And I’m being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don’t understand it. Can someone please “steelman” that argument for me?
The best argument I came across went something like this: if we show the Democratic Party that we’ll accept something as horrible as genocide as long as the Republicans are worse, then we’ve completely surrendered our agency as voters.
Powerful statement. It was the most coherent, rational, well thought out explanation I’d seen. It didn’t come off as a condescending lecture on morality, either. I actually considered their argument for a couple days, but ultimately, I decided it wasn’t strong enough to risk another Trump administration.
It is a stupid fucking statement. “If you aren’t perfect on every single issue, then we won’t vote for you.”
- Step 1: take a conflict your nation did not start
- Step 2: tear your party apart over a conflict your nation did not start
- Step 3: lose the electoral fight in your nation to trump
- Step 4: ensure the war in that other nation is decided in the way your side did not want it to go
- Step 5: call Joe Biden a genocidal maniac
Maybe I don’t want the people who think this is a valid course of action on my side, since they will sabotage my side. If there is a next election, I want these folks ejected from the party and gone. They can vote for trump if they want, because that’s essentially what they did.
Israel is an arm of the US, Gaza is a proxy war. American presidents bear direct responsibility for the genocide
I think there are no right or wrong. It became clear that both Democrats and Republic pushing the same exact support for Israel. When it comes to Palestine there are no lesser Evil.
Leading to this election, Israel burned hospitals and people in tent alive in Jabalia, barely any internet access, no water or food enters for almost 50 days now.
They carpet bomb gaza, attack UN bases, and finally declare UNRAWA can no longer work, another UN agency.
This is under Democrats. They already finishing the job.
Now what exactly Trump or republic will do is going to be the same. nothing will change because we are at the worst and there is nothing more they can do to make the situation even worse.
So if they are the same, and the government is not listening then what is the point of participation in election?
Obviously you can’t go back in time but you should of voted for the down ballot candidates that are pertinent to your day to day life where you live, and then voted third party or even left it blank for the president.
Your local candidates at the state and lower level have nothing to do with Gaza but do decide if your schools are properly staffed and if your potholes are filled, etc.
You are citing one subject here, Palestine. Yes, maybe under Harris nothing would have been different in regards to this. But it is pretty obvious, that under the orange shitstain’s regime, many people all over the world will suffer a lot. The point in participating in this election was to prevent that. You didn’t vote the special representativefor Palestine or some shit, but the president of the most influencial country in the world. Your actions have consequences. All Americans who voted for Trump or did not participate fucked not only themselves, but also so many millions of other people over, so I really thing, they should go fuck themselves.
The democrats’ hands are not clean. They didn’t fight for human rights even while red states and ICE were busy annihilating them. They had four years to do so, a trifecta in the start, and we watched as red state after red state made being trans illegal. They have been transparent about going after gay and inter racial marriage next. The democrats at the national level haven’t offered anything in response. We also still have illegal debtor’s prisons, child lunch debt, increasing rates of homelessness and abuse of homeless people.
The democrats can’t just sit there doing nothing and expect people to vote for them.
And your playing whataboutisms. Those other issues are directly related to gaza.
The military industrial complex loves israel/Palestine conflicts makes them oodles of money. Hence both parties support israel and killing Palestinians.
The capital class loves suppressing wages and benefits. Hence no pro labor policies from the dems/reps.
The MIC loves the Ukraine war, see israel above.
Capital loves monopolies, less competition for workers, easier to raise prices, etc. again reason behind no labor policies.
LGBT? Same deal. Corporate doesnt care, hence policies generally go through.
The only difference between dems and repubs is one are religious fanatics. People in currently blue states are safe from them, those who are not, are not.
All the issues you think just got fucked are going to be mostly unchanged regardless whom won this election. Shitty states going to get shittier. All the lesser evil people will be laser focused on trump now and as a result the representatives will have to do real work.
The genocide and everything else are one and the same. One is just easier to articulate to people who have some morals, though some will continue the lesser evil nonsense.
In the meantime find the real progressives in your area and encourage them to run
The *only* difference between dems and repubs is one are religious fanatics. People in currently blue states are safe from them, those who are not, are not.
This is definitely something serious that we shouldn’t downplay. I’m of the belief (in agreement with you) that the parties are mostly the same, and the dems just talk a whole lot of talk on domestic stuff and then do worse than nothing. But the christofascists backing trump are far more terrifying than trump himself and they’re not going anywhere, they vastly predate his political career. But in the past they were a weird loud minority, they still are but they’re not such a small minority anymore and THAT is fucking terrifying.
In no way am I downplaying the religious fanatic dangers.
Sorry not meaning that accusatory I mean all of us should not downplay it
All good friend.
You still think there’s going to be another election, huh?
thats quitter talk soldier. =)
R is pushing more support for Israel so D is the lesser evil. There’s a reason Netanyahu wanted Trump. If you think it couldn’t get worse than D level support, stay tuned
Do you have one reason to not vote for Harris, or Many reasons not to vote? Lets say in this Trolley like problem scenario that Flipping the lever to run over one is voting for Harris, flipping it to roll over the list is voting for trump - and rejecting making the choice is walking away.
Thing is - this gets complicated: Just because someone publicly says they aren’t voting because of Gaza does not mean 1. they didn’t vote, and 2. doesn’t mean they don’t see all the other problems - because left organizations/groups have a tendency of vilifying anyone that opposes their view points excessively - because they have the moral high ground supposedly - the end result is: People won’t speak up about the real reasons, they will stick to the socially acceptable one and move on. It’s far easier, simpler.
So: What is on the long list of problems?
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Biden ending the “Stay in Mexico” Agreement.
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Tax payer dollars being sent to illegal immigrants in various ways.
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The way deaths were assigned to Covid - even when the person had stage 4 cancer, and covid was maybe a contributing factor.
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Catch and Release policies found in a number of Democrat stronghold cities - to a point that stores are giving up trying to operate in the regions. And I’m not talking small locations - I’m talking big businesses. Small ones end up going belly up because they can’t eat the costs, insurance premiums for protecting your inventory in the areas have gone up and that means small businesses can’t afford to insure, and that raises their risks.
Should I continue?
Trumps anti-sanctuary city, record on putting in effective policy to deal with the southern boarder problem, and take on the fact that US cities should be sanctuaries for US citizens - well: That resonates with people. It resonates in California (where voter support from previous years to today went up ~8%), it resonates in New york (comparing previous years to today is ~+7% over previous years), even in Texas (~3% uptick). Trump WON the popular vote with fairly high voter turn out.
The Truth is
No person struggling in their own life, cares all that much about people in another country. When the government can find money to fund a foreign war - people are going to start wondering why they can’t find money to fix roads, law enforcement, housing, and other issues back home: It would be far cheaper over all.
In a world where crime has gone up since 2020, while being down from 2013: People are going to see it. And if you live in Seattle, or New York it’s difficult to ignore massive stores closing locations and a growing number of vacant store fronts. And should that problem continue - it’s going to cause further knock on effects. After all: Blank store fronts are not attractive, and if you make them look full - those looking for space are going to presume it’s filled. And these buildings are often times leveraged - and if they reduce lease rates to draw in interest, they may very well have debts called in: And that will hurt the current owners. Worse yet - without revenue coming in, it’s very likely that SOME of the maintenance needed is being avoided.
So while some the Gaza issue is JUST the Gaza issue - my bet, is that to a lot of people, it’s just the socially acceptable excuse. But honestly - it has some legitimacy as well. After all: Supporting the war effort with a lot now, or a smaller amount over a bit of time nets the same result.
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this was a Russian troll campaign, in every tankie on Twitter that fell for it is a moron
The more you delude yourself, the more you erode any chance of a DNC victory in 2028.
Because the standard for Democrats is perfectionism, but the standard for Republicans is “That’s just Trump being Trump.”
In other words, they didn’t think it through, they got suckered by propaganda.
when you are laser focused on a single thing, anything else just slides past you. making life changing decisions with limited information is a uniquely american trait
Supporting genocide seems like a pretty good redline to focus on though. When both candidates promise to maintain or increase the genocide, why does this sham of a democracy deserve to be supported? This electoral system and US imperialism doesn’t have to be endless, partaking in the process only serves to legitimize the horrors commited daily.
As a foreigner, if you voted for a genocider (there was two in this race), I do not think you are human.
Democrats were ready to throw foreigners under the bus so they wouldn’t have to fight fascism. Now they get neither
If the table turns sometime, if I have to pick between genocide in the US and fascism here, well, I hope you have a place to hide lmao
As a foreigner, if you voted for a genocider (there was two in this race), I do not think you are human.
I feel like that’s such an idealistic way of viewing things. Hypothetically, if you had a choice between indirectly supporting genocide or throwing your entire life into chaos you’d rather ruin your own life? If you’re actually willing to ruin your own life for it you’re more passionate about this issue than 99% of the population. For example I don’t have an issue supporting Ukraine, I’ve donated to support packages going to Ukraine. But you won’t find me on the battlefield because there’s a limit to my support and that limit is at not throwing away my life. I guess that makes me inhuman because I could do more and I’m choosing to not to.
If the table turns sometime, if I have to pick between genocide in the US and fascism here, well, I hope you have a place to hide lmao
How hypocritical and vindictive. I won’t do what I consider humane because you deserve it.
Many people gave up the “vote blue no matter who” sentiment after seeing the results of blue politicians in 2016 and 2020. It’s no surprise people are voting with their hearts more than settling for less now.
What’s interesting is that the Republican party welcomed in these neglected voters. Can you blame them? The Democratic party doesn’t even promote progressive policies anymore. The Democratic party is now the pro-war party too.
I’m not surprised that Trump won. Hilary, Harris, and Biden were all terrible choices
Personally I think people like Tulsa Gabbard and Andrew Yang are playing the long game within the Republican party as the Democrats shut down any chance for change.
It’s the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).
No it’s not. Both the trolley problem and the prisoners dilemma are individual event thought experiments.
Real life is different, it is continuous. The rational choice for an individual event can be very different than a continuous one.
Take the prisoner’s dilemma (or game theory) for instance, it is the rational decision (nash equilibrium) to rat your fellow prisoner out but if you have to do it again and again, then the best strategy is to NOT rat out your fellow prisoner (only rat when they ratted you out in the last round).
Reality is often like this, and elections are also like this. It gets complicated real fast.
Voting is an individual event
They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley’s terms, they are consenting to the trolley’s actions.
I used to believe that too once… Once.
I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.
Inaction is also an action. You’re always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.
I agree that people should’ve voted, but I disagree with this one-dimensional line of thinking. I can see the argument that by voting for the democrats their current behaviour and this fucked up system as a whole is warranted. It’s not as simple as “why not vote, it costs you nothing”. By voting this horrible “democracy” is legitimised and the democrats and the system will not change their approach. The US deserves a democracy that actually allows for representation instead of this duopoly of garbage and more garbage
Not voting doesn’t do anything but make you feel better about yourself. No one in power cares that you didn’t vote. They actually love low voter turnout because it’s an easier demographic to hit
I disagree. The margins seem thin enough that people fed up with either party can absolutely ruin them in the swing states. If you were to disagree with one of the parties, you could absolutely give them a signal by not voting. Preferably such a person would also make very clear why they refuse to vote for a party, because otherwise it’s indeed just lazy and empty.
Again, I think that people who do so are shooting themselves (and everyone else) in the foot. But I can see their motivation.
This is actually a very good comparison, thank you.
If you think there was a genuine argument to not vote for Harris over Gaza war crimes, you were amongst those successfully manipulated by Russia. That argument was entirely of America’s enemies’ making as a means to get Trump elected.
Don’t worry. Trump won. You’ll hear a whole lot less about Gaza and genocide now.
Russian bots mostly, but also privileged people who think that a Trump presidency won’t affect them
Sure, Russian bots. But Hasbara likely played a significant role too.
also privileged people who think that a Trump presidency won’t affect them
I’m a privileged person who probably won’t be directly affected by another Trump presidency. Probably. Hopefully.
But anybody who genuinely holds that opinion, and doesn’t care what happens to everybody else, may as well just be a full-on trumper.
Don’t underestimate the pissed off poor. The Dems kept telling them that things weren’t so bad while the Reps said they’d change things.
The changes will of course be worse, but if things are clearly shit, and someone keeps telling you that it’s not that bad, you start to despise those people even if they’re the better choice.
Do you have any examples of Dems telling people things werent bad? The closest things I can think of is dems saying we know things are bad but we are working on them and they are getting better. It feels like a republican talking point that dems think things are good.
“Bidenomics” and “Economy is doing great” and anything and everything involving the word “GDP”
Bidenomics is a right wing attack phrase and I’ve never heard Biden say the economy is doing great. So not sure what your point here was.
You’re right. I guess there’s the problem. I don’t doubt that if I also checked some other memories of Biden’s mistakes I’d find that I remember them how the right wants me to remember them.
Don’t underestimate the pissed off poor. The Dems kept telling them that things weren’t so bad while the Reps said they’d change things.
Okay, but those aren’t the single-issue Gaza voters OP was asking about.
Frankly, they should’ve been what OP was asking about though, because they were a way bigger factor (and always are, in every election, despite the Democrats abject refusal to acknowledge it).
The big group of voters that the Democrats didn’t see coming were the ton of racists and misogynistic assholes (mostly white but latino men also)
- An overly simplistic/naive view of the world. (Not sure what they expect here? Stopping weapons and technology transfer? Maybe the US going to war with Israel to stop the Gaza atrocities? Or are they just expecting something symbolic? If Harris publicly denounced Israel’s actions, would that be enough?)
- Thinking that the US President has more power than they do in reality (Congress and the Courts, checks and balances)
- Some logical fallacies they’ve convinced themselves into believing. False Dilemma Fallacy maybe? https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
What Harris could have done is besides the point. What she did and didn’t do is a matter of record.
But look, focus on what I wrote. If it’s your friend or family member then of course you are going to have a simple and strong reaction. It’s fine to try to explain away the badness, and there is some truth to what you wrote, but if someone just lost their cousin, or their daughter’s house was just bombed, they aren’t going to listen to you. That’s natural; that’s reality.
You should make a Twitter account and follow some channels posting the war crimes committed by Israel. Be sure to watch some gore. A beheaded baby every day with their guts flowing out.
You will understand very quickly if you leave the echo chamber and see what the word genocide really means. Only a monster can justify it.
