TLDR: Windows is now the bloatware.
Windows is getting shittier and shittier each version. Using a MacOS, even with all its flaws it’s such a clean experience compared to it.
But then I’d have to support Macintosh’s overpriced garbage.
Overpriced? Yes, garbage? No. The MacBooks are far beyond the close competition in both quality and performance. Apple Silicon is a game changer for the industry and it’s making Intel and AMD look very bad.
The close competition? For the price of a MacBook you could get a beefy ass PC.
That’s not apples to apples. If you spec a windows laptop, good luck getting the same performance and the same battery life and portability at the same price. Also build quality, screen, speaker and trackpad quality will likely not be at apples level from the windows machine. If that’s what you’re in the market for Apple machines are not bad. For instance a photographer/videographer working on location, truly amazing for them. Should everyone buy one? No. Are there a 100 better ways to spend the money if you don’t have that specific Apple favoured use case. Sure, e.g. your mum doesn’t need a MacBook Pro for Facebook / Amazon browsing and your cousin shouldn’t buy a Mac Studio for gaming. But use cases do exist, and for those people Macs are genuinely a good proposition.
A beefy ass desktop that weights about 15kg and eats as much energy as a microwave when gaming. For performance per watt nothing beats the Apple Silicon.
What you using all that power for? Gaming? Not likely on Mac, Machine learning? Also not likely with that GPU… Maybe a Photoshop machine? Enjoy that non expandable ram.
For a nice dev machine I get it, nice battery life and watch Netflix on a screen, but it’s not like you can’t get a same performance machine for the same/lesser price with Dell/Thinkpad and use Linux…
That’s a rather narrow set of use cases. For example, they are audio and video editing powerhouses. Audio in particular is exceptional because of core audio in MacOS.
And upgradable components aren’t something 95% of the population is worried about. Max out what you need when you buy it. My last Mac lasted 8 years with no trouble. And by the time I was ready to upgrade, the bottleneck was mainly the cpu, which in a case of 8 years, that means a new motherboard, and at that point you might as well upgrade the whole computer, as standards have changed and updated.
Apple silicon has a pretty decent on-board ML subsystem, you can get LLMs to output a respectable number of tokens per second off of it if you have the memory for them. I’m honesty shocked that they haven’t built a little LLM to power Siri
a same performance machine for the same/lesser price with Dell/Thinkpad and use Linux
With that software support…?
Or a beefy laptop that can do more than send emails and Photoshop lol
Right. Buy products that is not only expensive to buy, but also expensive to repair. Pass…
And you are forced to give up system control, and choice of software
You will even have to give up compatible software because Apple deemed it “too old”
Before I will even think about buying a Mac I will buy a Framework laptop and install debian.
And I don’t even use Linux outside of a home server.Yeah those laptops from Framework seems very interesting. They don’t ship here yet, but I’m indeed keeping an eye on them. I know Framework project thanks to LTT, which is one of the few things right they’ve been doing these latest months: introducing people to easy to repair projects.
deleted by creator
I’m literally stating the negatives, now only because I said there’s good stuff about them I’m an advertising bot?
deleted by creator
I’m so sorry for English not being my native language 🧐
far beyond the close competition in both quality and performance
It’s true that Apple continues to be the king of build quality. And while they do currently hold the performance per watt crown, there are plenty of laptops that beat the M2 when it comes to raw performance, especially if you throw in a dGPU. And of course, none of this matters if the device doesn’t run the software you want, which is what I suspect most people on Lemmy have issue with.
When I say performance I include the package as a whole. Battery-wise is top in the competition lasting more hours than the average Windows competitor, also the productivity software most times work a lot better on Mac than on Windows, so even if the Windows laptop has more raw power, while even consuming a lot more energy, Windows itself will for sure cripple the computer’s performance.
If I was working on ASUS or any other OEM, I’d be pushing for usage of Linux distros like hell (I’d be pushing those based on Debian, like Ubuntu, Pop_OS, etc…).
Windows : making Linux better by comparison!
Maybe thanks to Windows being so shit, Linux will have its year soon
Yeah, I remember XP and Seven as solid OSes where everything just worked.
Now it’s a mix of crap, hey this app is in night mode, this one isn’t! Want to change a parameter? Ha ha you can’t! You want to share a folder? Good luck!
And it’s heuristics/analysis just because Windows is inherently insecure drags any pc down to a crawl…
And publicity??!
Aurgh
Edit: can I run my old CS3 Photoshop in wine or something? And 3dstudio without crazy lags? If so I’ll stop using windows completely.
Windows 7 was peak Windows. They smoothed out all the problems of Vista (plus hardware caught up to the recommended specs) and all the new tech that Vista introduced matured a bit. Was one of the nicest looking operating systems they ever released too - though that is highly subjective.
Everything after has introduced some form of garbage in it’s iteration. Windows 8 had a garbage tablet interface that sucked when used with keyboard/mouse. Like the majority of devices that it was installed on. Windows 10 rolled back some of those shit changes but was the version Microsoft started implementing their adware. Windows 11 took it to 11 and put in a bunch of hardware requirements that conveniently required you to dump some money into Intel hardware.
Been running Linux for last six months and it is crazy how much better it runs. It isn’t as cumbersome to use as the old days… But every once in a while I run into something that requires Googling and tweaking in Terminal. It’s been my best experience with the OS though going back to WAY back (Mandrake and Slackware days - or are they still around? Early 2000’s maybe???)
Why cs3 when krita would have more features and be free? Familiarity?
Because I’m used to it I guess, and I haven’t found a single app that handles pixels and transparency well.
Like zoom in like crazy, update 1 pixel, save, transparency is still there.
Haven’t looked for a bunch of years though, maybe it’s time to try again :-)
Krita’s always done transparency just fine for me. It’s pretty good these days. There’s also a built in option to set your keyboard shortcuts to the same ones that Photoshop uses.
Well then I’ll have to re-check it out :-)
Cheers
Yeah, I try never to underestimate the value of sheer familiarity. New software is like breaking in a new pair of leather shoes, sometimes you have to bleed a little before your feet adapt and you adjust it to fit.
I guess it’s like smoking.
You know it’s bad for you, and it costs a lot, but it’s a hassle to drop, so you just keep smoking anyway.
Or a whole lot if you go the Blender route…
And the CPUs riddled with security flaws that suddenly get discovered, fixed and you lose 20% of performance overnight.
That obviously sucks but it isn’t limited to windows, right?
Yes, that’s mostly related to the CPU maker.
Since 1998
ive slapped mint on so many PCs… people barely know its not windows
most people only use the freakin browser
Its kinda why chrome os works. Majority of people only need the browser, and if you need basic office suite, google has their own cloud options.
Its when you have specific use cases when you HAVE to use a certain os over another (e.g gaming with anti cheat, AI/ML and engineering software is usually windows foward, adobe stability on OSX. A lot of backend and server applications on linux)
I have a friend who runs MacOS too. She bought it used and it’s a desktop so it isn’t impossible to repair.
They are not “impossible” to repair they are very expensive to repair. For example, if you break a screen on a MacBook usually Apple solution is to replace the entire fucking lid. So because of a broken screen you throw the metal, camera, microfones and all other bullshit that comes in a MacBook lid just to fix a fucking screen.
The MBA dickheads took Microsoft over years ago. Engineers used to have some input on features and design, but those days are long gone. I know the term enshittification has been overused, but it applies double to Microsoft.
Tools like ShutUp10 (which works on Windows 11) are the only reason I can bear to use their bloated horrible OS for my job.
Office 365 pissed me off so much I only use LibreOffice now (and it’s excellent).
We should all be using Linux, but some folks (like me) are trapped for now.
Fuck Libre Office and Open Office.
I really hate the, “we should all use Linux” mentality and I see it on here a lot. Let me tell someone who barely knows how to send a fucking file over the internet how to fix their broken repository that decided to randomly break during an Linux upgrade.
Linux and Windows do different things in different ways that make sense in both ways for different reasons. Not everyone should hate Windows or vice versa, Linux, because this entire Lemmy community thinks it is superior in every way.
I get pissed off by office as well but you know what it has some pretty damn good features. It works in the cloud it’s easy to sync across my decides.
Windows updates break things but at least MS and Windows has a massive catalogue of fixes and ways to go back.
I love Linux but holy mother of fucking God it is an absolute pain in the ass to fix when it breaks and you expect me to tell my Mom to understand that.
No, we should not all be using Linux because Linux does not work for all models needing to be met. I hate to be that aggressive asshole but Jesus Christ I keep seeing this on Lemmy and it’s just a god damn stupid fucking statement. Oh and for fucks sake. If I see, “what kind of Linux system are you using that breaks.” Dammit, I have literally seen Linux break in the middle of a college classroom demonstration of just installing it and wouldn’t you know it just like Windows it isn’t perfect. Get off your high horse people. You don’t know something more than the average person because you use Linux or Windows or hell even Unix.
People who “barely knows how to send a fucking file over the internet” can’t fix shit on Windows either. I spent a lot more time fixing my mom’s Windows install than her Ubuntu.
I spent a lot more time fixing my mom’s Windows install than her Ubuntu.
Small anecdote, roughly in the same line as yours:
As W7 was close to end of life, I asked my mum about it, as her laptop used W7. And after highlighting the privacy nightmare that W10 became, she decided to try Linux out. So I installed Mint in her machine. At the start she asked for help often, but the amount of “pls help” decreased over time. The last time that she asked for help was because she wanted to access “her computer” from her phone, just like I do with mine. (i.e. local network.)
My neighbours though? I often get some spare change from them, by helping them out with their Windows machines. And they’re in the same level of tech expertise as my mum, you know, those folks who can download and install a program and not much else.
Linux Mint really impressed me when I decided to try it in a VM earlier this year (was already using fedora in VMs for build environments on a Windows company machine). It installs quickly, runs smoothly, and the updates have been painless.
I like having a terminal open constantly, and learning about technical workings and power user features I may not have known about. However, for non-techie "email and web browsing” use, I would put it in front of my parents no problem. Right out of the box it even looks a bit like windows (cinnamon version, didn’t try others). It even has an “app store” like experience with the software package manager.
If a power user has trouble because they’re used to configuring windows, they can probably learn how to do those settings on a user-friendly Linux distro.
That does not mean it would work for everybody, and that does not mean it won’t break in frustrating ways. It was programmed by humans, after all.
Yeah … No. Ubuntu is way more stable for me than win10. And much lazier to use. This argument was true ten years ago but Ubuntu and friends are really just install and click browser just like most people use Chromebooks
Linux is just the kernel and infinitely superior to anything Microsoft has ever produced by itself. Stability and usability issues arise from the distribution that is being used, there are many that are tailored for the average consumer and that are just as simple to use as Windows. People like to forget it, but Android also uses the Linux kernel and is the most successful operating system in the world, with the amount of installed instances dwarfing the amount of Microsoft Windows installations.
Your mom would do just fine on Mint, and you know it.
Windows randomly decided to break for me many more times than Ubuntu did for my parents. Every time a sudden new update is pushed on the background, stalling anything I would be doing to a halt, it’s a roll of the dice if it will still function properly when it’s done.
Sure, and how easy was it to fix those issues?
Usually it is nothing more than either reversing an update or waiting for the next update in Windows.
While in Linux you’d have to re-import the correct repositories through command line and it might still not work, explain that to your parents.
How easy? Not at all. I’ve had to format the whole computer several times that reversing updates failed. At which point using Linux wouldn’t have been any harder.
Usually it is nothing more than either reversing an update or waiting for the next update in Windows.
…Waiting with a non-functional computer until the next update?.. Really?..
While in Linux you’d have to re-import the correct repositories through command line and it might still not work, explain that to your parents.
Why would a non-technical person ever need to use 3rd-party repos? Besides that, “reimporting” a repo is just adding 3-5 lines of text to a file, which can be done via gEdit, or, in most cases, through the settings in a distro’s package manager UI.
Poke about in registry, Google problems where the solutions are for the wrong version of windows, wade through driver problems, find that the issue is in a toggle that used to be easy to find in control panel but now is buried under layers of crap
What broken repository yiu talking about? My mum used Linux for over 10 years and she never saw Windows in her life. Email, YouTube, eBay… Never a problem. I can’t even imagine leaving her with Windows.
Yep… Moving to Lemmy it’s quite surprising how much of an echo chamber the Linux group has on here.
It’s a good OS, but being honest Windows is likely better for almost everyone as it’s a lot simpler to understand with good support. Don’t have to worry about comparability as much or other things either.
Open office and libre office are bad because you don’t like linux?
Who hurt you, Arch Linux?
if I didn’t work in IT and I didn’t play certain video games and I didn’t need certain recording software I would be 100% Linux it kind of pisses me off that I can’t be 100%.
That was a whole lot of “If I didn’t just” statements xD
Still, VMs and containers and such. Could still do it if you wanted.
Proton is revolutionary but it still isn’t a solution for every game. And that’s not even getting into the lack of support Nvidia gives to anything Linux.
I mean I’ve yet to come across a game that is unsupported on my Steam Deck. For all intents and purposes, gaming on Linux is the real deal.
The main issue comes when the game is using proprietary stuff. Like I found getting Kingdom Hearts to run at all was a pain in the arse because of it using a proprietary codec for it’s cutscenes.
I also found Hand of Fate 2 had some weird rendering issues with certain graphics settings.
And if you want to do Ray tracing or HDR you’re currently out of luck.
ShutUp10 and WinAeroTweaker are the GOATS.
winaero was a game changer, what is ShutUp10?
I just recently updated shutup10 because of another annoyance of windows and was surprised that it didn’t solve my problem right away. Even with shutup10 it’s barely bearable.
I don’t use either if those and I’m not having this “barely bearable” experience. What do you guys see that is bothering you so much? I don’t get any ads or crap installed when I setup a new PC. Is it because I’m using Win Enterprise?
Same experience as I. For now W11 has been smooth sailing. Sure I like using my Linux notebook more for coding and such, but W11 is not the devil people describe IMO
ITT: folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever, but are perfectly willing to jump through endless hoops to work around some of Windows’ deliberate hostility.
The Stockholm syndrome is real.
In my experience Linux usually has many more hoops…
I’ve reinstalled both Linux and Windows on the same machine a few weeks ago and it was considerably easier and faster to install Linux. It also had less problems post-install too.
Installing Linux is incredibly fast and easy, yeah. It’s everything you try to do after that. Unless you are a regular user and have commands memorized you need to open a browser and go look them up every time you need to do some basic shit. I’ve been using Linux off and on since 2008 and you just cannot say with a straight face that it is easier than windows.
I’m a developer, so I find it easier because dependency management is easier (especially if you have a good package manager, arch btw). WSL is improving but is still not enough for my needs (big projects that use usb are not well supported).
Opening up a browser to look up commands to copy and paste is a lot easier than looking up registry fixes and mimicking screenshots into GUIs. I fix Windows for a living and the crazy shit I see daily blows my mind. It seems like in Windows I’m doing the same thing multiple times until it (hopefully) works but in Linux the problem is easier to identify and fix.
folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever
At one point this was true, but that was many years ago.
Unfortunately, that reputation has kind of stuck.
Not really. You are underestimating how stupid the average person is. They cannot peel an orange.
deleted by creator
Microsoft only hurts me when I’m being a bitch. Its my fault. He’s normally really nice.
: folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever, but are perfectly willing to jump through endless hoops to work around some of Windows’ deliberate hostility.
Man I realised this when I found myself running a third party program just to get my audio to simultaneously play out of multiple outputs on windows. I had regular issues with games and my killer ethernet adapter (they’re notoriously bad, but after switching to linux didn’t have any issues). Reformatting for home was getting longer and longer. Start menu search started to become slow and bogged down. Windows store was a nightmare. It was a constant battle to remove all the advertising and tracking “features”. I game, but mostly a PC for me is a tool. When a tool stops doing its job, it gets replaced.
Funnily, when I play games with my friends, I rarely have issues… but as soon as I do, they they’re pretty quick to jump down my throat about my OS of choice.
I think Windows makes multiple audio input/output hard as a piracy measure and it drives me crazy as well. Perfectly good audio ruined the moment I plug my mic in.
I use Linux full time since 2020, and have known it since 2013~, but I don’t ever recommend it to anyone. It’s full of papercuts.
I actually like to be able to play games on my gaming PC so no thanks, I will stay with windows
That’s wholly your prerogative, but I just wanted to chime in and say - I was firmly in this camp too, but I’ve been restricted to a shitty second PC as I don’t have access to my usual rig at the moment. Decided it was the time to give Linux a shot after 4-5 years since last time. Every game I’ve tried has worked with 0 mucking around, outside of games I’m obtaining through uh, less ethical means, which don’t just install straight through Steam.
I know it’s only anecdotal and I’m not saying you have to change if you’ve got no reason to, but gaming isn’t really the reason it used to be for not using Linux. Unless you only play competitive shooters with Anti-Cheat that doesn’t work on Linux.
Downgraded my new desktop computer from Win11 to Win10 this weekend. Still considering if I shouldn’t just go back to Linux now that Valve has made gaming on Linux viable…
Have you checked if your games are supported on ProtonDB?
Worst case scenario, you could always set up a dual boot situation if there are just one or two games you play that aren’t supported. That’s what I’ll probably end up doing on my main rig eventually since the only game I’d really miss that’s not supported is ESO.
AFAIK ESO is working fine.
Oh I thought I read somewhere that it’s not. Well, this is good news for me!
When I have time, I’ll try it just to be sure.
I don’t own the Steam version, not sure if that matters.
I’ve been playing ESO through Lutris for a few years. It works great!
Dual boot doesn’t work anymore with win11, it requires secure boot to be enabled, so the grub boot loader won’t work. Idk if anyone has found a work around though.
This is patently false and misleading. Windows 11 does NOT require secure boot to be activated, given that my computer is currently working right now with it off. Dualbooting Fedora and Win11 perfectly fine, update doesn’t affect GRUB at all, and it just works. Windows is already shit enough that you don’t need to be spreading any false info.
I’m holding out as long as I can on Win10 for gaming. It’s my hope that Linux gaming will be compatible with most of my games by the time I have to choose between Win11 and Linux. Last time I checked there were a few games I was interested in that weren’t completely compatible with SteamOS.
I want to switch to gaming on linux so bad. Just a few weeks ago I ran into a sudden issue where any source game I launched in windows would crash my graphics driver, totally unrecoverable without restarting the PC (even shift+ctrl+win+b did nothing) and on some restarts I found myself being forced to boot on integrated graphics and fully reinstall drivers. Total shitshow, started while I was midgame and came out of nowhere, couldn’t figure anything out.
I finally gave up and installed mint, got steam set up and downloading, started moving over some my backed up files… only to find out that a thing I’d ordered to make my VR headset wireless wasn’t going to have Linux drivers. I was gonna have to dual boot windows at the very least. And I’ve had other experiences where Windows updates have broken Grub and forced me to do reinstalls as well, so…
The day can’t come fast enough where companies just build stuff for Linux. The Windows UI gets worse with every release, and it’s really not as bug-free as people seem to think, it just has market share and companies tend to build for it by default. Completely self-fulfilling prophecy.
I was gonna have to dual boot windows at the very least. And I’ve had other experiences where Windows updates have broken Grub and forced me to do reinstalls as well, so…
You didn’t have to reinstall. You just have to boot from a live USB and then run like three commands to fix it. But yes, that is indeed unironically more work to figure out and safely do.
When choosing the region/language, choose “English (World)”. Boom, bloatware be gone.
You can safely change it to your correct region once you’ve logged in (Note: the Windows Store won’t work until you do).
the Windows Store won’t work until you do
So just never do it. Noted.
Remember some ‘core’ apps, such as Paint and Calculator are delivered via the Store now too - so they’ll also be missing.
Good. Those are easily replaced by FOSS alternatives.
Why is this?
Because the paid-for “bloat” is per region. If you don’t define the region… taps side of forehead
Been using Windows since XP, watched it get worse with every iteration while getting a shiny new exterior. Was finally forced from Windows 7 to Windows 10 a few years ago and the day Windows tries to foist 11 on me is the day I go fully down the Linux rabbit hole.
I’ve used Windows since 3.1. I thought XP was such a great advancement. I feel like 7 is overall better than XP, but not an all out improvement. 10 is worse than 7, but they’re forcing 7 out. I hate 11. I want to by a new PC, and 11 is the biggest thing holding me back. Could I buy it and install something else? Sure, but I don’t want to pay for this terrible program.
Getting “professional” versions and installing them has generally been the way to work around Windows bullshit. I haven’t gone to 11 yet, and the vibe I get from folks is that there is no escaping it. But folks have been saying that about Windows forever.
I have used professional versions of 10 through work, and they are better, but they still have a bunch of junk. I hear that Windows 11 is worse in this regard. It also still doesn’t fix the problem of encouraging MS to do these things. I’m not looking to build a PC either, so I’d be buying something that comes preloaded with a consumer version, then need to buy a pro version, and now I’ve bought this crap twice, greatly rewarding MS for their poor practices.
Anyone got a spare Linux CD key?
You might like this little program: https://github.com/MrGlockenspiel/activate-linux
Yep, here you go: []
Unironically I might for Lindows
I had not heard of Lindows. What a crazy world. Thanks for mentioning it.
My first introduction to Lindows was as a teenager in an internet cafe circa 2005. It was quite the novelty back then and we all got a good laugh out of it.
I told my company I’m not using windows 11 and I refuse to update my laptop. I told them the day their babysitter DRM software forces my kids irl laptop to switch over is the day I bring in my personal laptop from home that runs linux.
My boss thinks I’m bluffing but I’m not. What will be interesting is to see if they force me to use it or not. I’m allowed to use it when I work from home so I don’t see an issue bringing it into the office for the same purpose.
Also I have a really good relationship with my management team so a lot of this is pretty light hearted. One of them told the new girl not to ask me to fix her computer because I’ll probably install linux on it 😅
Your work sounds like it has no IT Security department and no HR department
Correct. Small company.
I refuse to update my laptop
Is it your laptop, or is it their laptop? If it’s yours, you have every right to request that they issue a corporate laptop if they need you to use Windows 11 to do your job. Otherwise, it’s time to grow up - it’s not like they’re forcing you to commit an OSHA violation.
I have both and you clearly missed the part where I said this is light hearted. You’re telling a random dude in the internet to grow up when your self inserting yourself into a situation and taking it to a 10.
Do you realize how unhinged you sound? Go fuck off.
I mean…who are you kidding, you probably will.
I already have mint installed on my work laptop. But I’m only allowed to edit our work videos there since their stupid DRM doesn’t work in linux and they own the laptop so I get it.
Carl?!
The enshittification started at Win 8 and has picked up speed.
People don’t like to believe it but this shit started back in 98 or even earlier. It’s kinda what Microsoft has always done.
I remember when I first installed Linux. I thought it was broken because it was so clean and distraction free.
I thought it was broken when I told it to poweroff and suddenly it just died. Nope, apparently that’s just how linux normally shuts down.
My laptop upgraded to Windows 11. It broke the headphone jack and built in speakers. The computer just doesn’t detect them anymore. O_o
Windows 11 would CONSTANTLY turn off my headphones microphone at a hardware level. Running the “recording audio” troubleshooter was the only way to fix. Probably the only thing that windows troubleshooter fixed for me in 25 years.
Linux Mint worked out the box never going back. Feel bad for people who need Adobe.
This is one of the best tools I’ve used, works really well!
I just reinstalled Windows after not having a computer for a long time. I’m glad I just happened across this beforehand because it was the best.
Everyone should use this to some extent, even just to disable tracking
The last version of Windows I used (and loved) was Windows 2000. It was rock solid and came with nothing but the basics. The install ISO was only 300 MB. 500 MB after service packs were merged. Almost pefect.
God, I hate reinstalling Windows. Whenever I see “Try reinstalling Windows” as a serious solution to some tech problem on the Windows forums I feel so irritated because to get everything back to how it was (*hopefully *minus the issue) is basically a half day to full day undertaking because of all the bloat and annoying settings I have to change.
Linux never annoyed me as much as long as I put my home directory on a separate partition, though to be fair, I didn’t use it as much and was never quite as balls deep in custom settings and apps as with Windows due to Windows being a requirement for work.
This will help get rid of some of the bloat. I run this on every w11 install I do.
https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/winutil
