California Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a new law on Wednesday that aims to stop other states from prosecuting doctors and pharmacists who mail abortion pills to patients in places where the procedure is banned.
California already has a law protecting doctors who provide abortions from out-of-state judgements. But that law was designed to protect doctors who treat patients from other states who travel to California.
The new law goes further by forbidding authorities from cooperating with out-of-state investigations into doctors who mail abortion pills to patients in other states. It also bans bounty hunters or bail agents from apprehending doctors, pharmacists and patients in California and transporting them to another state to stand trial for providing an abortion.
Other states, including New York and Massachusetts, have similar laws. But California’s law also bars state-based social media companies — like Facebook — from complying with out-of-state subpoenas, warrants or other requests for records to discover the identity of patients seeking abortion pills.
We’re just doing the whole routine with the underground railroad and civil war all over again, aren’t we. This country is so stupid.
Except this time, the postal service is involved and it’s illegal to interfere with the mail. It’s a federal offense. State laws do not affect that. So any woman in, say, Texas who gets these pills will be doing so without risk to herself. And now there’s no risk to the doctor either if she gets it from one in California.
They can’t interfere with them getting it, but can prohibit usage right?
How can they prove that?
“Friend” or family member tipping off police and/or subpoenas for electronic messages are two ways that spring to mind, but those can be prevented if people are vigilant
People need to learn not to allow conservatives in their lives, including family members.
Exactly, and if you have a fundamentalist Christian friend who seems like a nice person (if you volunteer in animal shelters or food banks or the like you run into a lot of these), know that they will get you arrested without a moment’s doubt and just pray extra hard for you while you’re sitting in a jail cell
Yes, this, so much this.
True. If people aren’t careful, they could get caught. But you could say that about weed in Texas too.
Exactly, it’s a complete disgrace that people will have to be mindful of this crap just to get the reproductive healthcare they need, but if the government can’t stop a people from transporting big old stinky plants on a regular basis good luck stopping people from delivering a few pills on the occasions when they’re needed
The Polish government developed a way using tandem mass spectrometry article
I guess theoretically they could do that, but I doubt deep-cut Republican Texas could afford it.
Amazingly, there’s always no funds for relief, plenty for oppression.
At least until there are substantial law changes, I’m pretty sure that would require a warrant
True, and I am not a lawyer, but I think a judge would be able to issue a warrant if there was reasonable suspicion of a “crime” being committed in that local jurisdiction. Or would something I am overlooking prevent such a warrant? It seems like the woman could be legally vulnerable in such a case.
There’s still the wrinkle of sending prescription drugs through the mail is heavily regulated, the average doctor or pharmacist isn’t allowed to just put the pill in an envelope without committing mail fraud.
I assume the doctor is still not able to visit those states (or another state without this law) without the fear of being arrested? Such a shitty country we live in.
It’s all about State’s Rights.
…To deny your freedoms.
Literally every republican woman I know is a single mom to a deadbeat dad.
Crazy how their rhetoric has been flipped on them. These would be nice people otherwise, but they’re surrounded by shitbags so they feel they also need to be shitty in order to fit in.
Yeah or land at one of their airports. Which is annoying if they are a hub.
I thought airports are federal jurisdictions?
The California Catholic Conference opposed the law, arguing the state is “engaging in ideological colonization against states and citizens that do not want abortion.”
Fucking bring it. California is one of the largest economies in the world. I’d like to see states like Louisiana and Alabama try to fuck with us. Texas might be able to go toe-to-toe, but they’re about the only abortion-banning state that’d even stand a chance.
FUCK THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE FOR THESE MONSTERS.
A good move from Gavin Newsom.
It’s very literally interstate commerce when presented in that fashion.
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the US Constitution specifically empowers Congress “to regulate commerce with foreign nations, among states, and with the Indian tribes” (emphasis mine).
If that doesn’t satisfy someone’s definition of “Constitutional Originalism”, then I don’t know what will.
Suffice to say: all of these regressive laws around trying to prosecute abortion-related travel and transport of goods that are coming from the legislatures of those states are absolutely unenforceable and categorically bullshit.
Why would Republicans care about the Constitution? This isn’t a School Shooting!
Based
While this is great postering; this is a law that will undoubtedly be ignored due to the rendition clause of the US Constitution.
Edit: after looking into this some more there is an argument that if someone has conclusively never been in the requesting during the offense, another state cannot request rendition, see Hyatt v People (1903). It was reaffirmed in Michigan v. Doran (1978).
Based on precedent there has to be no evidence whatsoever that a person was present in the state. It cannot be a question of fact or alibi for the crime itself. Ie., if a state asserts the person was present in the state and the person asserts they were not as an alibi defense, the person would still need to be extradited and can assert the alibi defense in their trial.
I think based on this reading my initial take was wrong, but I am not so sure how true this is with some more modern enactments like the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act.
Here is a law review article that discusses related issues in more depth: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1558&context=clr#:~:text=Without intervention%2C anti-abortion states,the people that support them.
That covers people who commit a crime in state A and then flee to state B. It’s not clear whether it’s even possible for a citizen of state B to commit a crime in state A without entering state A.
Okay I think current precedent is consistent with your view; thank you for providing an opportunity to learn more about the extradition clause. Constructive presence is not currently considered in the context of the extradition clause.
I am by no means a Trump supporter but I believe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander; Trump was never present in Georgia leading up to the electoral count as far as I am aware, yet he is charged with RICO under state law in Georgia. Do you think he could have simply fought rendition to Georgia?
He made a phone call to Georgia, to influence the Secretary of State to commit fraud. That’s a crime. The victims are the citizens of the State of Georgia. If I shoot you over the state line am I innocent of a crime in your state? No.
This isn’t the 1800s where you flee over the county line and they can’t pursue you.
That is exactly my argument.
Your argument is bad because doctors in one state are not committing crimes in other states. Unless they are leaving their state to perform an operation. Mailing something like medicine may be a crime but these are not controlled substances.
Prescribing FDA approved medication for a valid reason is not a crime that has any victim, regardless of what politicians say.
Could he? Yes. But in a conspiracy all participants are equally legally responsible for each overt act.
It’s not at all clear that this would violate the Extradition Clause or Extradition Act which implements it. The offense in question isn’t illegal in California and doctors practicing in California won’t have fled from the States that may seek to bring charges.
This law will give California governors another reason to ignore requests from other States, requiring them to try their luck with a writ of Mandamus from federal courts.
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I wonder which laws are going to get struck down first, the ones trying to criminalize things outside their state or the ones decriminalizing things.
Idk about getting struck down, but it seems like laws inside your jurisdiction are going to stand in a way laws outside don’t really. Where it gets tricky is going to be swaths of the country where certain people can’t go for fear of being arrested. Feels like a loosening of federalism to me and more like different countries in a way.
yeah imagine if your flying from new york to california and your plane has to divert to texas due to an emergency
Good, states have no business removing abortion rights it should be strictly a federal matter.
it should be strictly a
federalpersonal matterSo is marijuana legislation.
do this with weed as well
What a weird comment. They are not even remotely comparable.
They can’t do this with weed until the federal government makes it legal because interstate commerce is under their jurisdiction
Someone please ask him to ask Joanna when the new album is coming.
Im pretty sure this is federally illegal/unconstitutional. You cant undermine a states law ex post facto as per section 10.
Feel free to correct me if im wrong
Well the offense is being committed outside of the state where the law is. You could also argue that the states banning abortions are the ones infringing on federal law and constitutional rights, because they’re trying to enforce their laws on doctors living outside their jurisdiction.
Can you get in trouble for sending a small amount of methamphetamine through the mail for someone in California to consume if you live in Oregon? Its legal in Oregon. Why should Oregon lawmakers punish the person sending the meth if its only illegal in California?
That would be a federal crime.
The USPS will happily punish you for that action.
I shouldnt have used a fedrally illegal substance as an example 😀
I suppose if this is not seen as illegal then they should also make buying prescription drugs from out of country legal. This ends war on drugs right? Right?
This is still a bad example due to how state and federal law works. A better example would be me buying an old school steel jerry can from say Idaho and having it shipped to where I live here in California. Even though the sale of such jerry cans are illegal in California ownership isnt, and I didnt buy it from an instate vendor.
Also I dont know if old school steel jerry cans are illegal in Idaho I was just using it as an example, they are illegal to sell in California.
Yes but the example here would be someone in Cali ordering a jerry can from Idaho and the company in Idaho mailing it to Cali. Travelling to Idaho to buy a jerry can and bring it back would be fine, but in this case getting it to Cali is a part of the purchase. The purchase is being made across state lines for something that is legal in the state the transaction is made (Idaho) but illegal in the state it’s sent to (Cali). It basically boils down to whether the act of mailing is illegal, I think.
I’m sure there must be an established precedent or something already.
Perhaps I explained it a tad badly, but that was exactly what I was trying to say.
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My bad
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I get what your saying. Obviously your example doesn’t quite work, because meth is illegal in both states and federally. What we’re looking for is something legal federally and in one state, but not the other. I’m sure there must be some established precedent for this kind of thing.
This law reminds me of a similar issue before the civil war. From what I remember, the issue was that northern states were forced to send people that escaped enslavement back to the south. The north was sick of that crap, stopped, and the south got upset and formed their failed cessation.
Sending people as a human right violation that they saw breaking the rules set by declaration of independence. Yes the underground railroad was breaking constitutional habeas corpus rules but they were also breaking rules of common man.
Agin may be wrong but i remember that the north used this as the justification for harboring fugitives. This doesnt hold for this case , though, as its breaking interstate ex post facto laws. Its also breaking full faith and credit as stipulated by article IV in the constitution.
I have a feeling supreme court will come into play here pretty soon.
So do you likewise feel it’s illegal for Texas to punish women who cross state lines to get an abortion?
No because you are free to move between states asvyou wish. Whatever you do in a state is privy to the states laws of which they are in. Its kinda like how you can go to utah, get a polygamist marriage and if you go back to any other state you will go to jail.
I disagree and here’s why.
The 10th amendment does not constrain the state governments, and this is not an ex post facto law.
States are not required to enforce the laws of other states, and generally do not have any legal standing to challenge other states’ laws.
It is generally not legal for a state to prosecute someone for actions that took place outside of their jurisdiction.
The problem is this is akin to aiding and abetting on interstate level as an after the fact.
Article four section two states that judges are not allowed to overrule interstate law.
Article four section two states that judges are not allowed to overrule interstate law.
I don’t see that.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
Sorry I meant section 1 with full faith and credit. NAL so idunno wtf im talking about but section 2 seems that this only applies to people fleeing
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.
It’s probably fine, as I understand it. The law only concerns what parties under state jurisdiction may do. Federal authorities, which would be involved in an inter-state arrest like this, would not be affected.
It’s similar to sanctuary city laws, which simply state that city and state officials from cooperating with federal immigration authorities. They don’t make it illegal for those workers to operate; they simply make those officials do all the work themselves.
You see, sanctuary cities works because thats for human bodies not pills. This is why Texas is allowed to ship undocumented people to different states without reprecussion. However, protecting people for illegal actions done in other states is not OK. If its illegal to take the medication in Utah after 18 weeks, California needs to respect that.
The fundamental point is that it is not the responsibility of California to enforce the laws of Utah. If Utah wants enforcement, they can do it themselves through the appropriate channels, namely federal law enforcement and by dealing with people who actually fall under its jurisdiction, which California doctors do not.
I just think those doctors might get hit with a federal crime to go around state laws. Its like saying its ok for a company to sell interstate without taxes as long as the state doesnt find out wink wink
A judge in New York would not see you about anything that isn’t a crime not committed in new York. Crimes have to be tried in the state where they took place. Law enforcement from different states may work together to bring you to that state where the crime happened but if the law enforcement in the state you are in doesn’t recognize the laws from that state then they can’t basically go fuck themselves and as long as you stay outta that state you’re good to go
I’m sure he’ll be removing the prohibition on mailing mushroom spores into the state as to not be hypocritical right?
We get it, you do drugs.
I specifically choose spores because California treats them differently than most of the rest of the country and there is nothing illegal about them until and unless they are grown out. I was pointing out the apparent lack of congruence between the stand Newsom is taking here and how California state law treats a similar situation differently when the roles are reversed.
We get it, you care more about another user’s personal habits than a state government’s policies, because drugs are bad, mmkay?
I’m sure you could give yourself an abortion by taking too many shrooms but there are much easier ways.
Can shrooms do that?
If you believe hard enough, shrooms can do anything.
Good whataboutism there.
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But that’s a Federal violation, so not the same thing at all.
It’s not a violation of anything except California, Idaho and Georgia penal law.
