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It blows our hivemind that the United States doesn’t use the ISO 216 paper size standard (A4, A5 and the gang).
Like, we consider ourselves worldly people and are aware of America’s little idiosyncrasies like mass incarceration, the widespread availability of assault weapons and not being able to transfer money via your banking app, but come on - look how absolutely great it is to be European:
The American mind cannot comprehend this diagram
[Diagram of paper sizes as listed below]
ISO 216 A series papers formats
AO
A1
A3
A5
A7
A6
Et.
A4
Instead, Americans prostrate themselves to bizarrely-named paper types of seemingly random size: Letter, Legal, Tabloid (Ledger) and all other types of sordid nonsense. We’re not even going to include a picture because this is a family-friendly finance blog.
Wait… You can’t transfer money with a banking App???
Not really sure about that one, I’ve been able to transfer money with my banks app for more than a decade. Not all US banks are created equal.
Not all US banks are created equal
I think that’s the issue. Also how common direct deposit for paycheques in the US? I hear it’s rare but in Canada, it’s the norm and all our banks here can do e-transfers.
I’ve had direct deposit for every job since around 2004, before that it was a paper check on payday. Really I signed up for direct deposit after my manager gave me a hard time when I came in to pick up my check on a day I called out sick.
It’s relatively common, unless you work for a typical cash pay job (usually labor jobs, like construction)
I’ve had direct deposit at every job I’ve worked for over a decade. Before then, I only had one job that didn’t offer it, though I had friends with jobs that did have direct deposit. Very common to have it these days. Some jobs can even get you direct deposit for the amount you worked that very same day, so I’d work 8 hours and by the time I get home, I’d have my pay from that day, and it’s like that everyday.
Source: US citizen
Zelle is a thing with my banking app.
My sister has a credit union bank account and her app has it. I have PNC.
I’ve been able to transfer money through my banking app for a while without issue. Not sure where that came from in the post, cause it’s not true lol.
Yes. I can transfer money to someone just by knowing their phone number. I can do it on a Sunday afternoon and they get the money instantly. I haven’t used cash for more than a decade now. Haven’t used a card for at least 5 years.
Let’s not even start with the metric system (used everywhere) and the imperial system (used in the usa and some african countries).
According to wikipedia: “Some imperial measurements remain in limited use in Malaysia, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and South Africa.” - so, not even “some”, just one African country, and limited use.
I should’ve looked it up 🙈 I heard it once and didn’t have the countries in mind anymore.
Uh, I’ve never used inches, nor know anyone who does - a South African
The best part is the US Military and NASA both use metric. I love that fact.
Except for the UI.
During the Apollo program they had very limited computer capacity in the capsule and lander. Computers were huge machines back then and they had to fit one in a spaceship.
The Apollo computers used metric internally for all calculations. Anything shown to the astronauts however was in imperial, as metric was apparently too complicated for astronauts to comprehend. They had to waste precious computer capacity converting to imperial because even astronauts can’t handle anything else.
Don’t let the UK get away with their B’s as well, they use a mix of metric and imperial. Imo that even worse bc at least america is consistent with their bs measuring system
Americans aren’t consistent either. 2 liter and similar bottles (and it’s not even the same bottle, like they aren’t reusing molds or anything, it’s just an American 2 liter bottle). Sharp edges and points like on mechanical pencils are in millimeters. So are many nuts and bolts. Stuff like electricity and power are measured in metric units. Generally electronics/computer parts are in metric, the main exception that comes to mind is screen size, which even the rest of the world does in inches (LIKE WTF!?!).
There’s plenty of examples of metric units in the daily life of an American.
Most annoying is cars. We buy fuel in litres but measure our cars efficiency in miles per gallon, meaning I either have to calculate how many gallons I put in my car or how many kilometres I’ve driven to work out if I’m being more or less economical.
You’ve got to be kidding. How can that make any sort of sense?
And Canada. I hate that map of the US and Burma. The US uses metric as it is part of customary units anyway. I also wish metric was base 12 or 16.
OMG! This! I wish our numbering system was base 12 so much! As a species, we’re ready to evolve
I never gave any thought to this. Why is base 12 better?
Because it’s divisible by 2, 3, 4 and 6, which makes it easier to do fractional values. 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5.
What the fuck, that was way more hilarious than a blog post about financial securities messaging ought to have been
Wait a second if the bank app can’t transfer money how do they do it? Just barter with guns? Are the bullets like coins?
i just assumed people used 3rd party services for ease of use or faster transactions, seems so wild that you’d not be able to send money using your bank to me
here it takes 1-2 business day for a free wire transfer from one bank account to another, and you can do it in your banking app or on the bank’s website. you just need to authenticate with your online pin code. you can also pay 1€ to get a <24h transfer
it’s honestly much better than using a third party service, since pretty much everyone has a bank account, and pays using a card tied to that account directly
In Canada we have Interact e-Transfer. Basically all the banks colluded to make a system that allows for instant money transfer between banks using email or phone number as the recipient identifier, along with options for comments and security questions.
I felt like this was a huge step up compared to all the hoops and third party apps I had to use in Europe.
huh, yeah, i heard of similar things in the US
here it seems to be worked out through legislation though, rather than private deals, but that means it’s much slower to get set in place
Idk what all this talk is about - we have wire transfers in the US. I don’t need a third party to do it either, it’s exactly as you’ve described, I can do one through the bank’s app or on their website, and it’s free. It’s not as common though since the information required is: Name of the recipient’s account exactly as it is, account #, routing #, and exact name of the bank tied to the routing #. You can save that info though to make it easier to transfer the next time around - it’s very useful for close family and friends.
and it’s free
This is very uncommon in the US. Most major banks (I’m not aware of any exceptions) charge a fee for each outgoing wire transfer, usually $25-$30. Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Chase, and PNC for just a few examples I’m aware of, plus every credit union that has local branches in my area. Some of those banks even add a second fee at the recipient’s side for incoming wire transfer.
They often encourage customers to rely on third party services like Zelle instead for small transfers to friends and family. Many banks’ sites/apps can also handle transfers between two accounts that both belong to the same bank for free too.
Brasil enters the chat
No fees transfer takes seconds, as long as it’s not international. People use it for buying groceries, clothes or paying for whatever they buy in the middle of the street from other people who are not businesses. Confirmation of payment from receivers end is immediate with a push on your phone.
All sellers can produce a QR code including receiver address and price to be payed. All bank apps scan and pay seamlessly.
Quite similar to India’s UPI system
Russia enters the chat.
Same. It is done with National Payment System of Cards law, which people usually call “MIR cards”. It started as replacement system for visa and mastercard, but evolved into System of Fast Payments/Transactions.
You can use it in three ways: enter recepient’s card number, enter recepient’s phone number or use qr code.
We have a fee-free bank-to-bank transfer system that is based on pre-digital technology that takes 2-3 business days. We often call it “direct deposit” or automated clearing house (ACH). It’s often used for payroll and paying bills.
Now, we could probably make this payment system instantaneous relatively effortlessly (and thus useful for regular in-store purchases), but the banks lobby against this so they can continue to charge us fees and interest to over-use credit cards. (Interestingly enough, credit and debit cards all use direct deposit on the backend to actual transfer funds between parties).
This is all fine and dandy for most people because they simply can’t imagine doing things a more consumer-friendly way.
I imagine it has also something to do with safety? Like, if it was instantaneous, that means you can do damage instantaneously, or a hacker might have fewer hurdles to go through.
Your comment is all true, except - we CAN all imagine it, but as you pointed out, our unchecked hyper capitalism prevents it
We have a fee-free bank-to-bank transfer system that is based on pre-digital technology that takes 2-3 business days. We often call it “direct deposit” or automated clearing house (ACH).
Ah, right, kinda like SEPA Credit Transfer. You do need a persons IBAN which is a bit long, but their name is validated so you usually send it to the right person.
Now, we could probably make this payment system instantaneous relatively effortlessly
Ooh, cool, kinda like SEPA Instant Credit Transfer, which transfers money within ten seconds to bank accounts using the above mentioned number.
This is all fine and dandy for most people because they simply can’t imagine doing things a more consumer-friendly way
And that’s why, in the Netherlands, Tikkie took the country by storm. It is an app that allows you to use iDEAL (a web-based payment system, soon rolled out in Germany and Belgium as Vero) to send money to friends. Usually takes one pin and three taps to send it, and have it instantly appear on the account of the recipient.
Venmo, Zelle, Cash app, etc.
My last 3 banks all had ACH transfers in-app, too, so idk what they’re smoking
ACH transfer to a friend’s bank account?
I assume it’s ACH, I’m at work and my job includes doing ACH work so that just kinda typed out.
It has me put their routing and account number in, then took anywhere from 5 minutes to a day to clear, p sure that’s ACH
Wow awesome!
A day isn’t cool, but five minutes is pretty much acceptable.
I’m in Aus and our transfers are usually instant. However if you’re transferring a couple hundred bucks or more, and you haven’t made a transfer before to a person, it will hold it for a day. I think to give the customer time to call and say the transfer was fraudulent.
I respect that!
I pay monthly rent in Australia with that, couple thousands and no big deal
And the ACH only takes three business days!
3 days? UK here, the other day I transferred money to my wife (different bank) while she was handing her card to the cashier at the supermarket. It took about 1 second.
Surely there’s some challenger bank letting you do modern stuff?
Hahaha! We don’t have fair competition in America, silly!
Yeah they’re just making shit up, and it’s anti American so Lemmy assumes it’s true.
Actually, a lot of banking apps can be used to transfer money now, it’s just done through Zelle. We can also do a bank transfer using the routing and account number (at least with my banking app) but that I think takes longer.
We involve third parties to help spy on our transactions.
It’s OK, they charge us for the privilege.
Wtf?
Also are banks just dumb or what? Has it crossed their greedy minds that they also can charge to make transfers?
What’s pictured there is when people use Venmo to pay for something instead of just transferring money between friends. The fee is paid by the seller. Banks already do this for traditional sellers in the US which is why you’ll see signs asking for cash instead of cards.
And tax evasion. But I don’t care as long as the tamales are good.
Do Visa, Mastercard, etc, not charge transaction fees in Europe? The only place I’ve been where there’s no transaction fees paid by the vendor is China.
I’m in Australia and it’s a mix. Some places add the surcharge to the bill and can use cc for as low as$1, some don’t and don’t accept payments that’s less than 2 people’s meals ( and also don’t accept split bills).
But it’s very very hard to find a place that’s cash only. It comes to mind empanadas, so I got a laugh at the other reply about tamales.
I owned a business in Europe. My bank charged me a pretty low monthly flat fee for card charges, so I would take cards for any amount.
SEPA is not to take for granted.
Isn’t sepa the eu system?
Sorry but bank transfers are not 1st world exclusive, it’s common place in 3rd world as well.
PC LOAD LETTER? the fuck does that mean!?
It means there is a tiny scrap of paper lodged in one of the uptake wheels in the paper tray.
The annoying “letter” paper size is for some unknown reason what windows always sets as the paper size unless I change it to A4 manually. Naturally if I forget the printer won’t print. US paper sizing - annoying me on the other side of the Atlantic.
File I’m printing: A4 PDF
Default printer setting in Windows: A4
Default setting on printer itself: A4
Setting that gets chosen automatically in the print dialog: Letter
Wait, the US genuinely doesn’t use A4 etc.?
Their hole puncher has three holes and binders/folders have 3 rings as well
How many have yours got? More or fewer?
I have seen legal/letter sized clipboard with two rings, for the short end of the paper.
2, 4 or 23.
Either two or four. The two holes are kinda in the middle then if it’s four holes it’s those same two plus two more closer to the edge
And for 4, the spacing between them is the same as for the 2, leaving you 3 equal spaces.
And then there is Sweden…
6-9 holes? Is that where Swedes keep their meatballs
Filofax If from UK. For these organisers and notebooks they produce, imho it actually makes sense to have several (equally spaced) holes.
Swedish Triohålning and especially the corresponding binders however, are mildly speaking impractical: It works starting from ISO A6 instead A7 and reading documents in a trio binder is a mess.
YouTube content opportunity ❕
Comparison of US, EU, & Swedish hole punched paper. Which flips smoothest? Which is most tear resistant? Which tears most gracefully?
When have you ever seen a content gap on YouTube…
TIL
We have trouble fitting all our freedom on your kooky, internationally-recognized sizes
Here’s a comparison using the most sensible units possible:
Ngl as a Canadian, I implicitly thought 8.5x11 was A4. Well that’s dumb, we should switch.
I’m British and you are not alone, worse still, I spent a year in the USA and never even noticed.
Also, I’m pretty sure A4 runs through an American printer just fine.
They jam less
Most printers support a variety of paper sizes
Letter paper (8.5" x 11" | 215.9mm x 279.4mm) is kinda sorta pretty close to A4 (8.27" x 11.69" | 210mm x 297mm) so without having the two next to each other, it can seem like A4 is just a funny piece of letter, and vice versa. But to answer the actual question, USA and Canada (and apparently thr phillipines???) use the “North American Standard” which is a terrifying mess in comparison to the beauty that is the ISO standard.
Philippines makes sense, being a former US colony
The US is a former British colony, but it doesn’t stop them from doing whatever the hell they want. Utter lunatics…
I’m sorry, I still haven’t forgiven them for the whole tea thing…
We wanted to make sure it was as salty as King George III.
Tbf, I can see the use case for some “non-standard” sizes, like Legal, where having more height to the page without the extra width might be useful for readability of long documents.
…can’t think of an excuse for the rest, though.
That’s how it starts, you see the usefulness of one case, the next thing you know is you’re measuring distance in sheep and power in mice
power in mice
Hamsters, not mice. Get it right.
As a European, I do appreciate Legal as a format.
It just happens slightly too often that an A4 is not long enough and the last bit, including the signature, goes to the next page.
I wish Legal was common here. Or perhaps we could get a Long A4 with a third extra height or so.
The Letter format should just be replaced by A4 though.
As a European, haven’t you heard about the existence of the B and C series of paper sizes? It may not be exactly what you have in mind, but B4 paper is 250 x 353 mm (9.8 x 13.9 in) and C4 paper is 229 x 324 mm (9 x 12.8 in). There’s also elongated A which is really long.
I hope you appreciate the irony of an American telling you about them.
Burn the unbeliever!
There’s also scrolls, if Elongated A isn’t quite enough.
Tried these but my printer always gets caught on the wooden handle things 😜🤪
Time to update to a fax machine then!
https://www.possupply.com/other-pos-supplies-accessories/fax-paper-rolls-ribbons
I do miss the continuous form paper used with dot matrix printers.
It made banners easy, and I could make snakes out of the edges.
I think Mexico too, or at least the paper name is “carta” and “oficio” which would translate to letter and legal (kinda)
No, we mostly use Letter, Legal, etc. When you use photoshop to print, you would pick letter or legal usually.
https://goodcalculators.com/paper-size-conversion-calculator/
11x17 is incredibly common too. Usually it is oriented landscape and z folded to get a large diagram into a document. It’s kind of irritating that the most typical large format size is 24x36, which is a different aspect ratio than 11x17, for a variety of reasons. If you’re designing something you need to know what aspect ratio to design for. Most copiers can do 11x17, and if the standard large format size was 22x34 it would be exceedingly easy for most offices to produce good working copies of large documents. Best compromise I’ve seen is when people put a logo or header on the side that can be omitted when you switch aspect ratios.
Do you have a moment to talk about 8.5 x 11?
Make it quick there’s an important call coming in about my auto insurance
Just ask them to fax you
I dunno, it doesn’t look so good once you get to “Etc.” size.
Especially those A20 cheat sheets are so damn hard to read
i hate it when they only give out A20 exam sheets
My country (not USA) uses American paper. I hate it.
To be fair, A4 yields unwieldy pages that are too long to comfortably read. And when do you ever need the feature to fold an A4 sheet into A5?
almost all consumer printers are for a4.
i had (rare) occasions where i wanted to print a picture for an a3 sized frame and was able to glue together two a4 prints.also, as far as im aware, books in a4 size actually consist of a3 sheets bound together in the middle. (same with other sized books)
almost all consumer printers are for a4.
I never said A4 wasn’t the standard. I said it’s not a good one.
books in a4 size actually consist of a3 sheets bound together in the middle. (same with other sized books)
Let’s check. I grabbed four random German books from my bookshelf. If you’re right, the pages should either be roughly 30cm×21cm (A4) or 15cm×10.5cm (A5).
Book 1: 18cm × 11.5; book 2: 19cm×12.5cm; book 3: 20.5cm × 12.5cm; book 4: 24cm × 17cm. None of those conform to the standard.
I do this all the time. I print two pages on one A4 sheet (or rather four, two on each side) and then fold them so they are like a leaflet.
That’s the main advantage of the system – you don’t have to design things differently depending on how big you want to print them. You can scale the same design to an A6 flyer or an A2 Poster.
And when do you ever need the feature to fold an A4 sheet into A5?
When you want to read it more comfortably for example.
Are you american? If so, the “unwieldy and too long” is probably because you’re not used to it. I’m not used to letter-size and it seems weirdly short and unnecessarily wide but I know it’s because I’m just not used to it.
I’m German. If the pages are a comfortable size, why does no publisher ever use A5 or A4 paper? To quote an answer I gave to another comment here:
Let’s check. I grabbed four random German books from my bookshelf. If you’re right, the pages should either be roughly 30cm×21cm (A4) or 15cm×10.5cm (A5).
Book 1: 18cm × 11.5; book 2: 19cm×12.5cm; book 3: 20.5cm × 12.5cm; book 4: 24cm × 17cm. None of those conform to the standard.
Another hint that the paper format is weird is that scientific papers on A4 are always either printed in two columns or use the ninths rule for margins, i.e. 1/9 of margin on the inner and upper edges and 2/9 of margin on the outer and bottom edges, essentially throwing away almost half of the page (I’ll admit there are more economic recommendations of 1/11 or 1/13). This is to make the columns narrower to get closer to the target of 60–80 characters per line. Note also that this makes the ‘usable’ area approximately 20cm long, which is much closer to the American’s ‘Legal’ format (216mm).
These are very valid arguments that can’t be reduced to a lack of habit. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
Let’s check. I grabbed four random German books from my bookshelf. If you’re right, the pages should either be roughly 30cm×21cm (A4) or 15cm×10.5cm (A5).
Book 1: 18cm × 11.5; book 2: 19cm×12.5cm; book 3: 20.5cm × 12.5cm; book 4: 24cm × 17cm. None of those conform to the standard.
A5 is not 15x10,5
If A4 is 291x210 then OBVIOUSLY the next one starts with 210: 210x148.
You’re right. Sorry for getting my post-7pm arithmetic skills on you. However, my point still stands. ‘Close’ is not ‘conforming’ to the standard.
I use the “A5 booklet” function all the time.
Skill issue
Where I’m from, it’s super common to print A4 in half size and fold them into a little booklet when you need to distribute a few pages to loads of people
A4 is 17.6mm longer than an 8.5x11" sheet of paper.
And when do you ever need the feature to fold an A4 sheet into A5?
I’m sold, we should botch all other formats for origami
Lmao, it does not.
Is this why my printer has wierd size “letter”, that is not sized like letter?
Yeah, US software always defaults to their own non-compliant standards instead of looking at the location and determining the default that way.
That is why we in Europe and all the other parts of the world get these strange fuzzy prints where the text is almost unreadable, and is cut off on strange parts in the text.
This sounds like our bad, sorry.
Aside from the 1 to √2 ratio, the area of A0 paper is exactly 1m². People behind ISO 216 thought of everyting.
People behind ISO 216 thought of everyting
how to make a good standard:
step 1: copy from DIN
Well, Germans are pretty anal about standards (thankfully) and they do them right, so why not copy them?
The world would be a better place if we copied good things more often.
Imagine all of Europe copied Dutch transportation-, German prostitution- and Portugese drug-policies
From their website: “We’re ISO, the International Organization for Standardization. We develop and publish International Standards.”
Sadly, ISO in recent decade started to do bullshit. They don’t pay for standard development, they don’t employ anyone for standard development, they collect membership fees from national standards organizations, require payment to download most standards and don’t allow to copy published standards. Also they retroactively paywalled a lot of standards.
Which is awesome, because every number up halves the size. This, combined with the standard way that paper weights are given (e g. 80g/m2) allows you to easily calculate how much a piece of paper weights: 1 A4 80g/m2 weighs 5g (1/2^4 * 80g)
Now it makes even more sense!
fun fact: the length to width ratio of ISO 216, √2:1, is the same ratio as the tritone in an equal tempered 12-tone musical scale. If you fold A4 paper in half, you get a piece of paper with the same length to width ratio as before; analogously, if you invert a tritone, you get another tritone.
That is fun!
As famously read from letter-sized sheets:
I know it should be a fun fact but I can’t quite grasp it.
But is it a diminished fifth or augmented fourth?
Ackchyually…
Damn, you beat me to it.
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What NA does not do this what the fuck, backwards ass country in so many ways.
Right but this is definitely the most prominent & important reason
