seen this post elsewhere? click for explanation
This post got banned from !memes@lemmy.world for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕
I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating.
EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.)
Important clarification/FAQ: I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
click this dropdown for comments that are very helpful and illustrate key points!
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
It’s not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis.
For Fucks Sake
Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
absolutely agree ❤️
which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
But this meme means you don’t agree
… no. thats what nuance is. i agree both with the text of my meme and with this commenter. holding two truths at once that, from a broad and shortsighted perspective, might seem contradictory but are not. the two are not mutually exclusive just because the differences are subtle.
nuance: the whole point of this post. internalize that please 😭
You’re asking victims and advocates to soften their tones. The ask is contradictory.
You obviously don’t understand the meme and, at least from where I stand, are part of the problem.
Thank you, it’s hard to fight for nuance in such a polarised world, but I appreciate your tenacity.
We can all be winners if we just talk
Stopping the progressive downfall of society is on all of society, period. What’s the end game of alienating half the race?
You’re right about one thing. Women can’t make men not rape, and it doesn’t really fall to them. Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don’t rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas? And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
Changing society is a game everyone has to be on board with. Everyone makes up society, so you can’t just tell half of them they’re not fit and expect it just to work out. Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I’m tired of having to be “one of the good ones”. We already decided labeling someone one of the good ones wasn’t right with black people, we really need to have that fight again?
Yes, precisely. If the majority of men don’t change the culture by standing up for women and against low-key misogyny that’s everywhere then nothing will change and they aren’t really “good guys”.
Dunno. But there’s certainly a LOT of misogynists on Lemmy and I’m going to keep pushing back against them. They probably think they’re feminists, too. Quoting bear statistics, saying “not all men”, equivocating gender and race relations, telling women to “tone down” their complains so they don’t alienate rapists and potential rapists.
Lol, don’t fret. With an attitude like that, you aren’t.
We aren’t talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don’t understand what’s going on. No surprise.
Not gonna bother with the nuance-missing ad hom attacks. Just this one.
If you can’t see that it is 100% an equivalent situation, you have no idea why people are actually upset and just want to join the noise.
Also, don’t call me honey. It’s really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
Whoosh
Oh no, I got your intent. Believe me.
And your statement is so pointlessly gendered it qualifies as transphobic.
Do tell how I am being transphobic. I did not speak of sex nor cis/trans distinctions. And binary trans people (cannot speak to nonbinary) have experience as both genders.
Also how is this pointless? The entire discussion revolves around the Patriarchy: a social system that gives dominance to men. Gender is at the heart of it. Trying to apply this discussion to other fields falls short because it is discussing the nuances of gender politics and the Patriarchy in particular. Which is why trying to overlay this discussion onto race or nationality doesn’t make sense (referring to other common arguments, not this thread in particular).
This thread is sad. I regret making an account outside of where I was prior. I didn’t realize the horrific communities we had defederated from/who defederated from us. Clearly I need to just browse the blahaj instance and not beyond it. There are some nasty, nasty people on other instances.
I’m glad to see you here talking sense.
Thanks. I’m not sure what it is but any talk of men-women gender privilege gets a LOT of flak from pro-men posters on Lemmy. Unsure if it’s instance-based or just general userbase outside LGBT+ instances. I’ve blocked a few bad ones but I see the flak from across a wide array of instances.
I try to push back hard against disingenuous arguments to try to clue people in. I’ve tried what this thread suggests, and still do try to use logic and honest discussion but when I see the same dumb argument 5 times in a thread, I lose patience.
Calling transphobia in such a disingenuous way is pretty gross. There is nothing wrong with your comment, as trans man I stand fully behind it. Bigots try to divide feminists and trans people often in similar ways but we won’t let them ❤️
For fucks sake maybe part of the problem is men are ALWAYS told to shut up and that their problems dont matter as much as literally any other population. I initially responded to the meme with annoyance, but understanding, but the constant creep of aggression that it keeps coming back with has started to trigger my own baggage.
Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time. It’s time for men like you to realise that sometimes yeah you should shut up and yeah your opinion is less important than the lived experience of women when it comes down to sexism and SA. Educate yourself please before you embarrass yourself even more.
Invisible women is a great book to start. Very easy to read and full of interesting statistics.
It’s not a competition. Let’s all be better
Dude when I read that book and learned female/pregnant crash test dummies didn’t exist until like 5 years ago I was speechless. Decades of research and stats showing women were being disproportionately hurt/killed in car crashes despite over half a century of consistent safety improvements and testing. No one thought to include them. Just baffling.
Why are you talking to a 15 year old like that?
Yikes.
They’re right
Oh so it’s fine when it happens the other way, gotta perpetuate the anger somehow!
Maybe everyone should be allowed a voice and nobody should be told to shut up?
I think right about now would be a good time to check your privilege. People overall are told that all the time, yet somehow women still by and large have shoulders to cry on, places to complain where they’re heard. Wait, no, crying on shoulders, complaining, again, that would be pathetic for men never mind.
Toxic masculinity exists. Women are also told to “remember their place” and act a certain way. Both are true.
Work too much? Doesn’t take care of her family. Full time mom? Doesn’t have a real job. Asserts herself at work? Bossy and bitchy. Asks for assistance with her family? Bad mom. Black and asks for assistance with her family? Welfare Queen.
Have you ever asked yourself why people only bring up male victims when we are talking about female victims? It’s like people who talk about homeless veterans whenever people advocate for the homeless writ large. The moment the discussion about the homeless fades away, those veteran homeless have served their purpose. As a cudgel to stop others from receiving help. We see this over and over again across all sorts of issues and demographics.
I mean yes I could have used the term “toxic masculinity” but men not steeped deeply in feminist theory tend to react badly to it, and self-identified feminists (usually also not quite firm in theory) getting called out for engaging in it tend to react even worse. And I already used quite a lot of budget on the privilege check, so, yeah, better avoid that one.
In 2024 the bar is still too low. Many men deny we need feminism at all, despite the fact that it benefits everyone. Gender roles and expectations are generally bad for everyone. Advocating for women generally is advocacy for men as well.
(btw did you see my edit to your edit)
In theory, yes. In practice you get self-avowed feminists reinforcing the patriarchy, hence why I did the privilege checking.
Not in theory, in reality. You are describing a bogeyman feminist, the crap like we see with Hannity and Carlson.
Facts don’t care about your feelings bro
Once again I recommend reading the book invisible women for more interesting statistics, and an analysis on gender specific data. It turns out that gender specific data is very hard to come by, making a lot of potential other gender gaps undiscovered. Women are much more likely than men to be victims of gender specific data gaps because women were not allowed to work for a long time and women still make up only a small fraction of executives making many women specific problems to stay undiscovered.
I now could start a big list starting with men being four times more likely to commit suicide than women. But I won’t, because I assume you’re aware of all those gendered inequalities affecting men just as I was aware of every single one of the bullet points you mentioned.
we aren’t talking about suicide. If we talk about suicide then feel free to bring it up as then it’s actually relevant.
We weren’t talking about workplace discrimination, either. Or car seats. Or medicine. Or work hours. Those are real issues brought up in addition which I readily acknowledged and made no attempt at dismissing, nor did I spent more breath on a single male issue than any single one of the female issues got.
We were talking about people’s experiences and pain getting silenced, and how none of it should get ignored. I suggest making that “if” into a “when” and lead by example.
This entire post is a reaction to a post about how unsafe women feel. Suicide among men is a very serious issue that should not be used as a cudgel to shout down or otherwise diminish the seriousness of other causes. Talking about the challenges women face doesn’t diminish the seriousness of men committing suicide at higher rates. Stop it.
By your logic, I should say “stop talking about men committing suicide when trans people commit suicide at a higher rate.“ Does that seem right to you? I sure hope not.
Men are always told to shut up? They run the whole damn world lmfao we are going into November with 2 geriatric men as the candidates ffs
Biggest comics on stage? Men (many with a giant stage complaining they have no platform mind you)
News and pundits? Men.
CEO’s/c-suite execs? Men.
Hey look a list of billionaires. Sure looks like a lot of men.
Men don’t run the world, oligarchs run the world
The homeless men you walk past on your way to work do not run the world
You’re forgetting the “male” part of oligarchs.
Saying a certain group has disproportionate representation does not mean literally everybody in that demographic is benefiting. I am a man, I am not a billionaire, the evidence is clear on that one. But we also both know that is not what I was saying, so that is as far as I’m willing to take this comment.
Is it forgetting or, looking at the percentages, considering it irrelevant to the overall problems the system has?
How large a percentage of men are oligarchs, and how large a percentage of oligarchs are women? Which one is, in <randomliberalcounttry>, the larger number? Would oligarchy be any better if all oligarchs were women? Now as an anarchist I might be biassed here but given that oligarchy is a system of rule I’d say it’s the actual problem, not the gender distribution that’s a mere nuance. I don’t care whether we’re all ruled by left-handed people, or ones with heterochromatic eyes, their geno- or phenotype doesn’t matter what matters is that they are in power. For more education, consult your friendly neighbourhood anarcho-feminist.
You’re just seeing what sticks at this point.
Oh not just “at this point” I’ve been busy figuring out what sticks with people vs. what doesn’t for at least two decades now. Points that, when prodded, don’t cause resistance, where some leverage can be applied that then may or may not avalanche into reevaluation of other topics which would be foolhardy to address directly. Dancing around the neuroses of the collective to enact my grand political vision of *checks notes* universal psychological health.
That all said yes of course we also have issues with gender roles. It’s just that in terms of who sits at the big power levers that’s not terribly relevant any more, it’s not 1850 any more the dam has long since been breached and as women can inherit fortunes nowadays the gender distribution of oligarchs is bound to level out soon enough.
That’s called trying on opinions like hats. I don’t engage with people who pull that crap. It’s just another flavor of “devil’s advocate” where there is no burden to be consistent or stand by anything. Any pushback you face is met with abandoning the idea as if it was never stated. No thanks.
None of that has anything to do with the conversation. You’re only justifying the fact that you’re agreeing that men don’t get to have problems and should just shut up
When did I say anything remotely akin to “men don’t have problems and should just shut up”? Show me. When did anyone I supported say it? Show me.
It’s not personal. You aren’t just a man, right?
Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
I am listening to and validating your stories. I don’t appreciate the other commenters jumping down your throat in this context.
There are a lot of emotions running high on all sides. What is needed is a deep breath and open mindedness but that is hard under a post that is already a reaction to a reaction.
If you haven’t already, check out !mensliberation@lemmy.ca, seen some positive stuff over there and I think you could find mutual value :)
SMH
It was a divisive comment that was certainly fueled by already-high emotions, the mods may have just done what was necessary to keep toxicity and flaming at bay.
I ask you to please not add fuel to the fire—nobody gains anything from the doubling down on hurt feelings. Listen to each other instead of trying to one-up.
I know, the only winning move is not to play. And the mods had limited options
Shoutout to the mods for putting up with the garbage behavior my post shuffled up. 🙏
And thank you friend for doing your part not to get me banned again :)
I literally just want to say thank you. I’ve been trying to get across something similar, and I’m sure we’d disagree on a few issues. But your compassion and understanding of all points of view is genuinely inspiring
💖