In some countries we’re taught to treat implicit multiplications as a block, as if it was surrounded by parenthesis. Not sure what exactly this convention is called, but afaic this shit was never ambiguous here. It is a convention thing, there is no right or wrong as the convention needs to be given first. It is like arguing the spelling of color vs colour.
This is exactly right. It’s not a law of maths in the way that 1+1=2 is a law. It’s a convention of notation.
The vast majority of the time, mathematicians use implicit multiplication (aka multiplication indicated by juxtaposition) at a higher priority than division. This makes sense when you consider something like 1/2x. It’s an extremely common thing to want to write, and it would be a pain in the arse to have to write brackets there every single time. So 1/2x is universally interpreted as 1/(2x), and not (1/2)x, which would be x/2.
The same logic is what’s used here when people arrive at an answer of 1.
If you were to survey a bunch of mathematicians—and I mean people doing academic research in maths, not primary school teachers—you would find the vast majority of them would get to 1. However, you would first have to give a way to do that survey such that they don’t realise the reason they’re being surveyed, because if they realise it’s over a question like this they’ll probably end up saying “it’s deliberately ambiguous in an attempt to start arguments”.
So are you suggesting that Richard Feynman didn’t “deal with maths a lot”, then? Because there definitely exist examples where he worked within the limitations of the medium he was writing in (namely: writing in places where using bar fractions was not an option) and used juxtaposition for multiplication bound more tightly than division.
Here’s another example, from an advanced mathematics textbook:
Both show the use of juxtaposition taking precedence over division.
I should note that these screenshots are both taken from this video where you can see them with greater context and discussion on the subject.
Yep with pen and paper you always write fractions as actual fractions to not confuse yourself, never a division in sight, while with papers you have a page limit to observe. Length of the bars disambiguates precedence which is important because division is not associative; a/(b/c) /= (a/b)/c. “calculate from left to right” type of rules are awkward because they prevent you from arranging stuff freely for readability. None of what he writes there has more than one division in it, chances are that if you see two divisions anywhere in his work he’s using fractional notation.
Multiplication by juxtaposition not binding tightest is something I have only ever heard from Americans citing strange abbreviations as if they were mathematical laws. We were never taught any such procedural stuff in school: If you understand the underlying laws you know what you can do with an expression and what not, it’s the difference between teaching calculation and teaching algebra.
So 1/2x is universally interpreted as 1/(2x), and not (1/2)x, which would be x/2.
Sorry but both my phone calculator and TI-84 calculate 1/2X to be the same thing as X/2. It’s simply evaluating the equation left to right since multiplication and division have equal priorities.
X = 5
Y = 1/2X => (1/2) * X => X/2
Y = 2.5
If you want to see Y = 0.1 you must explicitly add parentheses around the 2X.
Before this thread I have never heard of implicit operations having higher priority than explicit operations, which honestly sounds like 100% bogus anyway.
You are saying that an implied operation has higher priority than one which I am defining as part of the equation with an operator? Bogus. I don’t buy it. Seriously when was this decided?
I am no mathematics expert, but I have taken up to calc 2 and differential equations and never heard this “rule” before.
I’m an engineer. Writing by hand I would always use a fraction. If I had to write this in an email or something (quickly and informally) either the context would have to be there for someone to know which one I meant or I would use brackets. I certainly wouldn’t just wrote 1/2x and expect you to know which one I meant with no additional context or brackets
It’s not a law of maths in the way that 1+1=2 is a law
Yes it is, literally! The Distributive Law, and Terms. Also 1+1=2 isn’t a Law, but a definition.
So 1/2x is universally interpreted as 1/(2x)
Correct, Terms - ab=(axb).
people doing academic research in maths, not primary school teachers
Don’t ask either - this is actually taught in Year 7.
if they realise it’s over a question like this they’ll probably end up saying “it’s deliberately ambiguous in an attempt to start arguments”
The university people, who’ve forgotten the rules of Maths, certainly say that, but I doubt Primary School teachers would say that - they teach the first stage of order of operations, without coefficients, then high school teachers teach how to do brackets with coefficients (The Distributive Law).
Firstly, don’t forget exponents come before multiply/divide. More importantly, neither defines wether implied multiplication is a multiply/divide operation or a bracketed operation.
The only confusion I can see is if you intended for the 4 to be an exponent of the 3 and didn’t know how to do that inline, or if you did actually intend for the 4 to be a separate numeral in the same term? And I’m confused because you haven’t used inline notation in a place that doesn’t support exponents of exponents without using inline notation (or a screenshot of it).
As written, which inline would be written as (2^3)4, then it’s 32. If you intended for the 4 to be an exponent, which would be written inline as 2^3^4, then it’s 2^81 (which is equal to whatever that is equal to - my calculator batteries are nearly dead).
we don’t have a standard
We do have a standard, and I told you what it was. The only confusion here is whether you didn’t know how to write that inline or not.
It’s ambiguous because it works both ways, not because we don’t have a standard.
Try reading the whole sentence. There is a standard, I’m not claiming there isn’t. Confusion exists because operating against the standard doesn’t immediately break everything like ignoring brackets would.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page (because different clients render text differently, more ambiguous standards…), what does this text say?
234
It should say 2^3^4; “Two to the power of three to the power of four”. The proper answer is 2⁸¹, but many math interpreters (including Excel, MATLAB, and many students) will instead compute 8⁴, which is quite different.
We have a standard because it’s ambiguous. If there was only one way to do it, we’d just do that, no standard needed. You’d need to go pretty deep into kettle math or group theory to find atypical addition for example.
It’s BE(D=M)(A=S). Different places have slightly different acronyms - B for bracket vs P for parenthesis, for example.
But, since your rule has the D&M as well as the A&S in brackets does that mean your rule means you have to do D&M as well as the A&S in the formula before you do the exponents that are not in brackets?
But seriously. Only grade school arithmetic textbooks have formulas written in this ambiguous manner. Real mathematicians write their formulas clearly so that there isn’t any ambiguity.
I was taught that division is just inverse multiplication, and to be treated as such when it came to the order of operations (i.e. they are treated as the same type of operation). Ditto with addition and subtraction.
I think when a number or variable is adjacent a bracket or parenthesis then it’s distribution to the terms within should always take place before any other multiplication or division outside of it. I think there is a clear right answer and it’s 1.
In some countries we’re taught to treat implicit multiplications as a block, as if it was surrounded by parenthesis. Not sure what exactly this convention is called, but afaic this shit was never ambiguous here. It is a convention thing, there is no right or wrong as the convention needs to be given first. It is like arguing the spelling of color vs colour.
This is exactly right. It’s not a law of maths in the way that 1+1=2 is a law. It’s a convention of notation.
The vast majority of the time, mathematicians use implicit multiplication (aka multiplication indicated by juxtaposition) at a higher priority than division. This makes sense when you consider something like 1/2x. It’s an extremely common thing to want to write, and it would be a pain in the arse to have to write brackets there every single time. So 1/2x is universally interpreted as 1/(2x), and not (1/2)x, which would be x/2.
The same logic is what’s used here when people arrive at an answer of 1.
If you were to survey a bunch of mathematicians—and I mean people doing academic research in maths, not primary school teachers—you would find the vast majority of them would get to 1. However, you would first have to give a way to do that survey such that they don’t realise the reason they’re being surveyed, because if they realise it’s over a question like this they’ll probably end up saying “it’s deliberately ambiguous in an attempt to start arguments”.
The real answer is that anyone who deals with math a lot would never write it this way, but use fractions instead
So are you suggesting that Richard Feynman didn’t “deal with maths a lot”, then? Because there definitely exist examples where he worked within the limitations of the medium he was writing in (namely: writing in places where using bar fractions was not an option) and used juxtaposition for multiplication bound more tightly than division.
Here’s another example, from an advanced mathematics textbook:
Both show the use of juxtaposition taking precedence over division.
I should note that these screenshots are both taken from this video where you can see them with greater context and discussion on the subject.
Mind you, Feynmann clearly states this is a fraction, and denotes it with “/” likely to make sure you treat it as a fraction.
Yep with pen and paper you always write fractions as actual fractions to not confuse yourself, never a division in sight, while with papers you have a page limit to observe. Length of the bars disambiguates precedence which is important because division is not associative; a/(b/c) /= (a/b)/c. “calculate from left to right” type of rules are awkward because they prevent you from arranging stuff freely for readability. None of what he writes there has more than one division in it, chances are that if you see two divisions anywhere in his work he’s using fractional notation.
Multiplication by juxtaposition not binding tightest is something I have only ever heard from Americans citing strange abbreviations as if they were mathematical laws. We were never taught any such procedural stuff in school: If you understand the underlying laws you know what you can do with an expression and what not, it’s the difference between teaching calculation and teaching algebra.
There is, especially if you’re dividing by a fraction! Division and fractions aren’t the same thing.
Not if it actually is a division and not a fraction. There’s no problem with having multiple divisions in a single expression.
Semantically, yes they are. Syntactically they’re different.
No, they’re not. Terms are separated by operators (division) and joined by grouping operators (fraction bar).
Yes, they would - it’s the standard way to write a factorised term.
Fractions and division aren’t the same thing.
Are you for real? A fraction is a shorthand for division with stronger (and therefore less ambiguous) order of operations
Yes, I’m a Maths teacher.
I added emphasis to where you nearly had it.
½ is a single term. 1÷2 is 2 terms. Terms are separated by operators (division in this case) and joined by grouping symbols (fraction bars, brackets).
1÷½=2
1÷1÷2=½ (must be done left to right)
Thus 1÷2 and ½ aren’t the same thing (they are equal in simple cases, but not the same thing), but ½ and (1÷2) are the same thing.
Sorry but both my phone calculator and TI-84 calculate 1/2X to be the same thing as X/2. It’s simply evaluating the equation left to right since multiplication and division have equal priorities.
X = 5
Y = 1/2X => (1/2) * X => X/2
Y = 2.5
If you want to see Y = 0.1 you must explicitly add parentheses around the 2X.
Before this thread I have never heard of implicit operations having higher priority than explicit operations, which honestly sounds like 100% bogus anyway.
You are saying that an implied operation has higher priority than one which I am defining as part of the equation with an operator? Bogus. I don’t buy it. Seriously when was this decided?
I am no mathematics expert, but I have taken up to calc 2 and differential equations and never heard this “rule” before.
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I’m an engineer. Writing by hand I would always use a fraction. If I had to write this in an email or something (quickly and informally) either the context would have to be there for someone to know which one I meant or I would use brackets. I certainly wouldn’t just wrote 1/2x and expect you to know which one I meant with no additional context or brackets
Yes it is, literally! The Distributive Law, and Terms. Also 1+1=2 isn’t a Law, but a definition.
Correct, Terms - ab=(axb).
Don’t ask either - this is actually taught in Year 7.
The university people, who’ve forgotten the rules of Maths, certainly say that, but I doubt Primary School teachers would say that - they teach the first stage of order of operations, without coefficients, then high school teachers teach how to do brackets with coefficients (The Distributive Law).
BDMAS bracket - divide - multiply - add - subtract
BEDMAS: Bracket - Exponent - Divide - Multiply - Add - Subtract
PEMDAS: Parenthesis - Exponent - Multiply - Divide - Add - Subtract
Firstly, don’t forget exponents come before multiply/divide. More importantly, neither defines wether implied multiplication is a multiply/divide operation or a bracketed operation.
Exponents should be the first thing right? Or are we talking the brackets in exponents…
Exponents are second, parentheses/brackets are always first. What order you do your exponents in is another ambiguity though.
No it isn’t - top down.
234 is ambiguous. 2(34) is standard practice, but some calculators aren’t that smart and will do (23)4.
It’s ambiguous because it works both ways, not because we don’t have a standard. Confusion is possible.
The only confusion I can see is if you intended for the 4 to be an exponent of the 3 and didn’t know how to do that inline, or if you did actually intend for the 4 to be a separate numeral in the same term? And I’m confused because you haven’t used inline notation in a place that doesn’t support exponents of exponents without using inline notation (or a screenshot of it).
As written, which inline would be written as (2^3)4, then it’s 32. If you intended for the 4 to be an exponent, which would be written inline as 2^3^4, then it’s 2^81 (which is equal to whatever that is equal to - my calculator batteries are nearly dead).
We do have a standard, and I told you what it was. The only confusion here is whether you didn’t know how to write that inline or not.
Try reading the whole sentence. There is a standard, I’m not claiming there isn’t. Confusion exists because operating against the standard doesn’t immediately break everything like ignoring brackets would.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page (because different clients render text differently, more ambiguous standards…), what does this text say?
It should say
2^3^4; “Two to the power of three to the power of four”. The proper answer is 2⁸¹, but many math interpreters (including Excel, MATLAB, and many students) will instead compute 8⁴, which is quite different.We have a standard because it’s ambiguous. If there was only one way to do it, we’d just do that, no standard needed. You’d need to go pretty deep into kettle math or group theory to find atypical addition for example.
Brackets are ALWAYS first.
afair, multiplication was always before division, also as addition was before subtraction
It’s BE(D=M)(A=S). Different places have slightly different acronyms - B for bracket vs P for parenthesis, for example.
But multiplication and division are whichever comes first right to left in the expression, and likewise with subtraction.
Although implicit multiplication is often treated as binding tighter than explicit. 1/2x is usually interpreted as 1/(2x), not (1/2)x.
a fair point, but aren’t division and subtraction are non-communicative, hence both operands need to be evaluated first?
It’s commutative, not communicative, btw
whoops, my bad
1 - 3 + 1 is interpreted as (1 - 3) + 1 = -1
Yes, they’re non commutative, and you need to evaluate anything in parens first, but that’s basically a red herring here.
ok, i guess you’re right
But, since your rule has the D&M as well as the A&S in brackets does that mean your rule means you have to do D&M as well as the A&S in the formula before you do the exponents that are not in brackets?
But seriously. Only grade school arithmetic textbooks have formulas written in this ambiguous manner. Real mathematicians write their formulas clearly so that there isn’t any ambiguity.
That’s not really true.
You’ll regularly see textbooks where 3x/2y is written to mean 3x/(2y) rather than (3x/2)*y because they don’t want to format
3x ---- 2yproperly because that’s a terrible waste of space in many contexts.
That’s what I said.
You generally don’t see algebra in grade school textbooks, though.
12 is a grade. I took algebra in the 7th grade.
Multiplication VS division doesn’t matter just like order of addition and subtraction doesn’t matter…You can do either and get same results.Edit : the order matters as proven below. So the order is important
If you do only multiplication first, then 2×3÷3×2 = 6÷6 = 1.
If you do mixed division and multiplication left to right, then 2×3÷3×2 = 6÷3×2 = 2×2 = 4.
Edit: changed whitespace for clarity
4 would be correct since you go left to right.
2nd one is correct, divisions first.
I was taught that division is just inverse multiplication, and to be treated as such when it came to the order of operations (i.e. they are treated as the same type of operation). Ditto with addition and subtraction.
I will never forget this.
BDSM Brackets … ok
Glad to be of help, I remember it being taughy back in the 4th grade and it stuck well.
I think when a number or variable is adjacent a bracket or parenthesis then it’s distribution to the terms within should always take place before any other multiplication or division outside of it. I think there is a clear right answer and it’s 1.
No there is no clear right answer because it is ambiguous. You would never seen it written that way.
Does it mean A÷[(B)©] or A÷B*C
It means
A ÷ B(C) which is equivalent to A ÷ (B*C)I literally just explained this. The Parenthesis takes priority over multiplication and division outright.
Maybe B*C = B(C) But A ÷ B(C) =! A ÷ B * CNo. It’s ambiguous. In a math book or written by anyone that actually uses math, you don’t have a “%”
You group stuff below the line, and you use parens and brackets to group things like (a + b) and (x)(y) so that it is not ambiguous.
2/xy would be almost always interpreted differently than 2/x(x+y) which is ambiguous and could mean (2/x)(x+y) or 2/[(x)(x+y)]
You continue to say it’s ambiguous, but the most commonly used convention on earth very clearly prioritizes parenthesis. It is not ambiguous.
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It’s 16, addition in bracket comes first
It’s 2 actual rules of Maths - Terms and The Distributive Law.
Correct.
Yes there is - obeying the rules is right, disobeying the rules is wrong.