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what good ever comes from being desirable to women?
half your shit + any alimony payments 10 years from now
This is why I prefer queer people, they generally know how to be themselves and have emotions.
As a gay guy, I call bullshit on that, unless you’re bi and have first-hand experience.
My experience is my queer circle. We have a nice online space where being yourself is normalized so there’s no pressure to act all manly or whatever.
Accepting that one is queer often includes a significant deal of shedding at least some of the internalized constraining expectations of society in order to accept yourself, so queer folk have a ‘cleaner’ slate to resocialize themselves on, if you will.
As a general rule, obviously none of this is universal, and there are plenty of poorly socialized toxic queer folk out there. But I’m inclined to agree that they’re less likely to be toxic, in my experience as well.
There’s def something to be said by just how alien the cishet dynamic is to me for example.
I have no concerns regarding children, no concerns regarding gender or power, I’m in a transbian relationship with another trans woman, we don’t have to work very hard to be equal in terms of societal sex dynamics.
It’s not all like we’re super enlightened Buddhist monks or something, we fight and get pissed and get upset, but man, that kind of discomfort and disconnect and almost a quiet rage I feel that cishet men and women have towards each other because of the broader state of societal relations between the groups just isn’t something that plays into it for me.
I suppose while being queer is generally more a curse practically in most of the world, this sort of freedom is some reward for surviving through it.
I am not interested in being desirable to women. Many women need to get over that some men don’t consider hanging out with women their obstacle in life.
Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn’t a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)
Every man is the son of a woman.
Yes and no. There are plenty of people raised by same sex adoptive parents
As a man, who knows many “men”, I have to say, a lot aren’t being raised… At all.
I relate, kind of.
I was like that, dad left when I was 11 and mom was majorly depressed. Watched a shit ton of YouTube and thankfully found myself on the good side. Around this time there was the war between Logan Paul and the rest of the internet and I watched a lot of commentators call his shit out.
Probably not the best for me, but it did teach the basic morals of “don’t be an asshole”. Most other kids watched Logan/Jake Paul and were insufferable fucks.
To summarize my youth: the only stuff I learned, outside of school, was taught to me by my brothers, in the form of bullying.
I was the youngest.
What I’m most annoyed by is that my dad, a teacher, with a bachelor’s in bookkeeping, taught me exactly nothing about money.
They fed me, and I got older, but I raised myself. I learned how to handle my own finances, and live on my own, because they certainly didn’t help me in that regard, and when I found myself basically on my own at 16, after my parents divorced and I was essentially abandoned, I had to sort my shit out damn fast. It was sink or swim.
Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that, but I’ll tell you this: as a teenager, I had no goddamned idea how to shop for groceries, or cook for myself.
I try not to bitch about it too much because that was more than 20 years ago now. I don’t want to compare my challenges to anyone else.
My entire point is that, I wasn’t taught anything. I figured it out without any help. The difference between a man, and a child who got older, is whether you taught yourself how to be self sufficient, when everyone else decided that you were old enough to know everything you needed to know, when nobody has actually explained anything to you about how to survive, then pushed you out the door… If you experienced that, and you figured it out. Welcome to adulthood, congrats. If you were never in a situation where if you missed a couple of shifts at work, you’d have to sleep under a bridge, then, IDK. Sounds a bit pampered to me.
It’s funny that you both place quotation marks around men, showing you don’t believe they are, and yet pretend that you think the fault is in how they’re being raised.
It’s like the dichotomy escapes you. Are they real men raised poorly? Or are they fake men and therefore they’re not the subject of this discussion at all?
I don’t expect you to have any reasonable response though because clearly the misandrist brain rot hit you pretty hard. My condolences. Maybe you should isolate though.
What even is this response?
I was raised. I raised myself.
I see a lot of boys who are so sheltered from the world that they can’t even make hot pockets or do their laundry without someone helping them.
I wanted to be raised by my parents and I was forced to raise myself. I don’t say this to garner any sympathy, because I know I won’t get any. I’m not going to throw myself a pity party because I was left to figure it out.
The only point I’m making, if any at all, is that: school doesn’t prepare you for life. It certainly didn’t prepare me for life… And parents should be teaching their kids how to deal with stuff, and think about their choices so they can make good ones without needing to be told what to do.
I had to figure that out on my own. It’s 100% possible to have a very easy upbringing and be raised right.
I don’t think I need to tell anyone that nobody gives a fuck about how you feel or how much you’re struggling, if you have a dick between your legs, and that demonstrates the problem in society. Boys will “figure it out”.
Most of them don’t, more than a few, never will.
What’s all this shit about being raised? Who raised you?
They feed you and expect you to grow but they didn’t have a plan on how to mautre just a list of don’ts you have to follow.
Do as I say!
Don’t talk back!
Becuase I said so!
Some just wait all the life to be in that position of power and now they are removed from it telling them they are wrong. If you think about it is almost a given they’ll turn to right wing if they promise them the price they were denied…
As a bisexual guy, this is exactly why I mostly dated women.
Wow! Sample size: 1. Sure showed them, buddy.
Clearly not bi, btw, you’re a misandrist. Congratulations 🎉!
I’ve never seen someone so pissed off and offended over not getting any bussy lmao
Hey! Bi cis male here, the few men I seem to go on dates with always seem to have some hangup. I’m not gay enough, I’m married to a women, hates vegans, hates trans people. It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
As a straight man I could say similar things about most of the women I’ve dated. It’s not a men problem or a women problem, it’s just how dating is. Nobody’s perfect and it’s hard to find someone that fits with you.
It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
If it’s a first date, you are interviewing them. I’m sorry it feels exhausting for you though.
I get what you mean but it shouldn’t feel like that. I shouldn’t be searching for something they might hate me over.
Yeah, when I met my wife the first time it was the opposite of exhausting. I felt like I could keep talking all night.
Dude same. It was really easy to date before 2016. First date with my wife we kept talking until the bar closed.
Now you have to look into your meeting spot make sure nothing problematic happened there. I was lucky that my enbyfriend friend was in the music scene when I was because I already knew a lot about them before our relationship started.
Now if someone is interested in me. I’m always skeptical. I recently got asked to help this straight lady cheat on her husband because she wanted to create strife for a divorce. Like who TF what’s to be involved with that stress?
I agree, it shouldn’t feel like that. As someone who is bi and queer though, on top of all the normal trials and tribulations of dating there’s also a long list of people who don’t think I have the right to exist. I’d rather find out they’re a hate filled asshole as soon as possible so I can move on with my life. At this stage I won’t meet someone face to face unless we’ve chatted extensively online already. Even though I’m dooming hard I do still hope you find someone 😊
You’re married, go on dates, then complain people are mad that you’re married… How many times were you dropped on your head as a kid exactly?
you mean to tell me that most people don’t believe the majority of the things you do? That’s weird.
Men are hot, but I’m more pessimistic about finding a guy I’d want a relationship with than finding a girl. As a transfem, I’d have an easier time finding a guy, but a majority would probably be abusive or chasers. There might be fewer women, but it’d be safer(women are more likely to be progressive) and they’d be more into me as a person. It’d be harder to hookup, but easier to find a gf than bf.
Even transmascs would be better than cis dudes because they’re almost certainly not bigoted chasers that were raised to see women as goals instead of people.
My wife would agree I suspect. She’s transfem, and basically considered herself a lesbian until she met me.
As a bisexual guy, this is not at all my experience with non-straight men. They seem to be mostly cool and well socialized.
“… in a way that makes them
desirable asactual adults.”FTFY.
I’m not gonna be the “not all men” guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that’s all you’re gonna find.
Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say “there’s no positives”, and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
It’s like you can’t even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.
That wasn’t my point. Good job failing at reading comprehension.
Sucks that your type has this character.
True, but it encompasses a lot of people.
Lmao at all these people saying “men bad” in a fanciful way and arguing that they still have a point because of their misandry.
I really wish you would all suffer the consequences of your sexism, lose a job here or there, maybe get divorced because you sure deserve it for being such pieces of toxic shit.
Men are bad at cleaning => sexist
Men are not taught as children to clean => not sexist
Men can’t emotionally regulate => sexist
Men are not socialized to emotionally regulate => not sexist
Women can’t change a tire => sexist
Women aren’t taught to change a tire => not sexist
Women are emotional => sexist
Women are taught to share their emotions => not sexist
There’s a big difference between making a statement about society and making a statement about humanity.
Every single sentence you say that starts with “Men…” is sexist. Get that in your damn head. It doesn’t matter what you say after that, the generalisation is sexist as fuck. Now go learn something or gtfo.
The concept that generalising statements are still applicable, even if they are not correct for every single person in the generalised group, is a bit complex, but if you sit down and think hard about it you might get it.
even if they are not correct for every single person in the generalised group
That’s your problem, you’re willing to lump everyone together. I can also go around looking at every minutia and flaw I can find from different people and lumping them all together under the “Women” umbrella, but I don’t because I’m not fucking stupid. Tell me again the percentage of the male population that does each and every single different thing you claim all men do? That’s right, it’s a fraction of a percentage. Most men are good. And yet “all men” enter your generalisation.
Could you elaborate on why you feel one or more of those statements is harmful? These sorts of statements were very helpful to me growing up, it was pivoting in realizing there wasnt something wrong with me, but rather i just needed to seek some extra instruction. Seems like the one on emotional regulation might be very helpful to you as well, as it seems to be getting in your way to communicate.
It’s easy, any person claiming to know more about the entirety of the population of any group, no matter if it’s men, women, or cardboard boxes, is wrong. This is what you’re doing. It pisses me off that you think biological differences define people for who they are, which is essentially what you’re doing by lumping “men” into the “rapists” category, just because you claim it’s too much effort to differentiate.
You don’t seem to be reading my comments, or perhaps you are conflating them with someone elses?
Firstly, I asked why the statements that I said are not sexist are harmful, I don’t think your statement answers that.
Second, the whole point of my initial post and the original post here, is that it isn’t biological differences, it’s social differences about how you are raised, how you were taught. Within a western context we all were sent to the same schools, the same playground experiences, the same daycares. Even if an individual escapes the socialization of one of these vectors, they are still exposed to all the others. that’s what’s under critique, not inherent truths about humanity. It’s important to introspect on these issues and seek to unlearn the parts that are harmful.
I also never even mentioned the word rapists in any of my comments, that seems like an entirely separate conversation entirely.
I’ll take a shot:
The word “Karen” has taken root in the last decade or so, describing a certain type of (generally female) personality. But why?
Well, that would likely be because it was a very popular name within a certain generation that also displays a fairly common set of behaviour among female members. The epitome of that behavior is one of privilege combined with victimhood.
But "Karen " isn’t a person, it’s a behavior model, and those “Karen’s” had kids (often plenty of them), and created subsequent generations that often learned similar behaviour.
These same people then twist concepts of feminism - which should mean equality - to mean superiority by:
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Expecting been to be in touch with their partner’s feelings, but making the latter take precedent.
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Expecting men to take on more traditionally “pink” work (cooking, cleaning, gardening etc) but not being involved in “blue” work (repairs, mowing the lawn, garbage, etc)
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Expecting men to spend more time involved with the children but also expecting them to do all that other stuff that takes up time, while simultaneously paying less attention to they kids themselves (stuck to a phone with kids stuck to a screen)
–
This can include stuff like:
Getting upset because of stuff like “you haven’t taken me out to dinner in a long time” while ignoring the part where that’s because the credit card hasn’t been paid off since that “girls retreat” a month ago that “I totally needed and deserved”. Any argument to the contrary is not taking into consideration [female]'s feelings, worth, and hard work.
Killing a discussion about [male]'s worth and feelings with “well you did/do X and that makes me feel terrible” (even if X occured weeks/months/years ago, and never mind if things go beyond feelings and into domestic violence. A man is expected to take it and NEVER raise a hand, even in defence.
Equality has been killed by “if you can’t handle me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best”.
We don’t just see this reflected in relationships. Look at the crazies who will scream their entitlement at wait staff, or even police. Notice that the counter arguments become increasingly “I [don’t] deserve this treatment” while ignoring the behaviour leading to it. Girls literally choose not to learn cooking, sewing etc because they don’t want to be pigeon-holed into “traditional roles”
So we end up with people like this, whose entire outlook on life is based on what they believe they deserve, with nothing to say how they should act, and everything is always somebody else’s fault. Men just fall into one of those “somebody else” categories.
And boys that are raised under these same household? They see their fathers go from proud to beaten-down and often broke after divorce etc. Is it a wonder that many are now growing up to not want relationships or to start a family of their own? It’s terrifying.
Now I’m not going to say that this is all women. I’ve met great women and an proud to be friends with many who are intelligent, self-sufficient, and (hopefully) absent of most of the bullshit above. However, there are an increasing - and rather frightening - number who appear to subscribe to the above, attempting to find a man who “deserves” them (i.e be perfect) without looking at what they bring to the table other than a nice TikTok/Insta profile.
The reality is, a good relationship is a combination of the foundation you start with, what you put in, and sometimes a bit of luck. You need concrete and clean water on solid ground to start. That doesn’t work if one person is contributing just sand or water.
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I would say intent really matters because a lot of times when people sort of step away from the issue in that way, it’s really just a thinly veiled way of espousing their beliefs without taking any blowback.
That I can certainly agree with, I guess I made that with the implicit assumption that they are made in good faith.
Caught me, I’m a self-hating man, definitely not a guy who is upset about societal standards applied to men giving us fucked tools for dealing with society in a civil manner.
The sheer gall of speaking about an entire half of the global population and generalising about them tells me enough about you. You don’t need to hide beneath a veneer of sarcasm and imply you actually have a point when you just want to diss people like you keep doing.
This is such a great way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals (“men are bad”). This is one of the few rimes that men are talked in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.
I’ve lost the podcast source that talked about “there is no good way to be a man currently”. Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
Bluey.
This is hilarious because Bluey is a girl
I meant the father from Bluey. What’s his name? Bandit?
Yeah, it’s Bandit. It’s one of those series that you can watch as an adult. It’s great. If they ever stop making it, I’m going to riot.
bluey is great, but it’s only one example in a sea of no ships. It’s also aussie, so it’s not even super culturally relevant to most of the west, it’s also focused at really young children.
Beyond young children you have shows like, full house, which is literally fucking ancient.
We, as a society, are still trapped within the “feminist revolution”, there’s fighting going on and no new normal emerged.
Both sides are ripped apart by two often contradicting sets of expectations, the traditional role and the progressive role.
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
And that also reflects on women, to put it extremely bluntly, he’s expected to pay for dinner, but she still wants equal pay. It will take decades to sort all of that out.
It sucks. As a dude, I feel it’s almost impossible to balance being confident and approaching women you don’t know and also not being a creep or bothering them. I’m not the best but not the worst when it comes to looks, I have many friends of different genders (shoutout to my enby fellows who have to deal with this mess and also discrimination) and I’m confident in most things I do aside from dating. It’s gotten to the point I just won’t ask women out due to anxiety over coming across as a creep or bothering them, and instead endure loneliness. Which is not great, but it is what it is.
I like it
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don’t really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of “being a strong man” they literally have nothing to live for in society.
That’s what the post above mine meant by there not being a positive manliness.
Progressive manliness is described as a substraction from the old ideal. We simply have not yet formed a positive, progressive male identity.
yeah, we need to work towards building something that solves this problem sooner rather than later, if you’re a parent now, you should be figuring this out now, and if you want to be a parent, figure it out before you have children.
What?? So when you were a kid ,you just wanted to be a “strong man” when you grew up??
there was nothing i wanted to be when i was growing up. I got the question of “what do you want to do” but there isn’t exactly a good answer to that question and nobody seemed to ever really care either. Things are more focused on education and not being an asshole individually, as opposed to be a socially good person who respects other people.
It should be no wonder that people raised like this turn to figures like andrew tate looking for some semblance of something to focus on.
the reason why strong man is quoted is because if you don’t grow up to be a strong person, as a man or a woman, or whatever in between, you fucking die.
Being a good human being is an option for everyone.
And I know this is from a kids cartoon, but Uncle Iroh from Airbender embodies benevolent masculinity pretty well. If we want children and young men to be socialized better, a good place to start is with our media to depicting more characters like that.
The best example of good manliness in media I can think of is Bandit from Bluey.
The options are pretty slim if a cartoon dog from a children’s show is humanity’s best example of being a good man.
Tim Walz seems to do it right.
And the speech professor
Uncle Iroh is another one
Idk, I think Aragorn is a great example. As is Samwise.
therapy is a good place to start. men need to want to improve themselves. many don’t. I find this issue to be more prevalent among older generations who are extremely resistant to therapy.
At least that means the routes men take will be more unique
Or they’ll all fall down the Andrew “Sex Trafficker” Tate pipeline instead.
He’s not special. Run of the mill pimp.
I didn’t say he was special, just that his type has an outsized influence on young men.
That’s correct. Please accept my apology if it seemed I was suggesting otherwise.
All good, I did misinterprete what you were trying to add :)
im sorry sex trafficking isn’t special?
Ugh, in no way am I trying to suggest this is a good man doing acceptable things. I’m trying to suggest he is a bad man doing exploitive things AND that there are many like him that perhaps are less skillful with social media.
yeah, and i don’t think that makes it or him “normal” either. He’s an exceptionally terrible human being. That has managed to be the kingpin of an entire attention economy for years now.
In some regards he is special That’s why Romania is putting him through the ringer, it’s why the extradition might actually happen.
Ok fine, he’s a special pimp.
there aren’t role models
What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behaviour.
Robin Williams was always a standup guy, Keanu Reeves seems like a nice guy, Ryan Reynolds seems to be a standup guy (but he has a hard monetary incentive to keep this image), the guys from Cinema Therapy seem to be decent. Do these people count as role models?
What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behavior.
people that are the stereotypical mr rogers of the real world. We really do just need more people that are such good people that just they instill goodness in others on a fundamental level. That and people willing to spend time educating others.
if you aren’t a stereo-typically perfect individual, that’s fine, you almost certainly have something useful that you can teach someone young that’s around you.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not. Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if “alpha males” stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
I was referring to the capitalist class that keeps people divided while they enrich themselves. Also it was primarily men who stopped me from expressing any sort of femininity while women passively agreed.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
Okay, I have to imagine you’re here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
Wouldn’t the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
However, I don’t give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn’t change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn’t wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
I want to see you again after 5 years. /lh
Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There’s probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn’t even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn’t you were a real oddball.
I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they’re trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don’t conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
same but then I realized I am a woman
It’s funny that you think being trans is relevant to the discussion.
It’s like you’re admitting that you have no personality, and that the sole reason for your transition is hating men. Fucking lmao.
Sure buddy
Same :3
never hated women but yes XD
Congratulations on your transition 🙏
i’m wondering how long it’s going to be before society realizes it has to do something about this unless it wants people like tate raising their children.
This has been a problem in the making for a long time and it’s even worse now with the internet so accessible.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It’s not really primed to do anything productive.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
it’s not that we need to call it out, we shouldn’t allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it’s not like he up and stopped doing that shit.
the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren’t doing at much of any rate.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
exactly.
Idk if it’s getting worse, most gen z boys seem to have been taught to clean much better than those before and are expected to be able to cook. That’s not to say all movements to equality happen in the right direction, it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
As a guy who had a hard time finding a video game loving girlfriend, I understand the sentiment.
