It’s almost like we can’t make a machine conscious until we know what makes a human conscious, and it’s obvious Emergentism is bullshit because making machines smarter doesn’t make them conscious
The given link contains exactly zero evidence in favor of Orchestrated Objective Reduction — “something interesting observed in vitro using UV spectroscopy” is a far cry from anything having biological relevance, let alone significance for understanding consciousness. And it’s not like Orch-OR deserves the lofty label of theory, anyway; it’s an ill-defined, under-specified, ad hoc proposal to throw out quantum mechanics and replace it with something else.
The fact that programs built to do spicy autocomplete turn out to do spicy autocomplete has, as far as I can tell, zero implications for any theory of consciousness one way or the other.
Oh I see… I didn’t realize you were trying to tell me I was talking to Blake Stacey or that he was respected in Quantum Mechanics. I completely misinterpreted what you were trying to tell me. I blame it on the inability of text to properly convey sarcasm.
I don’t know anything about a Blake Stacey, but from context clues I’m assuming she’s one of those Quantum Mysticism nut jobs. Naw I don’t go for that sort of thing, and neither should anybody with even a single crumb of common sense.
Free Advice: If anyone says they’re going to heal you with “Quantum Healing”, it’s code for “I have no medical training, and if you listen to me, you’re going to die horribly.”
I get claims about Quantum Mechanics being involved with consciousness are a little sus, but given Penrose’s pedigree, history, and reputation and how much the science seems to check out I trust him. I know many have their doubts about the Orch-OR theory, but after doing a lot of reading up on it I think it reasonable to conclude that the reason it hasn’t been more widely embraced is due to quacks like Deepak Chopra and his ilk poisoning the well with his talk of “Quantum Consciousness”
Kludging an “objective reduction” process into the dynamics is throwing out quantum mechanics and replacing it with something else. And because Orch-OR is not quantum mechanics, every observation that a quantum effect might be biologically important somewhere is irrelevant. Orch-OR isn’t “quantum biology”, it’s pixie-dust biology.
You’re right that consciousness and intelligence are not the same. Our language tends to conflate the two.
However, evolution created consciousness over billions of years by emergent factors and no source of specific direction besides being more successful at reproduction. We can likely get there orders of magnitude faster than evolution could. The big problem would be recognizing it for what it is when it’s here.
Never heard of this thing but just reading through the wiki
An essential feature of Penrose’s theory is that the choice of states when objective reduction occurs is selected neither randomly (as are choices following wave function collapse) nor algorithmically. Rather, states are selected by a “non-computable” influence embedded in the Planck scale of spacetime geometry.
Neither randomly nor alorithmically, rather magically. Like really, what the fuck else could you mean by “non-computable” in there that would be distinguishable from magic?
Penrose claimed that such information is Platonic, representing pure mathematical truths, which relates to Penrose’s ideas concerning the three worlds: the physical, the mental, and the Platonic mathematical world. In Shadows of the Mind (1994), Penrose briefly indicates that this Platonic world could also include aesthetic and ethical values, but he does not commit to this further hypothesis.
And this is just crankery with absolutely no mathematical meaning. Also pure mathematical truths are not outside of the physical world, what the fuck would that even mean bro.
I thought Penrose was a smart physicist, the hell is he doing peddling this.
it’s well outside of his ballpark somehow, it’s like how Linus Pauling started all that megadose vitamin horseshit (starting with vit C), it sorta, kinda made a vibe-based shred of sense when you ignore all actual details, but he was hopelessly lost because he was not a biologist. what he had was nobel prize so he had enough cred for people to fall for it. many such cases!
It’s almost like we can’t make a machine conscious until we know what makes a human conscious, and it’s obvious Emergentism is bullshit because making machines smarter doesn’t make them conscious
Time to start listening to Roger Penrose’s Orch-OR theory as the evidence piles up - https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jpcb.3c07936
Throwing out emergentism because some linear algebra failed to replicate it is a pretty bad take.
The given link contains exactly zero evidence in favor of Orchestrated Objective Reduction — “something interesting observed in vitro using UV spectroscopy” is a far cry from anything having biological relevance, let alone significance for understanding consciousness. And it’s not like Orch-OR deserves the lofty label of theory, anyway; it’s an ill-defined, under-specified, ad hoc proposal to throw out quantum mechanics and replace it with something else.
The fact that programs built to do spicy autocomplete turn out to do spicy autocomplete has, as far as I can tell, zero implications for any theory of consciousness one way or the other.
Bro the main objection to Orch-OR is that the brain is too warm for Quatnum stuff to happen there, and then they found Quantum stuff in the brain.
it’s very important to me that you don’t type the words “Blake Stacey” into a search engine while explaining quote unquote Quatnum stuff to them
Oh I see… I didn’t realize you were trying to tell me I was talking to Blake Stacey or that he was respected in Quantum Mechanics. I completely misinterpreted what you were trying to tell me. I blame it on the inability of text to properly convey sarcasm.
you couldn’t even be affronted with wit? dire
I had mis-interpreted the comment to along the lines of something like “You’re just copying and pasting what you heard of Spirit Science aren’t you?”
My most humble apologizes. Maybe I just wasn’t paying hard enough attention.
randoms from /all wandering into the vale of sneers: https://www.buttersafe.com/2008/10/23/the-detour/
many such cases!
I don’t know anything about a Blake Stacey, but from context clues I’m assuming she’s one of those Quantum Mysticism nut jobs. Naw I don’t go for that sort of thing, and neither should anybody with even a single crumb of common sense.
Free Advice: If anyone says they’re going to heal you with “Quantum Healing”, it’s code for “I have no medical training, and if you listen to me, you’re going to die horribly.”
I get claims about Quantum Mechanics being involved with consciousness are a little sus, but given Penrose’s pedigree, history, and reputation and how much the science seems to check out I trust him. I know many have their doubts about the Orch-OR theory, but after doing a lot of reading up on it I think it reasonable to conclude that the reason it hasn’t been more widely embraced is due to quacks like Deepak Chopra and his ilk poisoning the well with his talk of “Quantum Consciousness”
You’re not doing yourself any favors with this reply.
Psst, check the usernames of the people in this thread!
Who needs usernames when you have “context clues” instead? :-P
If it helps, I know who you are and will still happily tell you incorrect information about yourself and your profession if asked to!
Wow, I guess humans and LLMs aren’t so different after all!
?
Kludging an “objective reduction” process into the dynamics is throwing out quantum mechanics and replacing it with something else. And because Orch-OR is not quantum mechanics, every observation that a quantum effect might be biologically important somewhere is irrelevant. Orch-OR isn’t “quantum biology”, it’s pixie-dust biology.
You’re right that consciousness and intelligence are not the same. Our language tends to conflate the two.
However, evolution created consciousness over billions of years by emergent factors and no source of specific direction besides being more successful at reproduction. We can likely get there orders of magnitude faster than evolution could. The big problem would be recognizing it for what it is when it’s here.
@frezik @HawlSera
> We can likely get there orders of magnitude faster than evolution could
[Citation needed]
If I practice trying to shoot hoops every day I’m going to get one in a lot sooner than you will just kicking at the ball every time you walk by.
@WolfLink so you’re saying there’s a measurable correlation between practicing a skill and getting better at it? Amazing
What’s this got to do with the Big Averaging Machine?
Specifically trying to do something will get it done a lot faster than waiting for it to happen by chance.
@WolfLink and that’s how evolution works, is it?
Yes it is, in fact. Tiny, random variations, which typically take millions of years to end being a noticeable change.
@WolfLink note how nothing there is “trying” to do anything
I mean, assuming it is at all possible (or rather that the problem even means anything), I suppose four billion years is a rather generous deadline.
We go orders of magnitude faster than evolution on tons of things. It’s not that big of a claim.
This is like 101 of bad logic, “this sentence is false because I failed to prove it just now”.
Never heard of this thing but just reading through the wiki
Neither randomly nor alorithmically, rather magically. Like really, what the fuck else could you mean by “non-computable” in there that would be distinguishable from magic?
And this is just crankery with absolutely no mathematical meaning. Also pure mathematical truths are not outside of the physical world, what the fuck would that even mean bro.
I thought Penrose was a smart physicist, the hell is he doing peddling this.
it’s well outside of his ballpark somehow, it’s like how Linus Pauling started all that megadose vitamin horseshit (starting with vit C), it sorta, kinda made a vibe-based shred of sense when you ignore all actual details, but he was hopelessly lost because he was not a biologist. what he had was nobel prize so he had enough cred for people to fall for it. many such cases!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-03-21