I’ve been seeing more often (and others have posted the same) that some of the elements of “Reddit etiquette” seem to be taking over here. Luckily I can still find discussion comments but it seems the jokes and general “downvote because I disagree” are slowly taking over.
So the question becomes is it the size or the functionality of the site? The people or popularity? What’s your thoughts?
Gamifying the voting incentivises people to make low quality posts and comments. That’s why Reddit is now basically just rage bait fake stories with comment chains that all look exactly the same. And now it’s all just ai generated anyway.
I sometimes visit and read the AITAH type stories and I’m dumbfounded that people can believe or enjoy reading them. All the subtleties and nuances of the early days are gone and it’s a race to who can karma farm the hardest.
The other thing that made Reddit great in early days were the small communities being visible on the front page. It made the content varied and there were different types of posting hitting front page. I think Lemmy is struggling with this because politics is just so loud that we don’t have enough volume of other content being made.
I really agree with the excessive news e politics comunitties. I have a hard time setting a good feed 'cause of that
Indeed. When’s the last time we saw a well-thought-out, controversial opinion on Reddit?The system breeds behaviors that are in conflict with a high-quality, diverse discussion.
It is for the same reason that I’m very particular about my downvotes. They are reserved for low-quality content, not that which I personally disagree with. I’d like if we could all learn to be less judgmental and more constructive so that we may all learn something meaningful. I think this is incompatible with the way that Reddit operates.
my downvotes. They are reserved for low-quality content, not that which I personally disagree with.
There was more of that in the early days of Reddit. At some point everyone abandoned that principle, and from them on every thread became more of a battle than a conversation.
As someone who recently switch to Lemmy, I did notice that there is a general difference in the tone of conversation. This is the first time I’ve seen it put to words
I wonder if separating relevant/irrelevant & like/dislike into two votes would have any success. Quite likely it would not, but might be worth trying.
Would probably rename [ like / dislike ] to [ agree / disagree ] to avoid overlapping with [ relevant / irrelevant ]. To make it more robust, make voting for relevancy compulsory if voting for [ agree / disagree ].
But the reported stats is all moot if there’s bot manipulation anyway. Also, people would most likely say it’s relevant even if it’s actually not, just because they agree with it
Using scaled sorting really helps with getting smaller communities on the front page. I still see the political and news communities but I also see communities for cities and niche hobbies.
I remember when Reddit’s best “reading” threads just suddenly shifted. AITA, JustNoMIL, TalesFromTechSupport, TalesFromRetail, all of a sudden they went from realistic stories of real people venting to… just obvious rage bait. It was so disappointing. It was one of the best things to read on the bus, here’s someone going through something, can offer support, laugh about it, whatever.
It went from stories like “I had someone demand a manager when I wouldn’t offer them 40% off” to “someone pulled a gun on me at work, and my manager told me I should have punched them”. Just such horrible bullshit. That’s when I knew the site was going downhill.
I think Lemmy is struggling with this because politics is just so loud that we don’t have enough volume of other content being made.
I regularly suggest people to block those communities, or consider an alt to follow those
if we can avoid Lemmy’s most active city being Eglin Air Force Base, we just might be able to avoid the hive mind
Shills bots and feds haha
When you got no friends, you can count on them to provide healthy engagement every single time
Imo, it likely was/is due to the voting system — and, in a similar sense, awards. Redditors want to increase their Karma scores and seem to, at least subconsciously, view it as clout. So, they’ll create posts with the intent of farming these points — ie they post things that they know will get a specific response from the masses. What also doesn’t help, and is something that Lemmy similarly suffers from, is that there generally is no established consensus on how votes should be used. An upvote could mean agreement, or that a post is funny, or that it’s good quality, or that it’s on topic for a community, etc. A downvote could mean that the person disagrees with the post, or that they think that it isn’t relevant or they simply don’t like the OP. In reality, all that votes do, at the fundamental level, is tell the algorithm where it should place posts (a personalized recommendation algorithm changes this a bit, but the effect is essentially the same) — a post with a large upvote to downvote to ratio gets shown higher up and, by extension, more than one with a smaller ratio. This creates a sort of feedback loop where the posts that get farmed for upvotes get shown more. This biasing towards only upvotes creates a bias for content. People don’t want their post to be buried, so they’ll only post what they think will get upvotes. And since upvotes are usually used for things that illicit an “agreement” response, only posts that people agree with will be shown.
The solution to these issues, imo, is to create an obvious standard for how votes are used and change how they’re interpreted by the algorithm. Imo, Facebook was on the right track with how they were using emojis as the voting method. People generally react to posts with emotion, and an emoji is well representative of that. You could potentially still have an up/down form of vote (alongside the emotional voting options), but it would be standardized to only be used as a metric for relevance/importance/correctness. This could be enforced by moderation, if votes were publicly viewable, by allowing moderators to remove people that are vote brigading (not including emotional votes). Emotional votes probably shouldn’t be considered by the algorithm so that emotional bias can be avoided. Or, at the very least, there should be different algorithms that take these voting types into account I’m different ways. In addition to this, also removing the gamification aspect (not showing (at least not publicly) total scores on profiles).
Lemmy has the same deficient content sorting system. Just +1 or -1, no amplitude, no tagging just dumb total score plus hidden moderation interference shaping the discussion from the shadows.
The power triping mods. They made their way here. Twas indeed sad.
It’s mod revolt that was lemmy’s first big push. Unfortunately this means they are the major force shaping Lemmy in their image. They want unchanged reddit except they want their fiefdom secured and that’s all we’re getting. Lemmy is not the last stop in the slashdot->digg->reddit->Lemmy exodus. I just hope we’re not stuck here another whole decade again.
I’m disappointed in Lemmy’s lack of experimentation or innovation here.
Yes, they are largely stuck in the toxic reddit mindset.
You’re right. Votes need to be used to encourage debate and not used to discourage wrong think.
Down votes should only be used for off topic/hateful/bad faith arguments etc and not just used because “I disagree”.
I know that realistically, that’s never going to happen but it would help!
Moderation and mods being accountable.
Public modlogs help a lot
I was thinking the same thing. Reddit is a cesspool because communities shut out anyone who dissents with a group’s opinions, allowing the group to continue thinking “everyone” believes the same thing they do. Sure it’s a good thing for mods to be able to quickly block obvious troublemakers, but there needs to be an unbiased review process in place when someone is kicked out simply for disagreeing or asking legitimate questions. Echo chambers are bad.
Telling someone they’re disgusting for being POC or LGBT+ is a good example of an action that deserves an immediate ban. Asking someone what policies a political figure implemented that benefited you should NOT be a reason for a ban, especially if you’re only banning them because you can’t answer the question.
I’m not quite sure how the process works on Lemmy, but I feel like moderation should include incremental periods. Like the first time you get blocked for a day, then a week, then a month, and finally a permanent ban. And a person should be able to request a review of their ban, which would be judged by a panel of mods from random groups and instances to limit people of like minds all piling on for the same butt-hurt feelings. There should be ways to make things more fair than just reddit’s policy of an invisible admin making decisions based on their mood that day.
On Lemmy the safeguard to mod abuse is instance admins. On Reddit this can take place, but rarely does. The only time admins on Reddit really step in is when mods are allowing illegal behaviour on their sub, or when mods are protesting against their own shitty behaviour. But on Lemmy it’s much easier to reach out to an instance’s admins if something is going wrong. Mod actions are all public, so you can create a post explaining what happened and it’s not just a “he said/she said” situation.
If they aren’t being responsive to feedback, the appropriate response is to start up a new community, preferably on a different instance. Or, in the extreme case, to block that instance entirely. You can even build a consensus to doing this with a “panel” consisting of…every user on the platform. That’s essentially how !tenforward@lemmy.world became the de facto Star Trek meme community, rather than !risa@startrek.website, after the mods of the latter community were shown to be abusing their powers and the instance admins refused to take remedial action.
Stop over-policing people. Just because you disagree with something someone says, doesnt mean you have a right or duty to shut them down
Remove downvotes. Unironically, its a good idea. Requires people to actually engage with something if they disagree rather than just downvote and move on. Gets people talking & raises user engagement. Will be an uptick in shitflinging for a short while till all the assholes out themselves, get banned, and site culture improves from that alone.
i’ve seen this in a few instances and i think it’s made them better
One of my several Reddit accounts followed that principle: only upvotes allowed, no downvotes. Then, when I said that in a comment someone discussed with me how stupid they thought that practice was. They believe it was completely undesirable for Reddit, citing what happened in YouTube after they removed the downvote option. I didn’t care to understand, but that experience allowed me to develop a perennial restraint for hitting the downvote button. I use it scarcely against what I’m convinced are trolls.
Fully agree, down votes are toxic and the fact that reddit has them should be a tell.
Moderation is a big part. Heavily libbed up mods such as the Lemmy.World ones are only allowing one perspective to be posted. Which is why the place is slowly turning into Reddit
This is done in three ways:
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Restricting what content is allowed to be posted using made up metrics like MBFC or calling anything they don’t like an opinion piece.
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Allowing users to insult those with differing opinions EG call them Russian bots or Trump supporters and only banning users when they insult those trolls back.
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.World/WorldNews style just banning anyone who doesn’t have a Biden style Zionist worldview.
The centralization around .World is one of the biggest issues facing Lemmy right now.
99% love the hive, are irrationally attracted to it. This includes moderators.
I had the same opinion. It’s absolutely moderation that reduces the amount of acceptable opinion and behavior. I can’t even have good faith discussions on controversial topics on multiple platforms because I am vaguely aware of what is considered the ‘right’ opinion.
A truly liberal mindset and healthy community would allow controversial opinions, but classic liberalism is demonized now in favor of absolutist values for conduct and morality.
So here’s what happens. When a person says a controversial thing and they’re banned, silenced, or shadow banned it reduces the amount of incidence for the offending opinion in that community, people who see the ban with the same opinion that want to participate in the community are left with choosing silence ( giving the impression that opinion was not common ) or additionally defending the person actioned against, which then also risks their removal from that community.
It’s really that simple. Moderation in my opinion should only go after the real problematic illegal stuff, but we shouldn’t be moderating out the actual good faith opinions that people have.
i was wondering if i was the only one that felt this way; since i keep getting banned and named called on lemmy.world and shitjustworks every time i try to let leftists posters know that lemmy.world doesn’t not represent the lemmyverse and that they’ll get a much better experience if they try almost any other instance.
You’re absolutely not the only one. My first Lemmy instance was .world, but I eventually left when I noticed that they were kinda manipulating their userbase to consent to an eventual defederation from .ml, on the grounds that it’s a “tankie” instance. The .world admins are really quick to ban any communist instance or community, and if all of them are banned, they just outright make shit up.
That was the red flag that made me jump ship, but honestly I don’t regret it at all. I didn’t truly realize the scope of .world manipulation until I started seeing Lemmy from a different instance.
Yeah, good point. I think it’s best to have multiple instances with similar subs so you can always move over easily. People should also make their accounts on different instances and be a bit more active there.
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Unfortunately I think people downvoting things they disagree with is kind of inevitable. People are notoriously combative online, and if they’re given an option to drown someone out, they’re going to abuse it. And that makes it even easier for any sort of hivemind to kick in.
I personally don’t know a better system, but it’s not perfect.
Reddit is notorious for astroturfing. The lemmy hivemind(s) is the lemmitor hivemind from people socialized on Reddit who came to lemmy and brought that shit with them. Same with other instances like .world, but worse because they have fewer legacy users.
Political correctness leads to hivemind 100%, because people are afraid to be ostracized.
If users were able to migrate their accounts that could help against centralization
What is that you care to preserve? Can’t you just register a new account and kill the old one? (genuinely curious)
Many users have stated they would like to keep their comment history and subscriptions. Move their account to a different instance. Having to start from scratch is a big hassle.
The fediverse concept is great but users are locked into the instance they create their accounts on. With so many instances it is better to just start somewhere and figure out what’s what later.
So far I am happy with my instance. But if I ever change my mind it would help if migration was simple.
Great point, are the lemmy devs (idk if it works that way?) aware of this?
The structure of Reddit’s content aggregation and curation leads to a regression to the mean. Things that are broadly agreed-upon, even if wrong, are amplified, and things that are controversial, even if correct, are attenuated. What floats to the top is whatever the hive mind agrees is least objectionable to the most people.
One solution that seems to work elsewhere is to disable downvoting. Downvoting makes it too easy to suppress controversial perspectives. Someone could put forward a thoughtful position on something, and if a few people don’t like the title and hit the downvote button, that post may be effectively buried. No rebuttal, no discourse, just “I don’t like this, make it go away.” Removing the downvote means if you don’t like something, you can either ignore it, or you can put effort into responding to it.
The “downvote to disagree” thing isn’t just an attitude problem, it’s a structural issue. No amount of asking people nicely to obey site etiquette will change the fact that the downvote button is a disagree button. If you don’t want a hive mind, you necessarily need to be able to allow for things you don’t like to be amplified.
Twitter is actually better for this than Reddit because it has the quote function. You can amplify something you don’t like as a way of getting other people to hate it with you. It’s not perfect, but there’s no way of having it both ways. “Reddiquette” was never a real thing, just a polite fiction that ignores the Eternal September world that we live in.
If you have the same structure as Reddit, you will recreate Reddit. Lemmy isn’t going to be different if all the incentives and interactive elements are the same.
I’m not sure I agree that disabling downvoting really solves the problem. It might help, but not a huge amount. Because you still end up with people upvoting stuff they like and not upvoting stuff they don’t. So instead of being +1/-1 it becomes +1/+0. The stuff that they would have downvoted still ends up sinking towards the bottom, just perhaps not quite as quickly as otherwise.
I do think your thoughts about quote Xits are really interesting though. It’s a two-edged sword. On the one hand, by amplifying what you’re disagreeing with you do also provide an opportunity for more people (rather than less, as on Reddit) to be exposed to it, potentially changing their mind. On the other hand, it’s a tool ripe for abuse and creating more harassment, especially since the people you’re amplifying it to are usually primed to agree with you.
A lot of the issues on Reddit is a human problem. I agree – solutions need to be built into the platform itself, by thoughtful design. It makes less work for the mods too.
The “downvote to disagree” thing isn’t just an attitude problem, it’s a structural issue. No amount of asking people nicely to obey site etiquette will change the fact that the downvote button is a disagree button. If you don’t want a hive mind, you necessarily need to be able to allow for things you don’t like to be amplified.
Actually, with enough interactions from different people (ie: enough data points) Lemmy should be able to determine if a comment brings value to the conversation (either positive or negative) or if it’s noise that should be ignored (and prioritized lower).
If you have 4 comments:
- Has 100 upvotes (in total)
- Another has 100 downvote (in total)
- Another has 50 upvotes and 50 downvote (100 in total with a 0 sum)
- The last was a new comment with 0 votes.
It’s obvious that 1 and 3 are providing more to the conversation than 2. 4 is a bit of an outlier, but probably provides more value than 2.
Regarding 3: The challenge would be that there’s a low chance that there will be such a wide margin of upvotes/downvotes. Due to the hive mind, the voting will probably look like 30 upvotes and 130 downvotes. So, there would need to be a weight accordingly, so those fewer upvotes had a greater impact (in terms of sorting and scoring comments)
Reddit has a “sort by controversial” algorithm that seems to be missing from Lemmy (or maybe it’s hidden in the “what’s hot" - I haven’t looked at the code).
It would be awesome (and resource intensive) if Lemmy could provide the federated instances with custom sorting algorithms. It would allow federated instances to be unique, provide some playful competition, and given the open source nature of Lemmy - I’m sure these algorithms would be open sourced, which would improve the entire Lemmy ecosystem as a whole.
You’re assuming that downvotes only come from individual users with good-faith opinions there.
Relying upon an automated system to decide the “value of a conversation” is, and will continue to be, an open invitation to gamify, metagame, and manipulate such automated systems, just as it was on Reddit and elsewhere.
They hive mind is just as strong on lemmy as it is on Reddit. which has led me to wind-down my engagement on lemmy and will very soon drop it all together. going back to RSS I guess or might try nostr next.
How it took over: liberalism
How to defeat it: agressive communist mods
No need to thank me 😌
Users upvoting/downvoting leads to a hivemind, even if the moderation is not complicit (which it often is).
