- cross-posted to:
- monero@monero.town
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Three easy payments of $999.99!
The limit is not by single payment but by purchase/receipt.
Isn’t a simple solution to split the purchase then? I will buy the tires for 8000€ and the rest of the car for 9000€.
I know this is nitpicking and they’re not doing this for cases like the above. People targeted by this will have other simple solutions to work around it.
This doesn’t seem that much worse than American rules that have already been in place for a long, long time.
As it is, large payments or withdrawals must be reported to federal agencies, anything over $10k. This applies to cash transactions as well and the forms the IRS requires you to fill in a $10k+ cash transaction can be found here.
The biggest difference would be the impact on cash transactions and crypto transactions in the EU.
I’m pro-privacy, but a lot more crypto facilitates crime than not, so I don’t really know why people would be shocked that governments would attack crypto specifically here (literally almost all ransomware uses crypto). Looks like way more of a crackdown on crypto than cash, but maybe that’s just me.
Here in Germany Cash payments for houses are a great way of laundering money for the mafia. Similar roles have als been proposed a while ago
Italian here. Our right wing government who blinks an eye to all small entrepreneur in Italy (there are A TON here) recently increased the max cash payment from 2k to 5k. This is definitely a way to say “please be free to recycle a bit more oney” and to gain votes in exchange.
It’s incredible how Germany, Austria, or Switzerland to name a few have this crazy high cash payment.
In fact our “ndrangheta” for example (Mafia from Calabria) expanded a lot in Germany due to this.
Italian here too. It’s sad how the EU has to make us do the smart things as we are incapable of them
Still not a good enough reason to reduce the privacy and freedom of any citizen. I don’t care if the mob uses cash, let the police track the serial numbers of their cash if they catch them doing crimes or whatever. The mob isn’t my problem, but losing freedom is bad for every citizen.
The mob isn’t your problem unless you live in a society shaped heavily by them. In that case, this act has more pros than cons
And the USA system is bullshit and I’m against it.
Just because one country has it doesn’t mean another should adopt it
This doesn’t seem that much worse than American rules that have already been in place for a long, long time.
Do you really want to be like the US, though? I think maybe that’s not a great idea. (Source: am from US)
So, Europe limiting people’s freedom, even more. Why am I not surprised? Use Monero and build the circular economy. Give the middle finger to these clowns. People in the US need to do the same thing because we are headed down the same path. That’s why I always suggest if you have Monero not turning it back into Fiat ever.
Use Monero, burn the planet, don’t buy anything useful with it as it can be made illegal after one legislation and don’t forget to actively swap it between 10 other different cryptocurrencies. Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.
burn the planet
How much energy does it take to run the banking sector?
don’t buy anything useful with it as it can be made illegal after one legislation
Yeah, good luck with that. It’s censorship resistant. So that legislation doesn’t fucking matter.
actively swap it between 10 other different cryptocurrencies
Funny as most stuff can be purchased in Monero without swapping.
Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.
which could be easily changed at any time.
Please do remember that the banking industry provides banking for the entire world, instead of ~ten thousand people. It does cost a lot of energy, yes, but the energy per person is far less than with any cryptocurrency.
The point of crypto is for everybody on earth to be their own bank and be part of the financial system, which is something the banks cannot do.Also, the bank’s banking system and governments have gotten us into the situation we are in now where the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. I don’t know who said it, but I heard a quote once that said something to the effect of, let me control what a man uses as money, and I care not who makes his laws.
The poor get poorer and the rich get richer because of the economical system we live under, not because of the banking industry. Crypto isn’t going to solve that.
I agree that banks are not to be trusted, but a blockchain hasn’t proven to be a safe option either.
You also just skipped over my comment. I take that means that you acknowledge that crypto is extremely wasteful and would never scale unless gigantic changes were made to how it functions?
Not at all. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer due to inflation, which is caused by government spending and central banks creating money out of nothing and saying that it has value when it does not. Not all crypto is extremely power-hungry. Take Monero, for example, as it is mined with CPUs only, which everybody has access to. If cryptocurrency mining ends up using less power than the banking system, then that is a net positive instead of a net negative. The majority of cryptocurrency losses have not been because of the blockchain, but because of services built on top of it that should not have existed to begin with, such as exchanges, lending companies, etc. When you give your crypto to somebody else, it is no longer your crypto, and that’s where people have messed up by giving their crypto to places like FTX, Mt Gox, etc. There’s also quite a lot of mistakes made with two-factor authentication via SMS which is not secure to maintain a cryptocurrency account such as Coinbase. When somebody tries to explain that you should not hold your keys on exchanges, a lot of times you get feedback about, oh, that’s too much work. Well, if you’re not going to care about your money, nobody else will. One of the big major points of crypto is to eliminate the trusted third party.
And yet most cryptocurrencies are mostly used as a investments instead of using them for their intended purpose which is transactions .
Which I agree is a problem. I don’t see them as an investment. I see them as a way to get out from under the authoritarian rule of governments. Unfortunately, we have what we call the number go up crowd and we don’t like them very well.
Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.
which could be easily changed at any time.
Not just that. Git would let the devs know if the repository contents were maliciously changed.
Monero is a terrible investment long term. Pricing is hard because the value is always changing
What do you mean? I’ve been using Monero for over a year and in that time one Monero has always equaled one Monero. /s
It’s only when you price it in fiat currency that the price changes.
How about against the price of gold? You also will see it change
True, i have never measured it against gold. Though my guess is that price action would be pretty muted since both are decently stable.
Monero is not stable
Monero is actually the least volatile crypto asset that is not specifically designed to be pegged to fiat.
I did not say stable. I said decently stable. Since Monero is actually used as money and changes hands often, the price fluctuations do exist, but they are less than they might otherwise be. Monero took a big shock recently during the Binance de-listing and dropped 30% which lasted for all of about a week before it was back to a decent equilibrium and only a month to recover most of that loss. It has recovered 20% of the original drop, even though there are fewer people using it. Because it removed some speculation from the market. More people over time are realizing that Bitcoin is not the promise they understood it to be and are leaving for Monero.
How does Monero avoid the problem of Bitcoin? Of just being used for investment and not currency?
You obviously didn’t read it. This is specifically targeting businesses, not individuals, so you’ll still be able to use Monero and whatnot to buy stuff from companies, they just need to have their crypto wallets at a custodian (presumably for tax transparency). Likewise with cash transactions, large transactions are rare and unnecessary between businesses.
If that is actually the case, the crypto portion is at least not that bad. The 10k limit on cash transactions is just not feasible in some industries though.
Yeach im most worried about used car market. Thats the only place that i know of where large amounts of cash is exchanged most often.
I’m pretty sure this is business to business, not customer to business. So you could still buy that €11k car, the bank would just need to deposit it instead of handing that €11k to the wholesaler in cash (they’d need to use a bank transfer for that).
I could be wrong though, it just depends on what “business transactions” means. Is it only B2B, or B2C counts too?
that nostr link doesn’t load for me but this is the url that the post in the screenshot is ultimately linking to: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/eu-cash-cap-and-ban-on-anonymous-crypto-payments-results-in-financial-paternalism/
This feels like satire
Wtfff
Clickbait headline. The underlying article lists much more reasonable restrictions:
- Anonymous cash payments over €3,000 will be banned in commercial transactions
- Cash payments over €10,000 will even be completely banned in business transactions
- Anonymous payments in cryptocurrencies to wallets operated by providers will be prohibited
So non-commercial transations are fine, as are crypto transactions to non-custodial wallets.
That’s all pretty damn reasonable…
Unless you want to buy something with cash. Once they cross the line they won’t stop until cash and anonymity are gone
Yeah, that’s my concern as well. However, most large cash purchases are things that are tracked anyway, like vehicles, houses, etc.
slippery slope, dumbass
What’s the difference between commercial and business? I thought they were synonymous.
I think they are used synonymously in this article, but business could also mean B2B transactions, so between two businesses.
Commercial transactions - Aaah, the kind of transaction that most transactions are?
Operated by providers - Aah, so any business which accept crypto must KYC every one of their customers. This makes accepting crypto especially burdensome, which is half the point of this legislation in the first place.
Why does the government need to have every transaction reported to them? Crime is bad because it causes harm. If harm is being caused, that means a person or entity is causing that harm. That means there is evidence. Follow that. Police have more surveillance and crime-detecting tools than at any point in human history. We all travel with GPS monitors in our pockets. We all use credit cards instead of cash. We all are recorded by CCTV 90% of the places we go. We don’t need to give them more financial surveillance because ‘crime’.
so any business which accept crypto must KYC every one of their customers
No, any business must use a KYC custodian for their wallets. I don’t think they’ll need to KYC their customers, they’ll just need to account for those transactions in their accounting.
So if the company accepts Monero, the Monero wallet would need to be with a custodian, but you’d be free to use Monero to buy stuff and remain anonymous. At least that’s my read.
I’m not saying these rules are perfect, but it doesn’t help if you argue against rules that don’t exist.
Commercial transactions are not “all” tx, and above 3000€ are obviously not the most common tx.
I do think the crypto restriction with no lower limit is too much, and I don’t get why they focus on non-custodial wallets, but it’s again not “all” tx.
Why does the government …
Money laundering, tax evasion and corruption are real crimes with real consequences, and knowing about the flow of money is pretty much required to be able to detect them. It’s a trade-off with privacy, so imo setting some limit for anonymous payments is the right thing to do. Idk if 3000€ is perfect, but it does seem reasonable.
Police have more surveillance and crime-detecting tools …
We need some amount of oversight and surveillance, so imo it’s not good enough to just exaggerate every proposal to the extreme and reject it on those grounds. These rules are not a total crackdown on anonymous payments, but they might still be too restrictive. But you kill every discussion about that if you just make up different rules entirely, instead of arguing about the rules that were actually adopted.
And these limits will be tied to inflation?
more reasonable restrictions:
None of that is reasonable.
Anybody who defends these actions by the EU is a poopy face
It’s OK to be an outlaw.
Grab #Monero
Monero is like an unregulated stock. If you want to use it for a purchase, you want to wait until as late as possible to actually purchase any.
A better strategy for staying private would just be hoarding money under your bed.
So that you can’t sell later ?
Yeah, lose all your money so you don’t have to worry about it being surveilled!
More than 97% of monero buyers are in profit right now. Nobody on earth lost more than 10% buying monero
Do you see the irony of people treating a cryptocurrency in name as a cryptostock in reality?
I think people should create new and stronger communities to fight stuff like that
Topics, groups, etc, where people discuss and organize system fighting
creepy
I have spent €3000+ in cash a few times in the last few years but I dont really mind this tbh.
Don’t give up on your rights just because it’s easier to be lazy and not defend them. Stand for all them, whatever they might be
I’m all for privacy and I’d use Monero all the time, but this kind of regulations heavily damaged the mafia so tbh let’s go for it. I’m not gonna spend 3k per transaction regardless
Lol, what a shill. I guess that’s because the mafia follows rules?
If banks and shops don’t accept and give paper money to randoms, bad people have a more difficult life.
It is not only bombs and guns, it’s an intricated system of black market, black job that Redditors from other countries have no idea about 👍
I’m sorry sir, it looks like you are exhibiting individual thought, we need to open you up and change your brain for a government approved Brain-a-tron.
Enjoy your distopia and thank you for enlightening me of how money laundering, black market and kyc works. Keep parroting “security” and “for the kids” though ;)
They track the trade of art too?
How do you think they’re paying for art?
Money > Art > Suspicious business.
Suspicious business > more Art > more money.
more money.
…soooo someone paid money? Which would fall under the regulation.
NFTs invented nothing, they copied the shady scam/money-laundering business of IRL art
