The French government is considering a law that would require web browsers – like Mozilla’s Firefox – to block websites chosen by the government.
As always I am reminded that governments are run by the tech illiterate.
If they were run by techies, they’d do even more damage. Authoritarianism is the issue, not tech literacy.
For real - look at the damage “tech literate” corporate leaders are doing to the internet in particular, and society in general. The issue is less about knowledge and aptitude, and more about morals and ethics, and how those principles interact with the desire for profitability driven by investors and owners.
On one hand, yeah
On the other hand, I’m scared about the day when someone who is tech literate gets into government and tries to push stuff like this
Can’t they just put a metal box with a guard around the entire internet?
It is just a black box with a blinking light anyway.
Although the guard might get tired from climbing the stairs of the Elizabeth tower every day.
It crowd 🤣
Elizabeth tower every day.
because the internet has the best reception up there?
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I always thought the derision of that was overblown. You can tell what he meant. It’s not a completely flawed analogy.
Put a sock in that tube there or I’ll fine you.
Firefox being free software, it wouldn’t make much sense for them to try and do something like this. So obviously we know that Mozilla would never go along with such an absurd law and start doing censorship on behalf of France. … right, Mozilla? Slightly strange that you didn’t say so?
True… How would governments enforce dumb laws like that on open source software anyway?
Firefox is open source but it’s controlled by the Mozilla Foundation.
The steps would be
- Pass the law
- Tell Mozilla they’re breaking the law
- Do things to them as they’re breaking the law
It could be fines, it could be banning firefox in France. The good/bad roles are flipped, but anything anyone has tried to do to meta can be done to Mozilla, too. The only alternative Mozilla would have would be purposefully pulling Firefox from France.
Ultimately, Mozilla would have a vote of some kind, deciding to capitulate or pull firefox (or just keep paying fees, potentially, but they’re not made of money).
What stops them from putting a blanket statement on their website stating “this software does not adhere to specific internet laws in france and therefor we do not support the use of firefox as a browser within french borders. French people can still download firefox to study the software and use it for local/offline purposes.
Firefox isn’t quite the same as facebook in that its a piece of downloadable software instead of a service website. You don’t need an account. A foreigner can travel while having firefox as the only browser on their laptop and people can still share the program between eachother.
France might create requirements for their isps to not service not adhering browsers but in any way mozzila can keep their hands clean.
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They could still charge the leadership, fine them, and cause life to be a bit more difficult. Even if I don’t live in a country, I wouldn’t want that hanging over my head.
It’s hard not living in a country
I guess it cannot be completely enforced. What they can do, however, is to say that Firefox is illegal in France unless it complies with their unjust laws.
Mozilla could either choose to comply and release a French version of Firefox with government mandated fixes, or decide not to comply and probably block firefox.com from being accessible from France. This would make it harder for French users to find an alternative browser, making even more people will stick to the pre-installed Chromium based one.
In general it’s just not a good thing when open source software becomes illegal, no matter how hard the laws might be to implement.
Why would it be mozzilas responsibility to make their website unaccesible in france rather then that being the responsibility of french isp?
If north Korea puts up an obscure law that says all sites are banned from using english does that give them grounds to sue any sites that didn’t think of blocking them specifically?
This would make it harder for French users to find an alternative browser, making even more people will stick to the pre-installed Chromium based one.
Sad as it is, I think this is the optimal solution when it goes through. A lot of EU countries are against monopolies (France is not an exception), this way they would realize they are enforcing a monopoly and singular dependency.
They dont consider chromium based browsere a monopoly because there are over 10 different ones from different companies. The fact they are all chromium behind the scenes and all comply with google’s bullshit standards doesnt matter to them.
I agree. If you give in to laws like these you have already lost; people will just accept their freedom being stripped away piece by piece, and government control of software will be the new normal. If on the other hand we reach a point where Firefox is illegal in France, it should be obvious to anyone and especially those involved in competition law that something is not right.
France is on a bad spree lately, and honestly they need all the bad publicity they can get. I hope this backfires for them.
The software can be open source, the product is branded and published.
I hope that it would only be the “Frensh Version” of Firefox that implements this and that at least everone outside of France would get a version without this crap. This would then of course, be available to Frensh people to. Hopefully crap laws like this get stoped… lets see
It would work for 95% of browser users, who will not know that they can use a fork of Firefox because they have no idea what that means.
Right, these type of solutions are akin to changing your SSH port number. It works >90% of the time, but anyone skilled or determined can easily bypass these restrictions for given targets.
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Is a “No soliciting” sign on my house also terrorism then? Wtf
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/1q1hjmwLqe4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Why forcing the browsers? Couldn’t they just make a law for ISPs to block specific domains?
This is already possible (and is actively used, mainly for piracy related websites) with the current laws.
Aand it’s never enough
Too easy to bypass that with a VPN, proxy, or alternative DNS.
Either way it’s still a software restriction that can be bypassed with other software.
Librewolf is going to get very popular…
Never heard of that one, I was telling somebody the other day about IceWeasel. So there definitely are FF clones. Or I guess you could just compile Firefox yourself and remove the denylist portion of the code. Would be extra funny if they compiled a version specific for France (because why block sites for everybody else?) and put it next to the regular one on their website with text that said oh BTW if you’re in France definitely only download this version, wink wink.
Meanwhile Linux distros will just package the non-blocklist version and French citizens will end up bypassing the restriction by accident!
Librewolf is designed to be private and secure and is basicly hardened Firefox without telemetry
It’s not basically Firefox, it’s a fork with the settings already configured for privacy.
Eh there’s really only 2 players in the browser game right now
and the source code for both of them is available.
Could just compile yourself without the filtering
But like, can’t they just download the non France version of Firefox? Isn’t it open source? People can just build their own, right?
Yes but 90% of the people using Firefox won’t bother or notice. I already struggle trying to make all my relatives switch to Firefox, I can’t imagine getting them to download a specific version or build it themselves…
But the same applies for the other workarounds mentioned doesn’t it?
Why do right wingers hate freedom so much?
Its nothing to do with the right wing and everythiny to do with authoratarianism. Left wing authoratarians hate freedom just as much. They just usually attafk different targets.
Why do right wingers hate freedom so much?
What? Am I on crazy pills? This has nothing to do with polticial leaning. Its man VS big gov.
what political leaning do you thing this “big gov” has?
A globalist leaning. Macron if I recall comes from big money in the financial world. The do not have a leaning poltically, they are amoral, dark triad.
Because they see the freedom of people who aren’t like them as an abridgement of their freedom to force everyone to be like them.
I do not like france
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I like the french government even less
I am French and I state that in fact I do not like France
Ok, it’s a freedom and free speech nightmare, but are they stupid or something? They are aiming for the browsers instead of ISPs (and DNSes?)?
They tried this in the UK and the ISPs is just ignored them. So the government declared its success anyway, despite the fact that essentially nothing had happened, and then stopped talking about it.
These laws always come up by people whose grasp of technology is basically, make magic box do thing x. They don’t understand that people smarter than them (school kids) will find workarounds in about 10 seconds.
And the thing is, there are open source internet browsers that can be written to avoid any browser checks that a law might require.
However, if Google’s browser DRM gets widely implemented, a browser-side content blocker would be effective, because all those open source browsers would be unable to access the wider web.
I think if Big Brother Browser with Google DRM is our future, we’re going to see people using 2 browsers as standard. They’ll have one “corporate” internet browser, for Instagram, Amazon, whatever. And one “free” browser for all the grey area stuff.
Yes, but we need to fight them politically as it’s our money being wasted and they do cause some harms. One is, it keeps the population uninformed about what is with and against the grain of technology. But we also want them to not be trying to do wrong things, even if they are probably unworkable.
I “think” I remember them trying something like this before with the ISPs and it got smacked down.
Because DNS will do little and browsers will do straight up nothing. Especially for the good open source browsers.
How the fuck could a law like that possibly be enforceable? Mozilla should just tell them to go fuck themselves, offer alternative IPs so people can get around country-wide DNS blocks, and then go about their day. Who cares what some spineless country wants?
That’s what’s happened in other countries that have tried to implement this. Unless you want to basically go the Chinese route and ban all exterior access it’s an utterly unenforceable law. Which I am sure they would have been told if they had bothered to consult anybody with domain knowledge.
because it sets a precedent. “oh france did it, its not too bad”
Now imagine if something like this would happen after Google manages to DRM the internet? You won’t even be able to fork the browser…
“Do you not know my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” 🤷♂️
If worse comes to worst, someone can fork Firefox and remove the in-browser censorship. That is the beauty of FOSS.
Unfortunately the 99% that don’t know about less popular options will still be affected
True, however it will require some grassroots movement/discussion to make it known.
Can we sign it even it we don’t live in France?
Yes
So things like curl or lynx would be illegal eh? Good luck enforcing those.
What about HTTP client libraries for every computer language? Even if they went as far as to ban curl and lynx, with many languages you could whip up an HTTP client to pull whatever content you need in five minutes. This might be totally unenforceable at that level as people could modify the library or write code themselves.
Whelp, I signed in the dumbest way possible. Signed under the name Lupine Arsène. Only thing I regret is not putting the country as France to complete the dumb joke.
Somehow, I don’t think ruthless authoritarians are going to care about what the little people think.
Maybe a decentralized encrypted takedownsafe and possibly anonymous internet protocol won’t care what they think?
I mean we have to try IMO.
Good luck with that. The only such protocol I know of that people actually use is Tor, and it’s a US government honey pot.
If tor was a hobeypot they’d have a much easyer tine catching criminals using it
And now it allied with cryptocoins
Thanks for the support, Negative Nancy
Yeah I’m trying anyways :-) thx bdw
And if you bothered to invest a fifth of a third of a quarter of the energy you’re putting into being defensive into helping solve the problem, we wouldn’t be here.
I took your comment as against the argv_minus_one guys, so in favour of my comment he was bashing.
Anyways I do invest time in this stuff, I built the Tenfingers sharing protocol.
Cheers
And I took your comment as immature negativity only to find out it’s jealous whining at best and concern trolling and forum sliding at worst.
You’re not going to win the argument. All you’re going to do is make things worse. You’re not going to stop us from supporting Firefox in their time of need, or France’s, or the Internet. It’s just not gonna happen.
So go find something better to do with your free time and let the adults talk.
