not helping lemmy’s extremist-leaning reputation guys
Mod here. This is pretty cut and dry:
No doxxing or promoting violence. Ever.
Please report any and all instances of such behavior so it can be promptly removed.
This thread is now locked.
Then leave? Nobody is telling you to be here. It’s still a free* country.
Oh won’t someone please think of the poor nazis?
Liberals and fascists, name a more iconic duo
Pro-violence Lemmy users and power fantasies in magical worlds where they kill a few dozen people and the world is saved.
I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that if/when violence breaks out, a few people will die.
It won’t be a few if that happens, it won’t be limited to those that chose to fight (on either side), and deaths won’t be the only serious consequence. That’s why other people are asking for level heads.
Being tollerant of an extremist (nazi or fascist) is just plain stupid.
Great! Totally agree. Can you guys make a forum or something separate from Lemmy where you post all of the assassination plans or whatever it is you do?
I’d rather the Lemmy admins not getting arrested day one of Trump’s presidency.
Pointing out who the Nazis are and where to find them isn’t extremist.
Telling other people to commit premeditated murder is, and it’s all over this thread + the original (which I think was taken down).
Anti-fascist action is self-defense.
The Proud Boys and other militias believe the exact same thing, just swap anti-fascist for anti-traitors who are “the enemy within”. You are proving each other’s point, two sets of extremists advocating for whatever it takes, with both POSITIVE they’re doing the right thing.
Fascists: I want systemic violence against anyone that isn’t a white cis het man.
Leftists: I want violence against people who advocate for systemic violence against marginalised groups.
Absolutely undistinguishable :p
Strawman. Yeah, there are differences. It’s not like I support people like Fuentes. I’ve posted several times about him and other hateful people being reprehensible bastards. For months I posted anti-Trump. But in many ways that matter the groups are super close. Both:
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I magically know who should die so I’m right. I’m righteously saving my country, so I don’t need checks and balances or the mandate of the population.
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I don’t care if it escalates national violence, even starts a war and gets others killed - I have the right to make the choice that forces consequences on others.
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Good people are going to cheer, bad people are going to live in fear and give up their wicked ways, and I’m going to be a hero.
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Abandon peaceful, legal options. It doesn’t matter if multiple challenges to my enemy are happening at all levels of government, my way is better.
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I’m powerful enough/my side is that the bad guys will die and we’ll win. I’m so scary and capable, you don’t even know.
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I’m actually going to sit on my ass posting “fuck them” and telling other people to kill for me because it makes me feel good. Just daily indulgence in the worst brand of power fantasies.
For that last one: The doxing thread would have been hilarious if it wasn’t disgusting before it got taken down. People were all “they’re not near me” and “I hope someone else does it”. Buddy, they’re the guys who pick fights at bars and stall until the bouncer arrives then tell everyone else, “You’re lucky I was held back”. If I was wrong there would be a couple hundred folks doing something (and ruining/ending a lot of lives in the process), not just BS on Lemmy. I’m not telling people to actually act - it should be incredibly obvious I’m saying not to. I’m also saying I don’t need to worry about 99.9% of the big tough internet men doing so. The murder fetishists in this thread are clearly all hoping if the message reaches thousands, one mentally unstable murderer will actually act so they can cheer from the bleachers without consequences.
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Not on the side of killing people here but one side wants to kill minorities and other groups while the other wants to kill people who want to kill minorities.
Would you say painting WWII Nazis as evil and fighting a war against them is the same as them invading Poland to subjugate the natives?
one side wants to kill minorities and other groups while the other wants to kill people who want to kill minorities.
A 2nd response after thinking about that part of your question: Both sides want to kill millions, without trial, on the basis of perceived danger. Each is absolutely certain they’ll know who should die. There’s no moral high ground. No rules of war, no official oversight, just civilians murdering their countrymen in large numbers. Demands that, if acted upon, will escalate into enormous bloodshed without giving less destructive, more legal barriers a chance. The people pushing violence are unrepentantly promoting the idea that “if they want to kill then we’ll kill them first”.
BTW, neither side is going to kill millions unless their actions incite a civil war. Neither side is going to have the public support they think they do. What they will do is make sure things like martial law happen. If you think enough New Yorkers, Californians, etc are marching to Illinois and Florida to kill all the fascists then you’re mistaken. The US outside of Lemmy and other forums may be angry, but they aren’t anywhere near that mindset of “uproot my life and kill other Americans”. I’m Canadian and I don’t want to see the US military devolve into the mess of full-on civil war, but some people either dismiss the possibility or actually want it.
Would you say painting WWII Nazis as evil and fighting a war against them is the same as them invading Poland to subjugate the natives?
I wouldn’t say that, but I understand why you’d ask. The Nazis weren’t opposed by sending any civilian angry enough into Germany to shoot civilians they thought were fascists. When Germany invaded Poland, other countries formally declared war (although it took several months before they actually engaged in combat.) Nazis were brought down by armies, not the equivalent of the portion of Lemmy/Reddit/TikTok users willing to engage in mob justice. In another comment I wrote why I think formal war with rules of war is different than vigilante killing. In a 2nd, I said that if it comes down to army vs. army civil war I’d say fight hard. In yet another, I told someone they were trying to be the WW2 Allies without the army or mandate.
I also wrote about the likely consequence of vigilante killings including handing Trump and the extreme right all the excuses they could ever want, sabotaging legitimate efforts opposing/delaying Trump by organizations like the Pentagon and state governments, and getting their lives ended/ruined. Some folks are trying to equate promoting assassinations with the Allies’ fight against the Axis, and it’s just not the same in characteristics or consequence. Please also bear in mind the killings are being targeted at podcasters and unknown civilians with the assumption that killing these “ground level” people will sort things out. I have yet to see someone say “forget killing the little guys, let’s make plans to kill Trump, his cabinet, and Republican lawmakers”.
Ah, so you aren’t opposed to killing fascists, you just want it to be done on the orders of a military.
Yes if it comes to that, and kept bounded by rules of war. Accepting surrender, treatment of POWs, avoiding civilian casualties, rules of engagement and so on. The US isn’t there yet IMO, by which I mean a significant % of people willing to leave their lives behind to fight other Americans. There are serious legal and administrative attempts being made to block the worst of Trump’s policies. But if the US does in fact have a civil war, I am cheering for those opposing fascists. I don’t know how a 43-year-old Canadian could contribute, but I’d be willing to at minimum donate to things like humanitarian aid for sure.
I didn’t tell anybody to commit murder. I’m just watching hopefully.
Ok, I have those thoughts sometimes too, especially when I’m angry and hopeless. I usually cut them off because ultimately I don’t think I have the right to kill people outside of the context of a war etc. But there’s nothing illegal about thinking. Clarence Darrow: “I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure".
A lot of folks are calling for actual violence though. It’s all over the thread. Incitement is different than just wishing Trump and his cronies would croak.
I am genuinely curious why do you think that you have a right to kill someone in war but not outside of it. Like what are the main differences there (unless you are using law as a basis for this)
No worries. War is unavoidable at times - dictators exist, people get desperate, and so on. There are legalities involved, and they are a concern but aren’t my main concern. Morally, there’s a difference to me between killing someone because I hate them and killing someone because I’m a combatant and so are they. There are strict rules to war that help are supposed to keep things largely ethical - I understand war is never going to be “clean”. Policies like rules of engagement, being able to surrender, treatment of POWs, genuinely avoiding targetting civilians (the world could use more of that right now) and stopping when your country tells you to all matter to me.
Soldiers are not asked to make decisions about who they’ll kill (I mean which armies, not rules of engagement), so the individuals are not being relied upon to determine justice. That is a big difference from vigilantism, where a person or mob of people decides who lives and dies. Ideally the leaders of the military and country are making sure war is a necessary last resort and conducted according to rules, and if that isn’t happening then other nations should be condemning and opposing them. It’s like how I think nations need prisons, but I don’t think I should be allowed to take someone hostage because I’m pretty sure they deserve it.
But haven’t you seen countless cases of examples where those strict rules for war have been completely ignored? Russia is just ignoring them completely in Ukraine, Israel is just straight-up conducting a genocide and no western country gives a shit apparently, for the US there are countless cases of shit like the My Lai massacre or the US sponsorships of terrorist organisations in South America…
States are just big systems that exist to give people a monopoly on violence.
Perhaps you didn’t know this, but Russia IS being opposed by to the tune of billions of dollars of support and widespread condemnation for their war of aggression including meaningful economic sanctions and asset seizures. It’s facilitated the killing of just under 700,000 Russian soldiers and tons of equipment according to the Ukrainian government. The only reason NATO won’t deploy troops is because no one wants WW3. Nations are even now considering escalating their support following the deployment of North Koreans.
Israel IS being opposed by huge swathes of the world. If the US (and to a lesser extent other Western countries) weren’t providing diplomatic and military cover for them, they’d have been censured in the UN for decades now and potentially stopped. Long story short, the US is just as at fault for the genocide as Israel due to providing the diplomatic/military means via decades of “blank check” support. So do you think US policy means that civilians should start killing Zionists in America and abroad? Should civilians have killed Biden and his whole cabinet a few months into the war because boundaries on war are being broken?
As far as US atrocities, I don’t think they are going as unnoticed worldwide as you might think. I won’t put words in your mouth, but do you want me to believe that other countries should be sending civilians to kill American voters? If not, then why did you mention those massacres in the context of our conversation about mob killing vs. formal war?
Your argument that rules shouldn’t matter because sometimes they are broken is flawed. I’m not a warmonger, quite the opposite. However, you won’t get me to agree that civilians should believe they have the moral obligation to murder other civilians because wars are sometimes unjust. There are unjust trials. Doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have the right to a trial before they’re killed. There are bad politicians, doesn’t mean all politics should be banned. There are bad marriages. There are bad police. There are bad doctors.
it isn’t murder if they are an enemy combatant.
Combatant is different. If this was a civil war or something similar (and thus ruled by laws of war) and someone was a combatant you’d be absolutely correct. But the people here are talking about killing a civilian, as civilians, while not at war, and without trial which is definitely murder.
Who gets to decide it’s a civil war?
Historically it’s leaders like presidents, governors, legislative bodies, and generals. Not forum posts.
Historically
You mean the only other civil war in US history, in the 19th century? Are you actually suggesting that the lack of “forum posts” means anything at all?
Welcome to the 21st century. The world is different than last time.
I guess if you make the 134 million guns owners in America enraged and frightened for their life by providing concrete examples of killing them you can make sure it’s a civil war.
Oh no, is Lemmy going to be seen as two anti-nazi? WTF kind of take is this?
Fuck Illinois Nazis
I might get hate for this… But do we want stoop their level? Also, doxxing is also illegal in most countries.
It aint stooping to their level its embracing tradition, which is to say the proud tradition of shooting fascists, Pinkertons, lawmen, and annoying as fuck cultists.
You will get hate for it, but not because you’re wrong. Also, while doxing is technically legal in the US if it’s just posting a person’s details like address, it becomes illegal “if it’s part of an effort to truly threaten or harm someone, if it intentionally inflicts emotional distress, or if it invades someone’s privacy by revealing a highly offensive personal fact about that person without providing the public information about a matter of public concern.” Courts have decided malicious doxing is not protected by the First Amendment.
I’m pretty sure the original doxing thread was removed, and I’m willing to bet there’s more to it than the admin who said “fuck reports, it’s staying up” having a change of heart regarding morality.
I hate illinois nazis.
Fuck Nazis
To people advocating violence in this thread - let’s just ignore the immorality of convincing civilians to assault and kill other civilians. It’s clear that vigilantism is something these folks are unrepentant about. So instead:
- If people start dying Trump will have the outrage-inducing incidents he DREAMS of. If someone kills Fuentes/others the cops will seize and search all their electronic devices and social media accounts. They’ll uncover all this violent vigilante rhetoric that radicalized the murderer and it will make the news. Trump will get all the proof he could want that “the enemy within” is a lethal threat, and he’ll make all these social media posts about “Trumpers are Nazis and Nazis aren’t people and only deserve bullets in their heads” national headlines. Fuentes and any others killed will be martyrs. Legal opposition that state governments, courts, civil liberty organizations, etc. are mustering will be swept away in the wake of radical left domestic terrorism and the fear it brings. Similar to how 9/11 turned into 20 years of war.
- Some people here are apparently living in a magical world where they punch millions and the Nazis fall to the ground wailing “Mein gott, I am undone! What a fool I’ve been. I’ll be a better person!” and everyone around them cheers and promises to oppose Trump and vote Democrat. Even worse are the ones who want to start shooting people, as if killing extremist, insane media figures like Fuentes will make their hateful audience concede and become good citizens. This morning I literally had someone reference Inglorious Basterds as proof the nation would rise up and support them. Life isn’t a Tarantino film and you aren’t Brad Pitt.
- What is actually going to happen if you punch these people is they will pull guns on you in self-defence and kill you, then get acquitted in conservative courts because you assaulted them. Remember crybaby Kyle Rittenhouse? If you shoot them, they will start killing people back. The plans to beat up and shoot fascists en masse is a wet dream for domestic terror organizations/militias like the Proud Boys. Violence won’t prevent purges, it will start them.
- Basically all of these keyboard warriors aren’t going to actually do any of the really illegal punching and killing they are so proud to demand. They’re quick to say all Nazis must die right now to prevent “tens of millions of deaths”, but THANKFULLY it doesn’t seem like they’re actually killing the Nazis near them (and they really, really shouldn’t). So far it’s all “I don’t live near him” and “it sure would be a shame if someone else did it <wink>”. For essentially everyone posting this crap, again thankfully, it’s just internet power fantasies and hoping someone impressionable commits the crime and takes the consequences.
I’m not defending fascist trash like Fuentes, but I am opposing these calls for his death at the hands of angry internet “warriors”. Instead of telling everyone to kill their fellow citizens, how about protesting and visibly showing support for the women and minorities being targeted? How about making sure every American knows about measures like Gavin Newsom “Trump-proofing” California, or all the people and states already setting up legal challenges to things like mass deportations. What about making sure people know the Pentagon is furiously planning to resist and delay controversial orders? I assure you the Pentagon, state authorities and civil liberties organizations have far more effective and legal plans than angry Lemmy users convinced they’re going to punch and kill their way to a safe nation.
I dont think violence is generally demanded here though a certain amount of roleplaying is necessary to make it feel genuine. It is more that people want him to understand how it feels to have violence towards you a very real possibility because someone is painting a target on your back. Fuentes him self wont resort to violence mainly because he is just a cowardly manipulator and will never be a part of the mob (unless for occasional show). I think it is useful for such mob behaviour enablers to understand how it feels to be on the other end of the stick.
In a nutshell: If they hit one side of your face, turn the other cheek. Repeat it until both your face fucking hurts and they think it’s violent of you instead not kneeling down, not spreading your arms wide open, not putting your tongue between your teeth, not lifting your chin, so they could just kick your chin while holding you down, until you eventually bite off your tongue. Maybe after that, they will have remorse and not continue kicking you to death on the ground.
They already have “violent vigilante rhetoric”. They send bomb threats to anyone remotely pro-LGBTQ+, because some Jewish collaborant told them they’re grooming kids by their mere existence. The moral high ground won’t save any of us.
You know one of the reasons why they’re calling us “cucks”? Because we will take the moral high ground every time they hit a new low, including on positions we have never really hold. Remember all the “why are you so intolerant of intolerance?” posts? That caused many of us to just go full out tolerant of nazis, to not appear “anti free speech”, which for them means “free from criticism and with a guaranteed audience”, not “free expression until you don’t hurt others”. Hell, at the end days of my “nihilistic edgelord” phase, if I wanted to joke about Stalin alongside of Hitler, I got called out on the former, because the latter “only killed 600 000 (!) people”. (A number from a then common and dumb holocaust denialist theory of “they accidentally put one extra zero there”)
In a nutshell
In a nutshell you don’t understand effective resistance, just violence. Your whole 1st paragraph is little more than torture porn - likely because you can’t argue with my specific points intellectually so you want to appeal to extremes of emotion.
Think. What do you suppose will accomplish more to slow and stop Trump? The Pentagon, state governments, courts, and civil rights organizations with their legal challenges and administrative knowledge? Or a couple hundred Lemmy warriors “storming” Chicago hunting podcasters and Illinois fascists who’ll they’ll magically identify and slaughter because you’re all supheroes apparently? And that’s assuming all of you aren’t just talking just talking tough because it makes you feel good, which has odds of very slim to none at all. Even -if- you could and actually would, do not sabotage real efforts towards foiling Trump by killing or assaulting people (not to mention your lives). If a civil war breaks out and it’s army vs. army that’s different, but the US isn’t near there yet and in the meantime you’re trying to be the WW2 Allies without the army or mandate.
They already have “violent vigilante rhetoric”.
“They’re evil so I should be allowed to do it too.” Let’s forget morality issues - in the context of murdering people like podcasters it doesn’t even make sense to race to the bottom. It will accomplish almost nothing and cause a host of problems. Let’s say miracles are real - you aren’t full of crap, you don’t get caught or killed, and you actually go murder Fuentes in cold blood or someone else like him. What do you honestly think the right’s response is going to be? “Oh crap, we better stop hating”? Creating martyrs and millions of angry, fearful people with guns is not the path to a safe nation.
You know one of the reasons why they’re calling us “cucks”?
Oh no, the incels and fascists on the extreme right don’t like me! …Are you really trying to tell me you’re upset about their insults? They can say whatever they want about me. Hell, you can too. I’m going to sleep just fine tonight without the approval of short-sided murder fetishists, regardless of whether they are your guys or Trump’s.
I wish I had your eloquence
That’s a wonderful compliment and I genuinely smiled. Everyone has their skills, and I’m 100% positive you exceed me in other ways. We all contribute.
Your points were a little wordy, but I think I can summarize this pretty succinctly:
- Republicans are fascists, and they’re in charge. Fall in line or you deserve what they do to you.
- I don’t like incivility and violence, but I don’t have any viable alternatives to offer. Regardless, fall in line or you’re actually the problem.
- Republicans are fascists, and they’re in charge. Fall in line or you deserve what they do to you. (x2)
- *screaming baby noises*
he could not, in fact, summarize it
- I gave alternatives at the bottom, about how to resist in a way that won’t hand the right everything they dream about, and get people killed (including a lot of people talking big if they follow through on their words).
- I gave alternatives at the bottom (x2)
- I gave alternatives at the bottom (x3), including examples of people already prepping resistance.
- You say “waah”, I say luckily, almost all of you (probably 100%) won’t do a single act you’re so happy to push for. Tell me tough boy, when are you personally planning on putting up instead of shutting up? I don’t think you will - I’m damn near positive you’ll just ragepost and grumble about how you totally would have and how heroic that makes you. And to be clear I definitely don’t think you should even if you’re mentally unbalanced enough to do so.
Wait, you’re acting like it’s a bad thing
Who?
A literal neo-nazi. He was on Infowars with NazYe too.
I don’t get that. Doesn’t Fuentes realize Kanye is black? Doesn’t Kanye realize Fuentes is a white supremacist? Why are they in cahoots?
Doesn’t Kanye realize Fuentes is a white supremacist?
Fuentes sounds like a Latino name. Trump should have him deported.
/s
Lol, don’t expect neonazis to be internally consistent when they can use “one of the good ones” to further the narrative against their class.
Right wing influencer who who tweeted out “Your body, my choice” in response to the abortion issue.
Yeah fuck that guy. You make your bed you sleep in.
Shoot, I guess I missed it. Can someone re-post?
His house, the people’s choice. The information being available just allows people to make an informed decision of whether or not to use it, and in what way.
I’ve been labelling a bunch of people in this thread, mostly with “likes doxxing”, but you my friend get “LOVES doxxing”. Congrats 🎉
Oh no a literal Russian asset might see some semblance of repercussions.
That’s so horrible
Die mad about it 🤷♂️
