• grue@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    You know, if you use Linux you don’t have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?

    • qyron@sopuli.xyz
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      7 months ago

      Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I’m anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.

      Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.

      The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.

      Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.

    • milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
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      7 months ago

      Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?

      The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it’s just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.

      “You see, if only you’d installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that’s why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn’t want to upset you more - in the terminal output…”

      • Justin@lemmy.jlh.name
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        7 months ago

        Most Linux developers don’t include anti-features on purpose, but Windows developers do.

        I think dependencies have gotten simpler on Linux with flatpak. The fact that the command-line is still sometimes needed on Linux is just a fact of life. Nobody is forcing users to use it out of any sort of passive-aggressive distain for users, but just that it takes less time out of volunteer developers’ schedules to buold command-line tools.

        I think one thing to note in the CLI-GUI debate though is that Windows pushed hard against CLI interfaces from day 1. Even starting with Windows 3, there were a lot of things you couldn’t do with CLI easily, while Unix has always had full CLI support. Users being unfamiliar with CLI interfaces is a symptom of Windows dominance.

          • Azzu@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            I mean it’s so logical, I have real troubles figuring out why so many people don’t get it.

            You can’t immediately see what options you have in a command line.

            In a UI, you see the “menu” button right there.

            If you have no idea about anything, in a UI, you can still click on the menu button, and are presented with more options.

            In a command line, if you have absolutely no clue, what do you need to do? Honestly, you have to ask someone who knows (be it a friend, a manual, or web search). You can randomly start typing or press keys, but the chance to get to something useful is very low.

          • Adanisi@lemmy.zip
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            7 months ago

            Why do people always assume GNU+Linux relies on a command line these days!? That’s like saying Windows does… I.e. it’s not true. Maybe if you go back to the Win9x and DOS days.

            I swear, if you’re going to complain about possibly the only OS that fully respects users and their freedom, how about you actually use it first and understand it’s GUI mechanisms before spouting nonsense.

            Windows is dominant because of extreme anti-competitive and other nasty practices in the past. The reason it’s still dominant is because it has locked itself into it’s dominant position since people are used to it (they still do many nasty practice’s today, as well)

            • Dave.@aussie.zone
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              7 months ago

              That’s like saying Windows does… I.e. it’s not true. Maybe if you go back to the Win9x and DOS days.

              I don’t think you’ve seen the number of power user articles these days that give you two options :

              • Wade through 27 levels of keys and subkeys in regedit, create this dword, then stop and start this inscrutably-named service, or
              • Run this one line command in PowerShell.
                • Dave.@aussie.zone
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                  7 months ago

                  It’s was definitely one of those “seemed like a good idea at the time” kinda things, but now they’ve realised they’ve created a monster.

        • Grass@sh.itjust.works
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          7 months ago

          I use command line by choice on Linux, but find myself forced to use PowerShell to make a windows installation that is somewhat bearable.

        • milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          any sort of passive-aggressive distain for users,

          Yeah, I don’t mean from the devs - though part of the community can be a bit like that sometimes. But the computer itself…

          I may have been anthropomorphizing, with a touch of experience-induced poetic imagination.

      • Rosco@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It’s been a while since I’ve encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.

        • milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          Agreed. Though I do have recent experiences of dependency troubles. I really should get better at reporting them to the proper channels, but by the time I’ve worked out how to fix, I usually don’t have the energy left… 😕

          • KnifeFighter@feddit.uk
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            7 months ago

            You realize that 16 means 2016, right? That’s almost 8 years ago. And even as someone who uses Linux I don’t like Ubuntu. I highly recommend trying Mint, Fedora, or EndeavourOS (Arch)

      • tabular@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        There’s a difference between feeling abused from intentional mistreatment and then there’s frustration from miscommunication or inadequacy from either partner.

    • Octopus@thelemmy.club
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      7 months ago

      And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.

      BTW for anyone needing help in the future, this worked: https://youtu.be/X41PlQNx0vk

      • Aatube@kbin.social
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        7 months ago

        As a user who bought FG on steam, I had ZERO issues whatsoever getting this to run on my Walmart laptop. This is an Epic issue. Fuck Epic. Ran Fall Guys into the ground before laying off basically all of its creative team. It’s just a grind now…

      • Communist@lemmy.ml
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        7 months ago

        This isn’t much of a hoop, you install wine and run the installer with it, furthermore, I’d rather deal with the kind of hoop that isn’t actively harming you intentionally any day.

        • Octopus@thelemmy.club
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          7 months ago

          It was not easy. Other guides didn’t work, I had to find it, and also do or, so it took like 1 and a half hour.

          • Communist@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            My advice is honestly, just use steam, it’s largely a better experience anyway. I don’t think fall guys is exactly necessary. That’s a very self-imposed hoop, i’d get it if it was critical work, or if there were no alternatives, but, steam is a perfect experience.

            It’s epics job to support linux, not linux’s job to support epic.

            • Azzu@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              You ignore the reality though that even though it might be “epics job” to support Linux, it’s still the user’s problem right now if you want to play Fall Guys with your friends.

              And you can’t just say “playing Fall Guys is not exactly necessary”. Social connections are very important to humans, being one of a group to not be able to participate in a shared activity can be socially isolating. Of course that’s a completely different topic you could argue about if it should be like this, but you can only dismiss it as not necessary for yourself, not as not necessary in general, for others.

              If you use Windows, it works immediately, if you use Linux, you have to spend the time and do whatever that guy did. This is a very real cost for the user, time is one of the most precious things we have.

              Of course you can argue about if it is worth it, but in the end people assign different value to things. If playing Fall Guys is very important to someone and it takes more time to do on Linux than on Windows, then Linux loses value. And this situation is not a single instance. People mostly only do what is the best for them in particular, and using less time to do the things they want to do is a prime example for this.

              • Communist@lemmy.ml
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                7 months ago

                Fall guys is not the only game, nearly all of steam works flawlessly. So meh, and it is epics job to fix that. Play any other game on steam, fall guys isn’t important at all for the vast vast majority of users.

            • burliman@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              You do realize how much money Microsoft spends to make games work well on Windows, right? It is absolutely the responsibility of the OS to ensure smooth experience across many apps and services. This attitude right here is why Linux plays second fiddle to Windows still.

              • Communist@lemmy.ml
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                7 months ago

                and yet nearly everything on steam works flawlessly.

                It is absolutely the job of app devs to support the platform, I have no idea why you would believe otherwise, and as far as gaming is concerned I genuinely believe the only place linux loses on steam is anticheat, which isn’t a matter of linux side support. Do you have an example?

        • ezchili@iusearchlinux.fyi
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          7 months ago

          Any advanced user will face dozens of hoops a month on Linux

          It’s never the simple things, nor the very difficult things. It’s small, niche workflows & use cases of your computer that you “sometimes” do, like, I don’t know, editing a PDF, installing shareX or an equivalent that can take a screenshot and upload it to imgur / run OCR on a part of your screen, running a Space Engineers server for your friends, running SSEEdit.exe to dump the contents of a potion overhaul mod in Skyrim and calculate which are the best ingredients to plant in your Skyrim greenhouse and garden for maximizing gold output.

          No need to look up ways to do any of those, I’ll get different ones next week, and then more the week after.

          You know, the millions of things that no one ever does except that guy in 2019 on StackExchange, but that you will have to do and then never again.

          • Communist@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            I face yearly hoops at most and I have supported many users, the vast majority of people have little to no trouble, and the cases you describe are either niche, one time setups, or bizarre things nearly nobody does.

            I maintain that the vast majority of users will face fewer issues on linux than windows, these are all insanely edge cases.

            • ezchili@iusearchlinux.fyi
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              7 months ago

              It doesn’t matter that they are one time setups, the question is how many one time setups will you have to do in a year, year over year?

              Same for “insanly edge cases” (editing a pdf, lol), the question is how likely are you to encounter an edge in your daily life?

              When there’s a one-in-a-million chance to encounter a defect but there’s millions of them, it just becomes likely.

              Turns out the world is made of a lot of edges for some advanced users.

              • Communist@lemmy.ml
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                7 months ago

                Editing a pdf works perfectly, yes edge cases occur, but by definition they are not the norm, and edge cases would be resolved by more people using it anyway, and I can still easily recommend it for most people.

          • Communist@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            Do you actually believe windows doesn’t harm users intentionally? Wait until you hear how they spy on you.

            • burliman@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              Don’t care, I block it. Doesn’t mean it’s not superior to Linux for a gaming platform.

              • tabular@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                “I have to guard against my partner hitting me, doesn’t mean they’re not better at playing tennis”

              • Communist@lemmy.ml
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                7 months ago

                Linux in a huge number of cases performs better than windows, and the only place where windows seems to win these days is anti-cheat, which is malware. Windows is certainly better when it comes to allowing users to install malware, but that’s really about it.

      • burliman@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Anyone who makes a stand to defend Linux as a gaming platform over Windows is righteously impractical at best, and a principled idiot at worst. It’s simply not there yet.

    • zeroxxx@lemmy.my.id
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      7 months ago

      In that same Linux I had to rack my brain and still failed to launch the game I want.

      You mean like that relationship?

      Sure Linux has its own pros, but not what I need.

      • Huschke@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I used to think the same and sure there are still definitely games that won’t work, but gaming on Linux has come a loooong way. And with the recent bullshit that Microsoft is pulling with Windows 10 and especially 11 I just couldn’t take it anymore.

        • Justin@lemmy.jlh.name
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          7 months ago

          I just pulled the trigger last week and took out my Windows 10 drive! Ironically, league of legends broke on Linux again the next day. But I’m sticking with it. Windows is just so slow, bloated, and hard to navigate. And all my games run fine on Linux. LoL will probably be fixed again soon.

      • Justin@lemmy.jlh.name
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        7 months ago

        Are you using Steam? What game isn’t compatible with Linux and/or requires significant user effort to run?

        • zeroxxx@lemmy.my.id
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          7 months ago

          I’ve spent countless hours playing a game called Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI with PUK, which comes with its own DRM (non-Steam). Despite its availability on Steam, I’m hesitant to buy it again for the same experience, especially since it doesn’t run on Linux.

          Another game I enjoy, Dead by Daylight on Steam, consistently runs into issues such as severe memory leaks, unresponsive spacebar after alt-tabbing, random freezes, and occasional stutters no matter what troubleshooting I attempt.

          Lastly, my wife and I frequently play Fall Guys. While it’s mostly audio-related, there are occasional random disconnects that never happen on Windows, which can be frustrating for a game meant for casual enjoyment

        • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          7 months ago

          On Steam 60 000 games of the 70 000 are not compatible with Linux.

          • ExpertisePredicament@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            7 months ago

            Honest question, what do you consider not compatible? I switched to Linux earlier this year and 100%'d Armored Core 6 (Verrrrry good game everyone should play it) and I’m currently playing through Cyberpunk 2077 + Baldur’s Gate 3 co-op with friends. If AAA games like these work pretty well I’d assume the vast majority of those 60k games work as well.

      • azuth@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Linux not being able to launch a game (that probably was not made for it) is not a relationship issue but a technical one.

        Even if it is possible to run the game but you need to hack around your distro’s configurations, you can be certain the default configuration was not made with the specific intent of preventing you from running the game.

        In the Windows case you are not hacking around with the json file to solve a technical issue.

        Windows is not misconfigured, it’s Microsoft’s explicit decision to prevent you from removing some of it’s software even if it’s forced by law to do so for other people.

        It’s ok if you don’t mind Microsoft’s behavior or you just find Linux’s technical issues more important in choosing an OS. But the issues are not similar neither equivalent.

      • WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social
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        7 months ago

        Or maybe the one that I had to reinstall every other month because it kept failing to boot (probably because I broke something because I had no clue what I was doing and trying to get stuff working).

        • catonwheels@ttrpg.network
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          7 months ago

          Or maybe the one that I had to learn how rollback graphics drivers because I bought wrong brand of graphics card.

          • Adanisi@lemmy.zip
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            7 months ago

            This doesn’t make any sense. Drivers only get loaded if a device matching the correct device ID is plugged in. So a wrong driver won’t, can’t, load. So why would you need to rollback?

            If you don’t have the correct drivers, it’ll still work, just poorly. And from there you can get the correct ones.

            • catonwheels@ttrpg.network
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              7 months ago

              Maybe wrong terminology? Or hopefully not an issue.

              Nvida released a new driver. The driver crashed my Linux every time put on load. Had to uninstall with command line. Install old instead.

              With the replays on how that common with Linux and how I should brought amd. I assumed was Common frustration with new nvidia.

              • Adanisi@lemmy.zip
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                7 months ago

                Oh. Nvidia. Right.

                I admit Nvidia software is horrible, mainly because it’s proprietary and refuses to be nicely integrated. I’m not surprised they broke it. If only they’d at least release full documentation and then we could write good drivers for them.

                The nouveau drivers don’t break, and are free as in freedom, but they don’t support “reclocking” for any of the RTX cards, so they’re stuck running at a lower speed. I think the 10-series got support though so they should run fine under it.

                AMD support is a lot better than proprietary Nvidia, but it has it’s own freedom pitfalls (functionally, it’s fine on most distros).

                Nvidia drivers are definitely an outlier in GNU+Linux, most drivers are free and so they integrate very nicely with the rest of the system and don’t randomly break.

          • kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de
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            7 months ago

            These people are another barrier on the road to Linux adoption. I personally had an issue with Void Linux, a systemd free distro whose manual is seriously lacking and lots of what is in Arch Wiki may not apply there. I went to their support server, detailed my problem and said that I had done what their manual said. The first response, I get is read the manual when it is just a page long(for the specific issue I was facing).

            Ultimately, it was boiling down to a wrong flag attached to the command that was listed on the official website that was not solving my problem.

            • JTskulk@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Support forums kind of suck all over. I’d imagine the systemd free distros are more elitest than the norm. Also jeeze, just meming on the internet, no need to “Those people” me sheesh.

        • masterspace@lemmy.ca
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          7 months ago

          Bruh, computers are tools to accomplish a task, if you wanna obsess over jack shit, then stare at the toilet, dont gatekeep a hobby.

          • SaakoPaahtaa@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            This is very true. There is a difference between being bad at using software, and software being bad. Linux just has an intrinsically bad desktop design.

          • Adanisi@lemmy.zip
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            7 months ago

            You don’t need skills to use GNU+Linux, in the same way you don’t need skills to use Windows.

            It has different ways of doing things which needs to be learned, but that also applies the other way around. I’ve not touched Windows in years, and so it’d be quite an unfamiliar environment and I’d need to learn a new way to do things. That doesn’t mean it’s bad (it is, but for other reasons).

            Tl;Dr just because you’re not familiar with something doesn’t make it bad or inferior

    • smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de
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      7 months ago

      Yes, should escape from using Windows if can. But this is just news, why automatically there must be a comment like that?