This robs people of their individual context. The UK Prime Ministers wife is Indian and astonishingly privileged. You are suggesting a poor mine worker from Romania is somehow more privileged based on how he looks.
Lumping people into loose categories (particularly based on skin colour) and then prescribing loose values to them is fascist and racist.
We aren’t talking about another mine worker. We are comparing 2 individuals with certain characteristics. You have instead decided to compare a third individual because the initial comparison made the concept break down
Just because someone is a certain color does not prescribe to them any specific value judgement. As soon as you do that, one of those categories becomes the ongoing scapegoat for everyone’s problems, and it becomes fascist.
This is precisely the issue that I pointed at before, in reality, not everyone of a certain demographic has an advantage over everyone else of a certain demographic. Its a stupid point to attempt to initiate change because its flawed from the start
Intersectionality is the idea that various forms of privilege and circumstance interact with each other to make an individual. Certain influences are more impactful upon a particular person’s circumstances, and thus influence privilege to a much greater extent. The non-linear nature that DinosaurThussy is talking about can better be shown with examples.
If you’re homeless and white it’s clear that you’re in a worse off situation than a billionaire who is black. Class status has a far greater influence on this situation. It would be fair to say that the black billionaire has more privilege due to his class status but not his ethnic identity. That being said, it’s unlikely that the white man was denied a job due to his race in a way a homeless black person may be. Being poor and white and poor and black have many commonalities, but intersectional analysis allows us to understand the different ways and avenues that particular characteristics influences the ways that a person may end up in a particular circumstance.
The idea continues on. A person who is a billionaire may be significantly shielded from a lot of racism, or face it in a less extreme way. For example, that proverbial black billionaire likely wouldn’t have many run ins with racist cops in impoverished neighborhoods. However, he still might face the unifying characteristic of being called a slur by his peers in the way that a poor black person might. His privilege of wealth may not complete inoculate him facing racism at all, even if he faces it in a less extreme way.
In essence, this situation is viewing individuals dialectic-ly. It seeks to understand how all of a person’s identity and circumstances relate to the struggles and oppression certain groups or people may face in society.
I empathise with most of this and thank you for bothering to respond without resorting to 4chan energy.
The problem that remains unresolved is the refusal of some people to acknowledge that, like in science, observation is not without cost. What ends up happening is the observation of these trends then causes casualties of blame - in your example we could say the huge population of white people who dont fundamentally see black people in any light other than equal. An insult based on a black billionaire being a greedy billionaire gets called racially charged, when actually, it’s entirely class based. This reliably means that (for example) white working class boys/girls are left to rot.
Personally I see most of these prejudicial issues being an exclusively American problem that has been exported abroad, to the extent now that its difficult to untangle.
America has prejudicial issues at astonishing levels compared to the rest of the developed world. Obviously its an absurd statement to say there is no predujude abroad in the western world, but the US has the controlling stake in it, and happens to be an infectious cultural juggernaut.
there is literally a genocide being perpetrated by israel right now what do you mean america has prejudicial issues at astonishing levels comparatively
Personally I see most of these prejudicial issues being an exclusively American problem that has been exported abroad
Have you forgotten who colonised most of the world, including America? This is in no way an American centric issue. Racism exists in most countries on earth.
For example, just because a queer person is white does not mean they experience the same privilege as a cis het white person
Or how all women are oppressed, but the tribulations of white women are Not the same as those facing women of color or trans women, they face more and more varied forms of discrimination, but it doesn’t mean that one is more important or valid than others, just materially different for example
You’re posting to a niche reddit-clone that you only could’ve reliably found out about through either reddit, twitter, or mastodon. You have access to Google, you disingenuous twit.
LOOK IT THE FUCK UP WHEN YOU’RE CALLED ON FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTANDING SOMETHING RATHER THAN BEING A REDDITOR PEDANT, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST DO YOU NEED TYING YOUR SHOES EXPLAINED TO YOU THE SAME WAY???
Christ on a goddamned stick, I don’t know why I even try bothering with those worthless colonizer stains. Might as well try explaining sociology to a goddamn dog.
“Dr. King’s policy was, if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption. In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.” – Kwame Ture
You are very emotionally unstable, particularly nasty towards people with certain disorders. Do you think you are superior to them?
Someone with such lacking such basic self control should not be telling people how to run the world, you can barely handle a lemmy comment that doesn’t immediately conform to your interpretation of your worldview.
I don’t lack empathy at all, I just know how to separate emotional involvement from rational conversation, like an adult.
Violence is not, and has never been the answer. If you are fundamentally empathetic, you will always lose to someone who lacks empathy. They are much better at committing harm to others.
Do you think that the Prime Ministers wife is less privileged than the Romanian miner? How would you address the discrepancy with the group prescription?
You don’t get to say a bunch of dumb shit then pose one thought terminating question to try to pigeonhole somebody into saying you’re technically not wrong on this one thing (even though you are) and refusing to engage with the dozens of people whonare explaining to you why you’re wrong about pretty much everything.
I have no issue being wrong, and I haven’t refused to engage with anyone on anything, and no one has explained anything that I haven’t addressed so thats a lie. Unlike a teenage edgelord, I’m willing to accept that I don’t know everything and I’m open to learning something. But when people start rattling off that certain groups of people are superior or inferior to justify the scapegoating of their problems because they came to that conclusion after watching other people do it, it merits further clarification.
Then just be wrong and shut the fuck up and stop insisting you aren’t wrong when 20 other people are showing you way more patience than you deserve in explaining the myriad of reas9ns you’re wrong.
You sound inexperienced. Nothing you will say will even slightly move the needle on my intent or ability to discuss things. You can cry, wail, scream, insult, have a tantrum until you are blue in the face. It makes no difference to me. If you are willing to actually discuss something, then go for it. If you are just going to project your insecurities and view everything as a fight before it’s become one, then you are the barrier to opinions changing based on new information, and nothing else.
I honestly have to pretend that sexism in STEM is nowhere near as bad as I know it is for the sake of my own mental health. I’ve heard incredible stories of blatant sexism from colleagues and friends that I just can’t fathom
I’ve had to defend a close friend from repeated advances and touching, she was an engineer, he was 40 years older than her. It’s a problem. I’ve had good friends get taken advantage of by a PI. Gross. It’s the power dynamic in academia too where one person controls the career outcome of the PhD student. It’s really nuts out there. It’s getting better but that takes time and awareness. I’ve seen what the bad eggs do and they disgust me. It’s not just men, but there are a lot of cases of it.
This robs people of their individual context. The UK Prime Ministers wife is Indian and astonishingly privileged. You are suggesting a poor mine worker from Romania is somehow more privileged based on how he looks.
Lumping people into loose categories (particularly based on skin colour) and then prescribing loose values to them is fascist and racist.
You misunderstand the concept of privilege. It’s not linear. Intersectionality was devised to solve this exact contradiction.
Expand?
That poor mine worker is still in a better position than an otherwise identical minority would be in the same position.
A poor mine worker is in a tough place but at least he wasn’t refused that job because the company doesn’t hire non white people.
This exporting US culture shit has got to stop
We aren’t talking about another mine worker. We are comparing 2 individuals with certain characteristics. You have instead decided to compare a third individual because the initial comparison made the concept break down
Just because someone is a certain color does not prescribe to them any specific value judgement. As soon as you do that, one of those categories becomes the ongoing scapegoat for everyone’s problems, and it becomes fascist.
Does it ever occur to you that for your arguments to make sense you have to strip it of all context, historical perspecrive or material reality.
This is precisely the issue that I pointed at before, in reality, not everyone of a certain demographic has an advantage over everyone else of a certain demographic. Its a stupid point to attempt to initiate change because its flawed from the start
Intersectionality is the idea that various forms of privilege and circumstance interact with each other to make an individual. Certain influences are more impactful upon a particular person’s circumstances, and thus influence privilege to a much greater extent. The non-linear nature that DinosaurThussy is talking about can better be shown with examples.
If you’re homeless and white it’s clear that you’re in a worse off situation than a billionaire who is black. Class status has a far greater influence on this situation. It would be fair to say that the black billionaire has more privilege due to his class status but not his ethnic identity. That being said, it’s unlikely that the white man was denied a job due to his race in a way a homeless black person may be. Being poor and white and poor and black have many commonalities, but intersectional analysis allows us to understand the different ways and avenues that particular characteristics influences the ways that a person may end up in a particular circumstance.
The idea continues on. A person who is a billionaire may be significantly shielded from a lot of racism, or face it in a less extreme way. For example, that proverbial black billionaire likely wouldn’t have many run ins with racist cops in impoverished neighborhoods. However, he still might face the unifying characteristic of being called a slur by his peers in the way that a poor black person might. His privilege of wealth may not complete inoculate him facing racism at all, even if he faces it in a less extreme way.
In essence, this situation is viewing individuals dialectic-ly. It seeks to understand how all of a person’s identity and circumstances relate to the struggles and oppression certain groups or people may face in society.
I empathise with most of this and thank you for bothering to respond without resorting to 4chan energy.
The problem that remains unresolved is the refusal of some people to acknowledge that, like in science, observation is not without cost. What ends up happening is the observation of these trends then causes casualties of blame - in your example we could say the huge population of white people who dont fundamentally see black people in any light other than equal. An insult based on a black billionaire being a greedy billionaire gets called racially charged, when actually, it’s entirely class based. This reliably means that (for example) white working class boys/girls are left to rot.
Personally I see most of these prejudicial issues being an exclusively American problem that has been exported abroad, to the extent now that its difficult to untangle.
Prejudice being exclusively a domain of America is a crazy hot take
America has prejudicial issues at astonishing levels compared to the rest of the developed world. Obviously its an absurd statement to say there is no predujude abroad in the western world, but the US has the controlling stake in it, and happens to be an infectious cultural juggernaut.
there is literally a genocide being perpetrated by israel right now what do you mean america has prejudicial issues at astonishing levels comparatively
Have you forgotten where many originated from?
I wonder if there was material historical precedent that could explain this, and explain the state of the modern world?
Nah, systems aren’t real I forgot, nevermind
Have you forgotten who colonised most of the world, including America? This is in no way an American centric issue. Racism exists in most countries on earth.
This is what happens when you view the world through liberal idealism instead of doing any material analysis whatsoever
Systems aren’t real, they’re just imaginary, they can’t hurt you, there’s no such thing as systemic oppression just a few bad apples
Lmfao shut up
You are correct, but you can’t discuss on a rational level with people from hexbear, just give up.
For example, just because a queer person is white does not mean they experience the same privilege as a cis het white person
Or how all women are oppressed, but the tribulations of white women are Not the same as those facing women of color or trans women, they face more and more varied forms of discrimination, but it doesn’t mean that one is more important or valid than others, just materially different for example
youre deliberately misinterpreting the concept of intersectionality, it includes class.
I’m not deliberately mistinterpreting anything, if I don’t understand something, then explain it to me.
Incredibly privileged of you to assume everyone else has your spoilt middle class educational background
You’re posting to a niche reddit-clone that you only could’ve reliably found out about through either reddit, twitter, or mastodon. You have access to Google, you disingenuous twit.
Not relevant, it’s not my job to Google your arguments that I don’t know exist. If you wish to correct me on something, please do!
LOOK IT THE FUCK UP WHEN YOU’RE CALLED ON FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTANDING SOMETHING RATHER THAN BEING A REDDITOR PEDANT, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST DO YOU NEED TYING YOUR SHOES EXPLAINED TO YOU THE SAME WAY???
Y’know what, since I can’t even trust you to do that right at this point, have a link for it! https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=intersectionalism
Getting emotional because you are impotent to communicate your thoughts on a topic isn’t condusive to anyone understanding your point of view.
Now, without being unstable or abusive, please try again
A lemmy.zip user being an enormous ignorant tool?!! What? How could this happen!!?
Christ on a goddamned stick, I don’t know why I even try bothering with those worthless colonizer stains. Might as well try explaining sociology to a goddamn dog.
Please get fucked with your smuggard guero ass.
You are very emotionally unstable, particularly nasty towards people with certain disorders. Do you think you are superior to them?
Someone with such lacking such basic self control should not be telling people how to run the world, you can barely handle a lemmy comment that doesn’t immediately conform to your interpretation of your worldview.
I don’t lack empathy at all, I just know how to separate emotional involvement from rational conversation, like an adult.
Violence is not, and has never been the answer. If you are fundamentally empathetic, you will always lose to someone who lacks empathy. They are much better at committing harm to others.
ok so you have deliberately removed as many brain cells as possible from your brain, understood
Do you really think that you know all there is to know? Perhaps I know something that you don’t, but you don’t know what it is. What then?
Not the “I know of this one poc that’s in a position of power and so white privilege doesn’t exist” argument lol
Is the context not that in STEM women often face sexism?
Address what I said, not something else
Is the individual context not that in STEM women often face sexism, not something else?
Do you think that the Prime Ministers wife is less privileged than the Romanian miner? How would you address the discrepancy with the group prescription?
Do you think STEM women don’t face sexism? Address what I said, not something else.
Of course, I have first hand experience of it.
Now respond to what I said
What did you say? I’ll answer you, I’ve just lost the original question in all of your back and forth
No, no one thinks that, because part of the context there is that one of the people is married to a head of state, and one is a coal miner
You aren’t misunderstanding anything here, loser, and we aren’t dumb enough to fall for it
Lmao guck off you debate pervert
You don’t get to say a bunch of dumb shit then pose one thought terminating question to try to pigeonhole somebody into saying you’re technically not wrong on this one thing (even though you are) and refusing to engage with the dozens of people whonare explaining to you why you’re wrong about pretty much everything.
I have no issue being wrong, and I haven’t refused to engage with anyone on anything, and no one has explained anything that I haven’t addressed so thats a lie. Unlike a teenage edgelord, I’m willing to accept that I don’t know everything and I’m open to learning something. But when people start rattling off that certain groups of people are superior or inferior to justify the scapegoating of their problems because they came to that conclusion after watching other people do it, it merits further clarification.
Then just be wrong and shut the fuck up and stop insisting you aren’t wrong when 20 other people are showing you way more patience than you deserve in explaining the myriad of reas9ns you’re wrong.
You sound inexperienced. Nothing you will say will even slightly move the needle on my intent or ability to discuss things. You can cry, wail, scream, insult, have a tantrum until you are blue in the face. It makes no difference to me. If you are willing to actually discuss something, then go for it. If you are just going to project your insecurities and view everything as a fight before it’s become one, then you are the barrier to opinions changing based on new information, and nothing else.
I honestly have to pretend that sexism in STEM is nowhere near as bad as I know it is for the sake of my own mental health. I’ve heard incredible stories of blatant sexism from colleagues and friends that I just can’t fathom
I’ve had to defend a close friend from repeated advances and touching, she was an engineer, he was 40 years older than her. It’s a problem. I’ve had good friends get taken advantage of by a PI. Gross. It’s the power dynamic in academia too where one person controls the career outcome of the PhD student. It’s really nuts out there. It’s getting better but that takes time and awareness. I’ve seen what the bad eggs do and they disgust me. It’s not just men, but there are a lot of cases of it.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00795-1