This is such a huge problem in atheism communities, which is why I don’t spend any time in them despite being secular and non religious myself (yeah, I honestly don’t even like using the term “atheist” anymore). Religious or not, you shouldn’t be telling people what to believe or how to believe. That goes for hardline Christian nationalists just as much as it goes for hardline Atheists attacking anyone of faith. If it’s not hurting anyone, let people believe what they believe.
I agree with this sentiment, but Christianity is partly defined by “spreading the word of god”. So “telling people what to believe” is par for the course (think missionaries).
Curious though, why do you not refer to yourself as atheist? Non-religious is actually not very specific. Non-religious can mean Agnostic Theist, Agnostic Atheist, or Atheist.
Really I prefer the word secular for myself, and for me that means I am comfortable within my own ignorance. Scientifically, we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god/gods, afterlife, etc. They are unfalsifiable, and therefore inproveable either way. So I just say I am comfortable not knowing. I neither assert the existence of god or the nonexistence of god, because I have no way to know either is true. That, and as I stated previously I just don’t like some of the connotations aetheism has gotten. Long ago I used to be a very loud, annoying, self-proclaimed atheist. But eventually I realized that just as there is no way to prove theism, there is no way to prove atheism. That, and I recognized that in my efforts to “spread” atheism and debunk religion I’d basically become what I was originally trying to “fight against,” essentially. Now I should be clear that I very much do still massively criticize those who try to exercise their religion onto others. I’m trans so I’m very used to it at this point. But I know plenty of religious people from all kinds of different religious backgrounds who practice in a way that is accepting of all people and does not impact those who do not share their faith, and I really see no problem with that.
From your description, it sounds like you are an Agnostic Atheist. It takes some faith to be an Atheist. Personally, I agree with your points, so I’d be more of an Agnostic Atheist too; but I am somewhat convinced that science has decent evidence which disproves the old and new testament god. I believe our scientific understanding of our universe suggests god would not give a shit whether it was worshipped and it would not be some moral judge. It’s consciousness (if we can even call it that) would be so far beyond what humans could comprehend that our puny human morales and ethical dilemmas would be irrelevant to it. Nevertheless, I still think human morales and ethics are important, because us Agnostic Atheists don’t need the fear of divine retribution to do the right thing.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs in such detail. I appreciate it. Sorry to hear about your experience with those forcing their religion on you due to being transgendered. I am cisgendered, but I like to consider myself an ally. I have a lgbtq+ flag flying in my classroom (I’m a teacher) and I already had to give a student a stern talk for telling me that “god loves you” after looking at my flag
I read “The Moral Landscape”. 90% of it is pretty good, but he’ll randomly drop “and that’s why we need to be worried about Islamic takeover of western Europe” into something completely unrelated. He spends a lot more time complaining about Islamic fundamentalist than he does the Christian fundamentalist who actually have political power in the US (and to a lesser degree, western Europe). Then you get to a chapter that’s all about religious influence on society, but it’s all about relatively relaxed Christians who have Ph.Ds in some field and show up at scientific conferences.
You might expect a word somewhere about the fundamentalist Christians who control roughly half of Congress, but no. It’s all Muslims and Christians who make it a more personal thing.
Religious or not, you shouldn’t be telling people what to believe or how to believe. That goes for hardline Christian nationalists just as much as it goes for hardline Atheists attacking anyone of faith. If it’s not hurting anyone, let people believe what they believe.
I would agree, but I’ve actually become sympathetic to the opposite viewpoint recently. It is hurting people. Look at the policy decisions in the US that are driven by religious fundamentalism. Heck, just think about the core premise that faith is stronger than reason. That’s an inherently problematic and extremely exploitable viewpoint. I don’t think something like religion can be counted as harmless by ignoring all the examples of harm that it causes. If a belief is only not dangerous when it agrees with other beliefs, and is dangerous when it disagrees, then that is a fundamentally dangerous belief all the time, which only becomes apparent sometimes. I think religion has a purpose, to give community to those who need it, but fundamentally it is not good.
spoiler
If God is reading this, I’m sorry, but I do hope I get points for trying to hold good beliefs from fundamentals. It’s also a reasonable religious viewpoint that organized religion has been taken over by the literal Antichrist. You could say that I hold faith that good acts are judged accordingly regardless of religion.
The thing is that is exactly what I mean by having a problem with people who force their religious values onto others, which is expressly not okay. But I know plenty of people, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or whatever else who practice their faith in their own lives and do not disrupt the lives of others according to their beliefs. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of religious people I have met and know in real life are like this. Christian nationalists are different, they don’t respect the beliefs of others and want to force their faith onto other people. That’s where the line is. What I have a problem with is those who attack people who are not past that line, who are practicing their faith in their own lives without forcing anything onto others.
I think that’s fair. I generally follow that philosophy in my personal life; many members of my family are religious to various degrees, but we don’t really discuss it much, and their beliefs don’t really effect my perception of them, because we don’t try to force our beliefs on each other.
This is such a huge problem in atheism communities, which is why I don’t spend any time in them despite being secular and non religious myself (yeah, I honestly don’t even like using the term “atheist” anymore). Religious or not, you shouldn’t be telling people what to believe or how to believe. That goes for hardline Christian nationalists just as much as it goes for hardline Atheists attacking anyone of faith. If it’s not hurting anyone, let people believe what they believe.
The constant angry circlejerk abounds. Deadass I got way more atheist mileage out of the DankChristianMemes sub than any atheist sub on the old place.
Some fuckers are too euphoric to have fun it seems.
I agree with this sentiment, but Christianity is partly defined by “spreading the word of god”. So “telling people what to believe” is par for the course (think missionaries).
Curious though, why do you not refer to yourself as atheist? Non-religious is actually not very specific. Non-religious can mean Agnostic Theist, Agnostic Atheist, or Atheist.
Really I prefer the word secular for myself, and for me that means I am comfortable within my own ignorance. Scientifically, we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god/gods, afterlife, etc. They are unfalsifiable, and therefore inproveable either way. So I just say I am comfortable not knowing. I neither assert the existence of god or the nonexistence of god, because I have no way to know either is true. That, and as I stated previously I just don’t like some of the connotations aetheism has gotten. Long ago I used to be a very loud, annoying, self-proclaimed atheist. But eventually I realized that just as there is no way to prove theism, there is no way to prove atheism. That, and I recognized that in my efforts to “spread” atheism and debunk religion I’d basically become what I was originally trying to “fight against,” essentially. Now I should be clear that I very much do still massively criticize those who try to exercise their religion onto others. I’m trans so I’m very used to it at this point. But I know plenty of religious people from all kinds of different religious backgrounds who practice in a way that is accepting of all people and does not impact those who do not share their faith, and I really see no problem with that.
From your description, it sounds like you are an Agnostic Atheist. It takes some faith to be an Atheist. Personally, I agree with your points, so I’d be more of an Agnostic Atheist too; but I am somewhat convinced that science has decent evidence which disproves the old and new testament god. I believe our scientific understanding of our universe suggests god would not give a shit whether it was worshipped and it would not be some moral judge. It’s consciousness (if we can even call it that) would be so far beyond what humans could comprehend that our puny human morales and ethical dilemmas would be irrelevant to it. Nevertheless, I still think human morales and ethics are important, because us Agnostic Atheists don’t need the fear of divine retribution to do the right thing.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs in such detail. I appreciate it. Sorry to hear about your experience with those forcing their religion on you due to being transgendered. I am cisgendered, but I like to consider myself an ally. I have a lgbtq+ flag flying in my classroom (I’m a teacher) and I already had to give a student a stern talk for telling me that “god loves you” after looking at my flag
Thanks, Sam Harris.
I read “The Moral Landscape”. 90% of it is pretty good, but he’ll randomly drop “and that’s why we need to be worried about Islamic takeover of western Europe” into something completely unrelated. He spends a lot more time complaining about Islamic fundamentalist than he does the Christian fundamentalist who actually have political power in the US (and to a lesser degree, western Europe). Then you get to a chapter that’s all about religious influence on society, but it’s all about relatively relaxed Christians who have Ph.Ds in some field and show up at scientific conferences.
You might expect a word somewhere about the fundamentalist Christians who control roughly half of Congress, but no. It’s all Muslims and Christians who make it a more personal thing.
Wow, that is pretty ridiculous
I would agree, but I’ve actually become sympathetic to the opposite viewpoint recently. It is hurting people. Look at the policy decisions in the US that are driven by religious fundamentalism. Heck, just think about the core premise that faith is stronger than reason. That’s an inherently problematic and extremely exploitable viewpoint. I don’t think something like religion can be counted as harmless by ignoring all the examples of harm that it causes. If a belief is only not dangerous when it agrees with other beliefs, and is dangerous when it disagrees, then that is a fundamentally dangerous belief all the time, which only becomes apparent sometimes. I think religion has a purpose, to give community to those who need it, but fundamentally it is not good.
spoiler
If God is reading this, I’m sorry, but I do hope I get points for trying to hold good beliefs from fundamentals. It’s also a reasonable religious viewpoint that organized religion has been taken over by the literal Antichrist. You could say that I hold faith that good acts are judged accordingly regardless of religion.
…I would make a really weird Christian.
The thing is that is exactly what I mean by having a problem with people who force their religious values onto others, which is expressly not okay. But I know plenty of people, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or whatever else who practice their faith in their own lives and do not disrupt the lives of others according to their beliefs. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of religious people I have met and know in real life are like this. Christian nationalists are different, they don’t respect the beliefs of others and want to force their faith onto other people. That’s where the line is. What I have a problem with is those who attack people who are not past that line, who are practicing their faith in their own lives without forcing anything onto others.
I think that’s fair. I generally follow that philosophy in my personal life; many members of my family are religious to various degrees, but we don’t really discuss it much, and their beliefs don’t really effect my perception of them, because we don’t try to force our beliefs on each other.