’re terrorists. All I’m saying is that a hospital treating hostages doesn’t make it part of a terrorist entreprise.
They weren’t there for treatment. They were there for the tunnels, into which they forcibly dragged those hostages. Who are dead now.
From the article:
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital
And
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
So, you’re wrong about both assertions. The IDF themselves say they were both wounded, and that after treatment they were moved to a different location. The source also doesn’t indicate they’re both dead now, you’re just making shit up.
OK, I’ll take my lumps. You’re right, I missed that when I skimmed the article. I was wrong.
That said, this is still a situation in which Hamas injured two civilians, abducted them, forcibly dragged one of them into a hospital that is now clearly known to have been at least partially a Hamas front, and is still holding them against their will (assuming they are still alive). The fact that they aren’t known to have committed the final atrocity - yet - to these two hostages does not magically make them the good guys in this.
Hamas are not the good guys. That doesn’t make the hospital the bad guys, and it doesn’t make everyone in Gaza complicit. Your inability to separate different actors in this scenario is limiting your perspective and objectivity.
Nobody’s calling Hamas the good guys. We’re pushing back on the narrative that the hospital itself is somehow involved and thus exempt from the normal protections in war.
Hospitals will treat anyone that comes in by default, and in the case of a Gazan hospital, what choice would they even have anyway? You can’t call the authorities if Hamas are the (de facto) authorities. You treat the hostage and get them to GTFO as fast as possible before you get bombed.
You are falling for the IDF narrative that says all Palestinians are Hamas, as if they have any kind of choice in the matter.
I some mob enforcer shot some guy “to teach him a lesson” and then brough him to a Hospital so that he wouldn’t die, would that make the Hospital a “Mob HQ” and justify a military attack on it that killed innocents being treated and working there?!
There is no such thing as Guilt By Association except in the “they’re all the same” of racist-logic, so one wonders how exactly anybody who is not a racist could ever go from “IDF video of Hamas bringing hostages for treatment in a Hospital” to “This justifies the IDF’s military attack on that hospital and associated civilian deaths”.
What do you think POWs are if not hostages?
POWs are SOLDIERS. Jesus fucking Christ, how the hell do you sleep at night? These hostages? They’re civilians. They’re you. They’re me. They’re just people, and Hamas stole them out of their country and is forcing them to stay with them.
Defending that is sick.
Israel is not the good guys here, either. The oppression they’ve inflicted on Gaza is terrible. But that can be true at the same time as it’s true that abducting civilians - after murdering a whole bunch of them - is also terrible.
You do know that according to Israel half of the hostages are soldiers, right?
You do know that means half of them aren’t, right?
Jesus Christ, stop with the apologetics for kidnapping and murdering civilians! You can criticize Israel’s response without trying to make what Hamas did - and is still doing - acceptable.
Let them die duh
Let them continue bombing and terrorizing Israel then huh
Wait, now the hostages are part of Hamas as well?
Even if it’s true, I can’t believe anything Israel says at this point.
If there is a Hamas bunker under a hospital it was built with the full knowledge and support of netenyahu.
If you’re a fellow American, please stop weighing in on this whole thing. We shouldn’t be propping up Israel to begin with. We shouldn’t be involved in this at all.
Our support of Israel was certainly factored into Hamas’s decision to escalate things. And the blowback we’ll get from unconditionally supporting Israel is completely, COMPLETELY predictable.
Covid gave us an opportunity to turn the page on the war on terror, and now our unwavering support for one side of this conflict is going to prompt some yahoo to commit something stupid, and start the war on terror up all over again.
There is no upside in supporting one side over the other in this one - we need to sit it out. Stop sending billions to Israel every year and providing a pretext for some sort of revenge attack on us. Saudi doesn’t care what we think anymore, OPEC is going to do whatever it wants.
The US foreign affairs community seems to be of the opinion that our involvement in Israel and its recognition by KSA or any other big player in the region is going to secure the status of the petrodollar. But de-dollarization is going to happen anyway, thanks to BRICS.
So we’ll continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia while they continue to not supply us with enough oil to keep prices low, and we’ll continue to prop up Israel while they continue to piss off the entire region.
And everyone is just… okay with this?
And everyone is just… okay with this?
No, I’d like to see more US intervention, pretty much worldwide. Isolationism is stupid and destructive.
But de-dollarization is going to happen anyway, thanks to BRICS.
Lmao no
There is no US and Israel. There is only US-Israel.
Israel is an extension of US foreign policy. The politics between them is all theatre. All Americans are culpable for its actions.
