What irks me the most is the spinelessness of a lot of mods. Shadow banning and banning without an explanation just striffling free speech without acountability. Freedom of expression should not be subject to the whims of individuals!
If this gets me banned than you are worse than spez
make your own/move instances? isnt that the beauty of the fediverse?
It’s a non-solution. Self hosting doesn’t stop other instances from banning you.
Freedom of speech means that you won’t be jailed by the government for speaking your mind even when your position is not popular.
Freedom of speech does not mean that everyone gets to speak and be heard on any subject they desire to whoever they want. It also does not mean that everyone, or anyone, wants to hear it. Individuals are free to censor you as much as they want.
Interaction is a community effort with a social contract that everyone tries to behave within the bounds of the community rules. If you break those rules, even if for a good reason, it is not unreasonable for the community to object.
Your reply sounds like you disagree with me about something but I have no idea what.
You pointed out that self hosting doesn’t prevent bans, and they were essentially saying that anyone concerned with digging bans reeks of entitlement when they demand to be heard on platforms where they aren’t wanted.
No. I just felt like you did not understand how free speech and censorship worked.
Creating an instance so you have a platform to speak from is always an option, but other instances having the ability to block that instance is not a sign of it being broken. It means the system works as intended.
I haven’t said a word about free speech.
So? If people refuse to amplify your message that’s not a “freedom of speech” issue.
Sometimes I think these free speech morons will cry censorship over anything less than guaranteed bandwidth straight into our brains.
They want to show up, use a community someone else has built to carry their message, and if they can’t, it’s “freedom of speech!”
Let’s just put that shit away for good. Non-solution? It’s a non-problem, akshully.
I haven’t said a word about free speech. Chill man, lol.
So in your mind, other places must give you a platform. What a nonsense.
Man, did this happen often to you?
Yeah, I’d like to hear exactly what free speech was suppressed. Because the vast majority of these rants have a very interesting post/comment history.
Not exactly free speech violations like OP is stating, since what happened is the same solution as here, i.e. create a new community and use that, so it’s not Reddit issue, but the specific mod of the specific community.
In Reddit there were (possibly still are) two large Bitcoin communities,
/r/bitcoinand/r/btc. One of them is extremely censored, and you will get banned for criticising a specific feature that was introduced in Bitcoin a while back. The other one is a lot more open to discussion and doesn’t ban people for criticising or approving that (or any other) change. You would see at least once a week someone coming to the newer subreddit because he was banned from the other one, for example I was banned for linking a GitHub page that was in the sidebar as a resource (because in the context of the discussion that page proved a mod wrong).I’m not saying this is common place, but it happens, and because the vast majority of people know about Bitcoin but don’t know it’s usually abbreviated btc they’re likely to find the first community. Again I’m not claiming this is a violation of free speech, not even arguing this is a bad thing (since I agree the solution is to create your own community with blackjack and hookers) I’m just pointing that mods banning people just because happens, so there is a grain of truth there.
Reddit will close subreddits that do not delete Hamas footage, for example. So mods have to choose which way to go.
Hamas are right up there with the Nazis as people we don’t need to include in our discussion about how to run a civil society. I say this as a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian cause. Fuck Hamas. Is anyone complaining that tech companies prevent ISIS from using their platforms? Hamas are no better.
I do not understand. I gave an example of absurd censorship. They censor big, negative names because it costs them money. It has nothing to do with Hamas itself. They did not censor them before the attack. The do not censor many other terrorist groups right now, because they are not in the media. They allow(ed?) ISIS content.
Understanding how terrorists operate, based on their go pro footage, seems pretty useful to me. It is also an excellent way to get a realistic view about what happened. They even remove videos where the terrorists were hunted down if it was from their perspective.
It seems you do not understand. Tech companies do everything they can to ensure that terrorists and hostile regimes do not use their service. When ISIS communicate on Facebook, that puts Facebook in jeopardy with the government. Negligence on this is the best thing Facebook can do to invite Congress in to regulate them. I’m not saying that every company does a perfect job or even a good job but to say that removing Hamas content is new or special in any way… yeah you just haven’t seen the inside of a major company’s trust and safety team. If Hamas is prioritized more than last year, maybe it’s because they’ve removed any ambiguity about whether they are the elected authorities in Gaza or terrorists. They’re also probably waging more intense information campaigns than ever since their attack was designed to stir their supporters and put them in conflict with Israel. Yeah, fuck Hamas. If you want to cry censorship, find someone worth defending.
You really need to stop making straw mans. Read what I said, not what you think I said. I gave a specific example of what was discussed. No more and no less.
You said that disallowing Hamas produced video is an example of suppression of free speech and constitutes “absurd censorship.”
My reddit account was recently perm banned for messaging a mod who banned me from a sub for mockingly repeating their policy back to them on attribution and OC. Granted, I was perma banned for “harrassment”. I am skeptical of the people you are talking about as well as many of them are kinda awful community members but I think its a mistake to dismiss all these guys as people who just want to say racial slurs or something.
It sounds like you were trolling, spamming and harassing?
I wasn’t trolling at all. I’m not sure how that could be your take away with the information I gave. I guess you’re in favor of moderation that limits discussion and opposing viewpoints. Most authoritarian are though so I can’t be suprised.
Arguing with a mod isn’t trolling. Disagreeing with a mods decisions isn’t spam or harassment. I guess you’ve found a great way to control speech you don’t like though. Anytime someone says something you dislike call it trolling, spam and harrassment and oila, you can effectively control every message board in existence.
On lemmy, you dont have 1 instance with that community, if a mod or admin is not good, just swap the instance and make there a better community.
That is the same argument as: if you are mistreated at feddex why not join UPS. Is that really a solution when all instances are organized under the same structure?
It’s not the same at all for one important reason. That’s friction to change.
There’s a lot of friction to change from one employer to another. There is practically no friction to change from one Lemmy community to another. Even if they all suck, nothing’s stopping you from making another community. If your new one is so much better, everyone will flock to it, because it’s so easy for them to do so.It’s the same concept as the Free Market. The friction to change is why the free market frequently doesn’t work well in the physical world. But in here, where all the friction becomes practically zero, it actually can work the way it’s supposed to.
Assuming you argue in good faith:
If switching lands you in the exact same predicament then switching is no solution. the reason why i brought up feddex and ups is because none of the problems you face at feddex will be resolved by switiching to ups. just as switching from working at burger king to working at mcdonalds wont change your position.
If you smell shit, check the floor. If you constantly smell shit, check your shoe.
Different instances can handle moderation in different ways. If an instance becomes problematic, it can also be quarantined from other instances. These 2 combine to both allow free speech and prevent poisoning of communities simultaneously.
There is nothing to stop you creating a moderation free community. You can even be part of a whole sub-federation of instances with that mindset. The only thing others can take from you is the ability to reach into their communities. It just turns out that most people don’t want to be involved in that sort of community.
It only won’t matter if the mods in the community your switching from aren’t actually bad. If it’s only you who doesn’t like them, then it’s you who’s the problem, and your leaving fixed it for that community.
But if it’s true that the mod in that community is a real problem, most of the people in that community will move with you, and the problematic mod will be left with an empty community and nothing to moderate.
Or perhaps the people are split. Then you’ll have two communities on the same topic, with different moderation policies.
In any of the above cases, that’s the system working correctly.
I refuse to engage with this topic in terms of “freedom of speech” and “censorship.” There are no civil rights at issue when moderators of a forum delete comments. If you want to talk about petty, tyrannical behavior by the mods that’s a question of what kind of community we want to have. NOT “freedom of speech.” There absolutely have to be norms of conduct here or the place will descend into shit. So unrestrained expression is off the table in all scenarios.
Stop talking about it as freedom of speech and then we can get somewhere.
“If this gets me banned than you are worse than spez” hahahahahahahaha, wot m8?
I get the feeling that you are not taking me seriously or that you might even be mocking or worse ridiculing me /s
You can host your own instance to share your opinions.
Still don’t expect other instances for allowing content they don’t want to be federated with, so you might have where to say something but it might not reach everyone.Please give actual examples of what was silenced.
Also what is your definition of freedom of speech?
Do you understand that freedom of speech is a legal, very explicitly defined thing?
Lemmy.world, by its own continuous admission, is not a free speech platform
Community moderation simply isn’t the issue most people leaving Reddit were looking to solve during Rexit
I think I found this out a bit late. I was looking for something that allows for free speech while preventing anti-social content/behaviour.
I was looking for something that allows for free speech while preventing anti-social content/behaviour.
Then create your own instance, you can post what ever you want then,
But of course, no one has to federate with you if they do not want to listen.
Personally, I feel it’s the proper job of a mod to decide what kind of a community they want to foster, establish their rules to reflect those goals, and enforce accordingly. Not every online space has to be a wild frontier allowing the worst of online behavior. Furthermore, any person who wants such a wild frontier community on reddit or here is certainly free to make that community. If enough people enjoy hanging out with that behavior, then your community will be a success. And THAT is actual freedom of speech: make your community the way you like it, and see how many other people want to hang out with you. I promise, if I visit your community, I won’t complain about being offended or aggravated.
Most of my experience with people complaining about lack of freedom of speech have tried to force their wild frontier self expressions onto spaces where civil speech is enforced or the topics to be discussed are tightly defined.
honestly? nothing whatsoever. I see a lot of censorship on lemmy, particularly in the *.ml instances.
Freedom of expression should not be subject to the whims of individuals!
Are you saying it should be without limitation?
Insults, hate speech, lies, prejudice, riling up conflict and hate? Ad spam and off topic?
I would also be fine if insults, hate speech, lies, predejcue, riling up and hate and spam and off topic are prevented but legitimate speech remains uncensored.
basically all speech that doesnt break the rules.
No not at all there are limits to free speech for example screeming fire in a packed theatre.
I don’t think it should be in the hands of individuals but it should probably be community based idk, maybe through voting or some better system. like a sort of distributed moderation instead of centralized.
How much more distributed do you want it?
What i mean like the jury system were 12 random users for example might be picked and then they get to vote on a case.
So no judge? How do we make sure that the jury follows the rules?
I’m not sure tbh
Modlogs are public here, for one. As communities get bigger and modding gets more labor intensive there’s bound to be some convergence in practices, but there’s also different options available as instances can defederate, new instances can be established, forks can be made of the technologies at play, etc.
Guess we’ll see.
Guess we’ll see.
I guess so
If you got banned a lot of Reddit, the problem might be you.
There were some dubious moderators, but I tended to stick to subs where i share values with the sub and the mods and things were pretty decent. If they hadn’t torpedoed mobile apps I probably would have stuck around.
In contrast, Lemmy seems to be very lightly moderated across the board, probably because moderating is a crap load of work.
If you got banned a lot of Reddit, the problem might be you.
Or the problem might be reddit i.e. a problem reddit has with free speech:
- reddit is like many other social media subject to campaigns of propaganda by companies, groups, state-actors.
- bots are common place and are influencing discourse
Social effects like mob mentality take place, so if you are an individualist and say it how it is you are going to be surpressed just for voicing a legitimate opinion.
You clearly cannot question the prevalence of bots and large scale manipulation by bad faith actors (say for example a company that systematically downvotes or through their mods bans all unfavorable comments about flaws in their new product).
🚩 🚩 🚩 🚩
I think its mistake to simply play these folks off as people who want to say racial slurs or something.
I’m not.
But I am starting to get the feeling that they, let’s put this gently, do not play well with others. And that subsequently they externalize that experience.
Since this is a recipe for recidivism (you don’t learn anything if you always think the others are at fault) and eventually you get banned and it ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy.
I refuse to let Lemmy become the place where people banned from other services go stink up the place.
Agreed on all points. I loved Reddit and had a long lived account with a decent amount of comment karma. I dropped it cold turkey when the API change happened.
Never had any real run ins with mods even though I had arguments with other users pretty regularly. I acted in good faith and tried to be helpful as much as possible.
Most subreddits were fine. If you got banned all over the place, it says more about you than it does Reddit.
Edit: regarding the light moderation on Lemmy, I think some of that is just because there’s less content here spread across a lot more places. Most communities are pretty sparse.
Cry harder, then go start your own instance so you can moderate yourself.
Probably the Lemmy users and the community mods? So, nothing different from Reddit.
As a recent mod of another community here on Lemmy, there seems to be a weird expectation that mods are there to protect posters from each other. “They called me an ignoramus! Ban them! Ban them now!” Like…yeah, abusive language should be banned…but mods shouldn’t be a poster’s way to play bait-and-whack-a-mole.
If Reddit mods had to deal with that shit, then I feel sorry for them.
Conversely, there is an expectation that mods are supposed to be impartial. They’re as human as any other poster, and dealing with antagonists day-in, day-out takes its toll. After a while, it’s just indiscriminate pattern recognition: a certain pattern warrants a ban every time without discussion.
For example, when you said this:
If this gets me banned than you are worse than spez
Did you look at the rules before and ask, “How can this post get me banned?” If so, then you obviously didn’t need to include this line. If you didn’t, then you shouldn’t have posted in the first place.
If users want a particular type of community, then users should act in a way to facilitate it. Mods alone can’t do that. Mods, at most, can define and enforce the limits of what’s acceptable. But if posters routinely act in unacceptable ways, then they shouldn’t get mad when mods routinely enforce those limits.
I myself have not made a single report.
I consider the job of mods to prevent another 4chan. Without moderation pedo content and other awful content will flood the site. I do not bother mods because of name-calling. Sticks and stones may break your bones but words can never hurt me.
