Say you want to contribute to a project and find out the only way to do so is by discussing the issue on IRC or the mailing list, then submitting the patch per email.
I spent a lot of time and energy doing that years ago and don’t want to do it anymore. Mailing lists suck because you’re subscribed to a billion things you don’t want to hear about. IRC…honestly…the world has just moved past it.
I’m sad the world moved past IRC. It was always chock full of tech geniuses and underground nerd shit. The normies can have discord
I’m still amazed that people consider proprietary app Discord the successor to IRC
I’m surprised discord is so commonly used with such a horribly unintuitive UX. I can’t recall all my problems with it, but I remember absolutely hating using it at first, as a person with early adopter tendencies.
This is my sentiment too and I asked the question because I was surprised that some new projects were actually being started with exactly these 2 dinosaurs. It felt offputting - as if they were trying to keep people away.
Lemmy doesn’t support questionnaires, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of those who like those 2 technologies were 40+, maybe even 50+.
it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of those who like those 2 technologies were 40+, maybe even 50+.
I don’t think it should surprise anyone if people with more experience and skills are more comfortable with simple tools than the rest of us. They’ve had more time to find good workflows for those tools, after all.
It might be more interesting to ask why people prefer any one comms method over another. For example, do they like irc/email because they’re old dogs who can’t learn new tricks, or because those are open systems that can’t be taken over by some greedy corporation?
more comfortable with simple tools than the rest of us
That really depends on your definition of “simple”. Swimming across a river is simple, but hard. All you need is your body. Using a boat is easy, but complicated (you need to know how to drive a boat). So yeah, it’s “simple” but it’s not easy, IMO.
Agree with many of the other comments here saying that they’d be very wary of such a project based on what these choices say about the project’s maintainers. Something else is that while I have real affection for email and particularly IRC based on past experience, I don’t think these two are without problems. Email is so asynchronous that many folks feel obligated to treat writing messages to a list more formally. This is not totally misguided since everyone subscribed gets this message delivered to them. IRC, on the other hand, is so synchronous that you should reasonably worry if anyone will be there to talk with, and about whether or not there are searchable archives.
Something (like GitHub) that can be quick but is also perfectly serviceable for asynchronous communication really does have advantages, imho.
Mailing lists intimidate me but I haven’t ever tried to communicate by one. IRC is probably fine.
I’ll be honest though, I’m not going to submit a patch to a mailing list unless there are pretty clear and easy instructions. Forking a project and opening a pull request on whatever forge (like GitHub, GitLab, and others) is easy. I probably do it once every three months or so when I find a bug I know I can fix. Mailing lists are just enough trouble (with my current level of understanding) that I’m probably not going to do it.
I’ll give an example. I found a bug in the JDK that was fixed in 17 but not in 11 and I was trying to figure out how to report it or backport it myself. It was crazy the amount of hoops I needed to jump through and I gave up. I’m not saying the project should be different so it fits my needs or anything, I’m just using this as an example of hurdles discouraging me from contributing. I think the vast majority of devs are probably at the same place and don’t want to fool with mailing lists. (I’m not saying projects should stop using them.)
To anyone interested, there is a comprehensive tutorial about how to use Git with email to contribute to projects like these.
One issue with IRC is that there’s no archiving by default. That means discussions and context for decisions are lost. This can be fixed, though. But the default setup for social chat isn’t optimal for project planning.
That’s where any sort of forum would work much better, in my opinion. Also, unlike mails with 8+ replies, it’s much easier to follow and organize
I don’t necessarily think this has anything to do with mails per se but with the way people use them, which nowadays is just top post all the things
This is not a problem inherent to mail though. If you look at some thread on Lemmy or reddit, you essentially see the same problem. A user posts a long text or comment and makes four, five points that would warrant addressing further. Ideally, you would craft four, five answers and post them as four, five replies, thus giving the discussion a nice structure. What happens instead is that people craft one long reply and keep the mud balling rolling.
Good communication is almost never a question of technology I’d argue.
IRC is fine, so are mailing lists; I use both, plus various git forges, to contribute to open source projects.
IRC is still going strong on OFTC and Libera.chat
I get that the younger folks like discord, but seriously it’s a proprietary mess that locks everything behind a wall and tries to extract payment from each and every user.
If you host thelounge using IRC is quite cool. As you get a better experience with backed up messages and stuff.
Lounge looks pretty cool
deleted by creator
I totally agree longterm projects are better off using github or email.
Here is the crux for lively discussions using discord/IRC comes more natural. But whilst it facilitates easier flowing communication it fails to preserve it.
IRC and email work fine for me. Leagues better than having it locked away behind Discord’s policies and whims.
An issue/patch tracker (and maybe a wiki) would be nice, but I don’t feel they’re necessary. The linux kernel manages without them, after all.
I think it’s super based. All these clowns talking about open source while using Discord and GitHub (yes, that’s me included). You want to submit a bug report to Git itself? Well, you gotta send a bug report to the mailing list. Then some guy will be like “oh shit can you fix it also?” and I’m like “haha no” so the dude submits a fix himselg within 4 hours, and obtains the raging hard boner of internet developer clout
Great system, pgp keys are actually useful. And everyone knows you have to be at least an 8/10 in handsomeness to be running an IRC server. Also, Matrix is trash, I’m serious, modern IRC is cool
What do you dislike about Matrix?
Oh it’s just an over complicated pile of low quality stuff. Still substantially behind XMPP, which was a fine solution. Somehow still behind IRCv3 in terms of raw usability and apps too. IRCv3 is a new spec that made a lot of improvements
I investigated all three in depth and decided IRCv3 is what I want to use for my server / apps. I even run a public web client that acts like Discord. IRC has the bigger communities still
If you really care about encryption, maybe there’s a reason you’d do something different, but I just want private chat servers with good UX
Personally I am comfortable with that as long as there is a public git repo. An issue tracker is the one thing I’d miss the most. I think how well this goes down will greatly depend on the project’s target audience.
notmuch is a project that I follow closely and very occasionally contribute to that works this way.I agree with those saying mailing lists are intimidating. I don’t know if others are using dedicated tools or something but I find web based mailing list UIs just incomprehensibly bad and difficult to navigate.
Most web-based mailing list UIs are honestly incredibly bad, but you don’t need to use them, you can choose any email client you want.
The problem with mailing lists is that no mailing list provider ever supports “subscribe to this message tree”.
As a result, either you get constant spam, or you don’t get half the replies.
I sort messages from mailing lists into different mail folders, and my client (Gnus) supports a threaded view of messages (and I can press ‘k’ on a message to mark the entire thread as read), so this isn’t a big issue for me.
If mailing lists had a view like reddit / lemmy / slashdot / hackernews, I might be more willing to use them, but that wouldn’t solve contributions for me. I have no idea how to format emails to comment on code and then follow ensuing discussions. And how would CI work?
Email how to: https://useplaintext.email
Small change:
git diff origin master > mycontribution.patchand paste it into email body.Big change: same as small, but add as attachment.
Subscribe to coreutils mailing list - low enough volume to not get overwhelmed and established enough to get a feel of the culture.
If you feel like learning more about it, there is a great tutorial available:
Both are heavy targets of spamming and take considerable effort to maintain
True for everything on the open internet though.
Case and point: https://social.anoxinon.de/@Codeberg/111080409541766357
I like IRC and still use it daily to keep up with other hobbyists. Then again, vintage computers are my main hobby horse and of course those circles are gonna lean towards platforms that remain usable on a VIC-20.
I’m too
oldyoung to deal with this. Probably wouldn’t contributeSame. Presented with those options, I just don’t contribute 🤷
This is ideal for me. I refuse to use Discord period and only use Slack only for direct client work (when they request that we use it.)
Mailing lists are great imho but I’m older than most people probably on these communities. So I’m very familiar with this.
I do think a ticket tracker is useful/required though.
