I wanted to get others’ takes but it seems like the only real way to get a non-spying car is to get an older car without any sort of telemetrics. I saw a video about different car companies’ security policies, well specifically the new Mental Outlaw video, and it just blew me away how even our cars aren’t safe. Anyone got tips for how to anonymize their car?
ITT people are all dismissive because you can’t actually be anonymous on the road (license plates, speed cameras…), but, honestly, I just want a car that doesn’t listen in on my conversations, sell my data to brokers, require any passanger to accept the privacy policy, or record the times I have sex (jk it won’t be able to if I don’t have any)
Mozilla Foundation did a deep dive into this. And the results where abysmal. The only brands not completely horrifying where Renault/Dacia because they are European and only serve the European market so they have to follow GDPR.
Wait, Renault doesn’t ship anything outside the EU?
It does, to India.
Nice to know
I have a 06 jeep wrangler, used to do 20 mpg but gets more around 15-17 now, which I plan on making some efficiency improvements. But its a pretty reliable engine and I live in a rural area so having an all terrain vehicle gives me some piece of mind.
If your planning on getting an older vehicle, do some preventative maintenance such as a new battery, make sure amps are equal or greater. Change the oil if it hasn’t been done. Get new belts. Get new spark plugs. Get a decent set of tires. Use fuel system cleaner.
If you plan on getting a newer vehicle you could probably pull a fuse to disable it from transmitting, but I don’t know if it would actually work.
Are there any write-ups on the situation in Europe under GDPR-legislation? Mostly I read about the US-situation which seems like the wild west, but I can’t imagine that it is perfectly fine in the EU either even if you opt-out of using their apps etc.
I did not watch the mentioned video so I am not sure if what I am about to mention is discussed there or not. Also, sorry for the really long reply!
I am not aware of any available truly privacy respecting, modern cars. However, assuming theat you obtain one or you can do things like physically disconnect/remove all wireless connectivity from the car to make it as private/secure as possible, there still is little you can do to be truly anonymous.
Your car likely has a VIN and license plate as well as a vehicle registration. Assuming you legally obtained the vehicle and did not take any preventative measures prior to purchasing the car, those pieces of information will be tied back to you and your home address (or at least someone closely connected to you). You would need to initially obtain the vehicle via a compsy/LLC/partnership/etc. as the owner/renter/leasee of the vehicle and an address not associated to you. Additionally, you would need to find some means of avoiding or limiting the additional information connected to you that is likely required to obtain the vehicle like car insurance and your drivers license.
Additionally, any work that certain mechanics perform may be shared (either directly or indirectly) with data brokers - even just routine maintenance like an oil change or alignment. Hopefully you didn’t use your credit card, loyalty rewards program, etc. when you had any work done!
There is also CCTV, security cameras, and other video recorders that are nearly impossible to avoid. Given enough time/resources and maybe a little bit of information, your car could be tracked from its origin to destination locations. This location history can be used to identify you as the owner (or at least driver/passenger) of the car. Unless your car never leaves your garage, you can almost guarantee that your car is on some Ring camera, street camera, etc.
Furthermore, anything special or different about your car (custom decal, unusual window tinting, funny bumper sticker, uncommon color for the car, uncommon trim/package for the car, dented bumper, fancy rims, replaced tires, specific location of toll reader placement on the windshield, something hanging from your rear mirror, etc.) all help identify your car. The make/model and year of your car can also be used to identify your car if its not a common car in the area. These identifiers can be used to help track your car via the video feeds mentioned above.
Then there are license plate readers which are only slightly easier to avoid than the video recordings. Permanent, stationary license plate readers can be found on various public roads and parking lots. There are also people who drive around with license plate readers as part of their job for insurance/repossession purposes. You may be able to use some sort of cover over your license plate(s) to hinder the ability of license plate readers to capture your plate number, but that could be used to help identify your car in video feeds/recordings.
Should be quite easy to remove any WiFi/cellular/satellite antennas from the car’s computer. (Might be trace/chip antennas, so make sure to get those). If you’re extra paranoid, get the GPS antenna too, so it can’t simply record data indefinitely.
Might take a few hours to go through the car to make sure you get everything, but you won’t be limited to super old cars.
I don’t believe for a second that the car won’t be sending either an unremovable error message, a constant and un-mute-able audible alarm, or a complete lockout of subsystems or the entire system itself. The best case scenario is that this is a mild inconvenience.
Depending on the car you might be able to physically disable telemetry. Here are some thoughts/ideas I’ve been collecting:
- Hit “SOS” button and opt-out of all services through customer service. This of course requires trusting the company to actually do it.
- It’s possible that the info could be stored locally and then uploaded when it gets serviced though
- Remove the fuse to the modem/data communication module (DCM)
- Disconnect wiring to the LTE antennas
- A number of people have mentioned that they can get the dealer to disconnect the telemetry as a precondition to buying. For instance, here.
- Jump the data communication module (DCM) cable with a ~$70 dongle to bypass just the telematics components
- Disconnect the DCM cable, which will likely gimp the infotainment if not other systems, or remove the entire DCM unit
Quite a few cars also still have a SIM card hidden somewhere, which can be removed. The location of it varies widely though and they’re usually pretty hard to find.
You need a line break between your paragraph and your list.
Depending on the car you might be able to physically disable telemetry. Here are some thoughts/ideas I’ve been collecting:
- Hit “SOS” button and opt-out of all services through customer service. This of course requires trusting the company to actually do it.
- It’s possible that the info could be stored locally and then uploaded when it gets serviced though
- Remove the fuse to the modem/data communication module (DCM)
- Disconnect wiring to the LTE antennas
- A number of people have mentioned that they can get the dealer to disconnect the telemetry as a precondition to buying. For instance, here.
- Jump the data communication module (DCM) cable with a ~$70 dongle to bypass just the telematics components
- Disconnect the DCM cable, which will likely gimp the infotainment if not other systems, or remove the entire DCM unit
Oh, it looked Ok in my app (Voyager). But I added the line break.
- Hit “SOS” button and opt-out of all services through customer service. This of course requires trusting the company to actually do it.
- Hit “SOS” button and opt-out of all services through customer service. This of course requires trusting the company to actually do it.
I’ve got a 2009 dumb car and I am babying it because I dread having to try to buy a new to me car that isn’t full of telemetrics and other modern car garbage.
Learn how to work on it
I already do. I’m no mechanic, but I’ve made numerous repairs over the years and am familiar with and can do basic car maintenance.
Take a look at motorcycles. They tend to be far behind the curve technology wise, and only Zerocycles have a telemetry system afaik.
they’re also dirty as fuck.
Remove the cellular modem.
Get rid of the car
What are the chances the software is designed to throw errors and “See a technician” messages if you dk?
We need an iFixit-like database giving each car a score about how easy it is to unplug the telematics units and what errors it may result in, complete with a score.
Not small, but I think you’ll have better chances with the mid level commuter cars. You’ll probably get some error messages on some of them, but if you can ignore them, they wouldn’t stop the car from running.It’s the high end ones and EVs that have a higher chance of bricking if you disable the antenna.
Depends on the car but I’d say the chance is above 50%
I’ve heard it can cause problems in some models, so people need to do their research. With my truck it’s dead easy and are no drawbacks.
My suggestion, if you’re looking for a new car, is to research where the modem in the car is, and unplug it during the test drive (assuming it’s reachable).
I unplugged the one in my work truck, 2023 Ford F150. They call it the “Telematics unit” and it’s on the rear cab wall on the right side, hidden behind the sound deadening foam. I did this after it was bought, but if I had known about it before my boss paid it, I definately would have tried it before the test drive to make sure, and I plan to do it if/when I look for a newer car!
I unplugged every cable coming into it - power, antennas, data, all of them! The only issue that comes up is the center screen on the dash crashes back to the main menu when you try to open the data/wifi settings.
No other issues so far after almost 5k miles! No warnings, no lights on the dash, nothing! Android auto/carplay even still works! Don’t know yet if the dealer will try to plug the unit back in during the next service, but I intend to raise hell if they try!
And add a Faraday’s cage. There are other things except for cellular connection used in cars such as WiFi and Bluetooth.
I’d want bluetooth for music from my phone though. And it’d be nice if my phone’s cellular and GPS didn’t get blocked.
Isn’t your phone far more connected to your identity than your car? As in, if your worried about Toyota or Ford tracking your vehicles driving statistics it seems using GPS and wifi and Bluetooth on your phone that also has all your payment info, browsing history, and all your passwords saved defeats the entire purpose of worrying about your car. However, at least your phone gives you a benefit to using it like navigation and music, your car just mines your location data.
Privacy is not just black and white.
But then the car can send the data via unprotected WiFi spots. I don’t think you can turn off autoconnect.
That’s impractical. Bluetooth and Wi-Fi also needs modems so just remove those too.
I mean sure if you can find and remove them. They’re very small.
They’re going to be in the same location for a given model year, which somebody will likely have documented online.
Most of the cars will still try to connect to open Wifi when available to upload data.
Very nice ! That’s when you can start spying on your car’s behavior.
Not really. If they use TLS / HTTPS then you won’t see a damn thing.
Yeah. Believe me most of these embedded controllers are not very well programmed. Play a bit with fake certificates and I won’t be astonished if you to catch something.
Perhaps disconnecting the RF antenna, and replacing it with an appropriate termination?
It’s possible to get cars as new as 2019 where you can just pull a fuse. But it starts to get tricky.
Example my C7 Vette it only took about that (it was a bit of an ordeal to not brick the car) but it’s not connected to shit anymore.
Telemetry data will still be saved in the car systems, but not broadcast anywhere. So not too bad
Right to repair must apply to cars as well.
Even if you pull the fuse for the modem or install a dummy load in place of the antenna, there’s a license plate on the outside and cameras are always watching. Driving isn’t ever private.
Law enforcement use of ALPRs is rapidly expanding, with tens of thousands of readers in use throughout the United States; one survey indicates that in 2016 and 2017 alone, 173 law enforcement agencies collectively scanned 2.5 billion license plates. According to the latest available numbers from the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, 93 percent of police departments in cities with populations of 1 million or more use their own ALPR systems, some of which can scan nearly 2,000 license plates per minute.
Your license plate is public, not private. Heck it’s not even yours, just like a driver’s license. The government is essentially loaning it to you which gives you permission to drive, same with the plates.
The point I was trying to make is driving a car is inherently not private due to license plates. Of course license plate readers can’t get information directly from the ECU, but thinking you’re going to be driving privately because you don’t have a modem in your car is naive, IMO. Car privacy is shit even if you disable the modem, which I wasn’t recommending against. Of course you should disable it. It’s still a very public activity you’re doing that’s likely being tracked by license plate readers.
Really not sure why you got down voted so hard and it’s a shame your comment was deleted. Your comment was relevant, accurate, and focused on an issue that others aren’t talking about in here (and apparently don’t want to). You were also the only person in this thread who provided any sources.
I’m not sure what argument can be made against what you said. Just because a piece of information “is public” doesn’t mean everyone wants that public information collected and shared with little (if any) control/input by you. If that were the case, doxxing wouldn’t be an issue.
Yes, banning mass surveillance systems including ALPR is a good idea too. In the mean time, go ahead and take care of the problems that are your own responsibility. Disable the modem, and don’t buy a car that has one unless you’re sure you can do that.
Definitely keeping me far away from upgrading, newest vehicle is an early 2000s Corolla and still does 40mpg.
Honestly with how cheap and easy it is to fix at home, barring safety improvements I really don’t see a point in upgrading. Infotainment is just another component that will eventually go obsolete like the ones from ~2010 that are dog slow and a pain to go aftermarket on.
Yeah, this is something always in the back of my mind. There’s no way I could replace the one in my car without serious modification. There’s a bunch of shit integrated into it (heat/air controls, safety feature toggles, etc.) and it takes up the entire center of the dashboard.
Another awful “innovation”. The screen in my 2016 van just does maps, music, and radio. I can swap it out no issue if I want (but I don’t want android auto so I don’t). The climate controls are still physical knobs thank god.
Buy an electric bicycle and use the money you would have spent on a car to run for a seat for local office on the platform to improve local transit infrastructure
How good are they in ice and snow? Probably a bit dangerous and cold I’d think.
I did all my transportation and shopping with a mountain bike for a year and it’s kind of difficult on snow and ice, fell over some. The trick is to never turn at all when on that stuff, but it’s still hard. The cold makes the oil for the mechanisms work worse too, you need special oil. My hands got very cold holding on to the handlebars, you need to find some balance between gloves that hold warmth and resist the wind and gloves that let you have enough dexterity for the brakes and shifters.
I live in the nordics, while you can get chain lubes meant for extreme cold, negative twenties to thirties should be fine to ride using any lube.
Interal bearing lubrication is not a concern, same for shifters and brakes. Hydraulic breaks are not a concern, provided there is no moisture in rhe system.
Gloves are a must, of course, but I’ve several sets for a range temperatures, you can do just fine all the way up to pretty thick finger gloves. Some people here like to use three finger gloves to let some of their fingers buddy up.
Studded tires also make a huge difference. I can ride without them, but studs basically eliminate the most common way to fall without seeing it coming, your tires just sliding out from under you on smooth ice.
Though it doesn’t help on loose snow thick enough the tire won’t sink through to contact the ground. For that you need width and tons of tread.
Bike poggies are worth looking into to keep your hands warm. Studded tires can help with slipping too
There are studded tires you can get for ice but I’m not certain about their application on electric bikes.
The problem with that though is they aren’t legal everywhere. I know where I’m at we can’t have studded tires.
Bicycles can’t or vehicles can’t? There’s a vast difference in weight and I imagine most wouldn’t even notice.
I know you can’t on a motorcycle so I’d assume you can’t on an ebike as well.
I don’t live in the snow so never tried in real life, but local laws usually classify different levels of two wheeled vehicles. Some laws treat level 2 and under, where most e-bikes are, the same as bicycles. Mopeds and motor-driven cycles are a level above that are allowed on surface streets the same as cars but too underpowered for the highway. Then the level above that is the traditional motorcycle that are allowed on streets and highways.
tl;dr, it might be allowed for e-bikes to have studded tires depending on how local laws classify it.
Yes buy studded tires will help a lot
I don’t have any tips, but I wish I did. My car’s just over a year old and I don’t even like driving it since I found out it’s spying on me all the time. The ‘infotainment’ system is also integrated with everything in the vehicle so turning it off isn’t an option. I really like the car, but I feel like privacy is something that shouldn’t have to be a consideration when buying a vehicle. I’m just about positive there’s not a new vehicle available in the US market without one of these things in it unless you’re buying fleet vehicles.
Sell it and get a old pickup truck. Those things go forever
