TL;DR: We tried to move the community because of moderatorial concerns, but fumbled how we went about doing so.
First and Foremost:
We’d like to formally apologize for springing this on you all out of nowhere, and for taking so long to respond to the backlash. With retrospect, we understand that we should have notified you all beforehand to create an opportunity to give us feedback. We understand that a lot of respect and trust was lost, and we expect it’ll take a lot of work and a lot of time before we can earn it back, but we would be grateful if y’all gave us that chance.
What happened, and why?
The primary issue that incited this was because we don’t fully agree with the admin’s moderation policies. By and large they do a great job and align with us on mod actions, but there have been several cases where we strongly disagreed, and our choices were overruled.
For example, 2 months ago, Kolanaki reached out to us via email and said they were banned from 196 for “playing the victim” and asked us why we banned him, but we didn’t. Moss talked to them and realized that the ban was unjust after reviewing the comment he was banned for. If he had never contacted us, we wouldn’t have known about the ban, and they would have still thought we banned them.
There were a few similar events in a short time frame, leading to a few posts/comments in the community about the heavier modding policies. It’s possible some posts/comments were misunderstood by Ada, or she interpreted things differently than we would have, but it led to some bans that we felt were indeed heavy-handed, and would not violate our rules in even the most uncharitable of interpretations. We have found that this is an ongoing trend when it comes to moderation of our community from the Admins. We oppose this because it leads to many users who otherwise mean well ending up alienated and removed for reasons that are frankly completely unfair. This is, in our opinion, counter to what we set out to build in our community.
It was made clear to us that it was their instance, and that we didn’t have a say in who would be banned and what would be removed. This is, of course, perfectly valid. It’s their instance, therefore it’s up to them to decide what goes, but we no longer wanted to be the ones seen as accountable for moderation actions we have no control over. For this reason, we wanted to transfer out of lemmy.blahaj.zone. As much as we wanted to stay in the LGBTQ instance, we couldn’t come to an agreement with Ada, so we talked to her about transferring out and got her blessing.
How we messed up
The most major failing on our part is, of course, that we didn’t announce the migration beforehand. Besides that, we also didn’t explain why we made the choices we made and only gave very vague answers. We avoided sharing the justification for our actions because we didn’t want to cause drama and/or exacerbate the situation, but this lack of substantiating our actions only caused the situation to worsen.
Going forward (if we may), we won’t make the same mistakes again. From now on, we will attempt to be as transparent as possible.
FAQ
Why we chose lemmy.world
Many people have been asking about why we moved to lemmy.world. It already hosts the majority of large communities and besides this uncomfortable level of centralization, it has also been somewhat controversial as of late. Despite that, we still chose lemmy.world due to the following reasons:
- Moss’s communication with the admins, and their agreement to let us moderate the community as we see fit. Ruud, after looking over our rules, agreed to abstain from taking admin action to curate or otherwise moderate our community, unless absolutely necessary.
- The instance is large enough to support traffic without performance issues (other instances like lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, and lemmy.dbzer0.com would have been fine too), and the instance has a certain degree of guaranteed longevity.
- Moss was given a list that was kindly made by the lemmy.world people as a part of our transfer detailing those who are banned on Blahaj.zone, but not on Lemmy.world, making moderation discrepancies much easier to clean up post-transfer.
- Our agreement with Ruud predated the now-rescinded policy changes
- It was, to the best of our knowledge, the most federated-with instance. We have come to understand that this is not necessarily the case.
Why not have another team take over the original 196?
This is a similar situation with what happened over on Reddit. 196 mods didn’t agree with admins and were eventually replaced (difference here is that we were not forced out, but chose to leave). As Lemmy was a large gathering spot for people fleeing Reddit, we felt it was better to try to keep the community together and move together. Having another team take over splits the community. The more fragmentation there is, the less longevity and volume of community each skew will have.
What about the possibility of more trolls, neoliberals, bad actors, sealions, and transphobes on Lemmy.world?
Another huge issue was that the mods and the community were not on the same page regarding lemmy.world, their admins, and their policies. We understand the concern about trolls/bad-actors/transphobes, but we feel well-equipped to handle these issues. In addition, we’ve been in contact with the lemmy.world admins for a while now, and they’ve assured us that they’d allow us to moderate our community however we saw fit. All this being said, we still failed to communicate that to the community before taking action, which has undermined any assurances that we have given after the fact. We cannot apologize enough for that.
What about the people who are using instances that are defederated from lemmy.world (e.g. Beehaw)
This is an unfortunate issue that we were not aware of at the time of transfer. We’re not sure what the solution is, but want to make our community as accessible as possible. Community solutions are welcome.
Did you migrate because of X? (addressing speculation)
- We didn’t migrate due to anything related to neopronouns
- We didn’t migrate due to us supposedly not wanting to use blahaj.zone lemmy accounts
- We didn’t migrate due to us having friends who were banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
- We didn’t migrate due to us wanting to make the space less queer/leftist/etc
- We didn’t migrate due to us getting secretly ousted by the Blahaj admin team
What now?
Well, we’re not sure. We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else. Truth be told, we don’t know what to do. For now, we will leave the comments open to civil community discourse, and choose our course of action from there.
Sincerely, Qaz, Rmbp, Greembow, A_Very_big_Fan, Peachy, and Moss.
I understand two of you were mostly behind the move. Perhaps those two should step down and new mods be brought in. Kind of hard to trust you after all this.
Trust? For an internet forum? About shitposting? Where everyone’s anonymous?
WTF is wrong with people
Everyone’s anonymous? Uh yeah sure just because the username isn’t linked to your person doesn’t mean you are anonymous.
And yeah the trust has been eroded, the trust of keeping the community a safe place.
…what are u trying to say?
I want to abuse people
Usually what people who make a big deal about how community trust shouldn’t matter in anonymous/pseudonymous spaces want. It’s how 8chan came to be
Pseudonymous, not anonymous. And yes, trust is an important factor in any community, including one dedicated to shitposting.
Especially a community that aims to be a safe haven for queer people who may be marginalized elsewhere.
Still No
YEAH I THINK MAKING A SEPERATE INSTANCE FOR YOU GUYS AND KEEPING 196 UNTOUCHED WOULD BE NICE CAN WE DO THAT PLEASE
AAAA LOUD WORDS!!
WHAT?
Rmbp
Is this supposed to be me? Sorry, but I don’t write a single word of this.__.
Not that I disagree, but I have not written or read anything before posting this. But nevertheless I thank you for the Update :D
The Feddit.de Instance and therefore my feddit.de Account is broken beyond repair. If anyone can just kick him out, this would be really nice since I can’t even log in anymore.
Damn, your arc keeps delivering
I’m suprised that this don’t got downvoted like my answers on the .world 196.
Perhaps because I’m not a Mod here?
I really tried to help over there and still got downvoted .__.
Blahaj doesn’t have downvotes. They’re disabled.
With my account I can’t downvote anything
I think people’s interactions with you were coloured by the fact that you were one of about three people who were vocally supportive of the mod team’s move. That you’re (unknowingly at the time) a member of it probably didn’t help, but was likely secondary.
Could be. Let’s see if people still want my help :3
You goofed up and lost the community’s trust, own to it and step down.
Maybe touch some grass too.
I refuse to believe that six individuals can be so enormously out of touch with the community they (used to) mod… what’s the real story?
Quite a big point missing here
Apparently none of the 196 moderators were actively checking the modlog?
Meaning instance moderator could just see a modlog appearing, and no-one dealing with it.
Moss, I know you can do better than painting the picture one-sided. It’s probably pretty stressful now, and I very much understand it.
We all check the modlog regularly. I do it ~5 days a week, on top of reading literally every post and the majority of the comments while I’m at it. The problem is federation, because it prevents us from seeing a complete log of the reports from any given instance.
And you know what? Fun fact!! LBZ was one of the first instances I ever signed up for. So perhaps if LBZ was the right instance to check reports from, it would have been super helpful both parties if they accepted my application. I’m still waiting two years later.
I’m sorry if I sound frustrated. It’s because I am. Not at you, I just don’t know where else to say my peace. Thanks for listening.
The problem is federation, because it prevents us from seeing a complete log of the reports from any given instance.
You don’t see any reports from a non-local account.
So perhaps if LBZ was the right instance to check reports from, it would have been super helpful for both parties if they accepted my application. I’m still waiting two years later.
You never bothered to ask for support on !main@lemmy.blahaj.zone ? Admins could have solved that in a few hours.
So you are telling us that even now you don’t have a functional Blahaj account?
This is also what in confused about. If the mods didn’t know about admin mod actions, surely that meant they weren’t reading the mod log? I don’t know the first thing about being a mod but this seems like there’s a pretty clear solution.
Reports don’t federate, you need a local account to see them.
Seems like this mod never bothered setting one up.
:confused-cat:
Sorry, I should have given more context. I meant that the mods’ behaviour confuses me a lot.
Oh, it is confusing indeed
Apparently none of the 196 moderators were actively checking the modlog
I actively checked for reports, but despite that, there have been 4 times since joining where Ada has sent a message in the 196 matrix chat because of outstanding reports. A large part of this was because resolving reports doesn’t federate. You can see a report, resolve it, send someone a DM for followup questions, and it will still show up as unresolved on blahaj.zone in the meantime. I log in with my blahaj account to ensure it’s marked as resolved there too, but not always immediately.
I think yall (the mod team) still misunderstand what you did wrong. You’re just repeating yourself. The problem is not that you failed to announce the migration, it is that you thought it was your choice to make, and that it even was an actionable decision. The fediverse, with each instance having it’s own communities, userbase and set of alliances & blockades, does not afford for unilateral deportation of a community.
Furthermore as moderators of a community you’ll always have to deal with instance admins. The fact you can’t cope with Ada’s safe space policy is a bad look. Quoting one debatable decision as “proof” is not helping. Your perception that you are somehow immune to ever disagreeing lemmy.world’s admins is strange.
Yeah this just about sums up my view of the situation.
Killed your own community rule
I wouldn’t say so. Beleive it or not, multiple similar communities can exist without issue
Start your own community. Be original
?we did? for both of these communities??
They mean instance
ohhhh
I thought Ada added you as a mod to this comm well after it’s creation?
not really. it had existed for a couple weeks unmoderated. no banner, icon, whatever
to be honest, I never trusted the mod team much for many minor things and now I dont trust u at all for this huge thing that u’ve been hiding for months apparently, if this community is coming back Id personally still prefer a different mod team
We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else.
I guess u could moderate the .world comm for the people that prefer that instance since there seems to be people that do including u, and the people that were going to mod the onehundredninetysix comm would mod this one
Reposting this since you said you were going to answer questions in the !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com post but this one is still unanswered:
If the move had nothing to do with pronouns and you’ll continue to enforce rules about neopronouns, how do you feel about one of the LW community team mods making statements like this about them? Do you feel confident that they will always let you enforce neopronoun rules if they decide that it’s hurting LW?
They’re not a LW admin, so they have no influence or control over us there. On top of that, we addressed this in the first question, reasons #1 and #4.
I guess I’m not sure what a “Community Team” member does, then, if they have no control or input on how LW policies are carried out in communities. I can’t find an explanation anywhere here so maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
They’re a mod of /c/lemmyworld, not an admin. And, again, this was addressed in the first question of the FAQ, reasons #1 and #4.
I understand they’re not an admin. In the page I linked you can see they’ve been put in the “Community Team” section. Are you saying that “Community Team” is a convoluted title that the LW admins have chosen to say “person who mods /c/lemmyworld”? Or do they have some other role that I can’t find outlined anywhere? (Which could be on my end, the site I linked doesn’t play well with mobile)
Ohh, dang my bad, I wasn’t sure what you were getting at. I only knew him as the guy that posted the thing that everyone hated but turned out to not be an admin.
I’m…not sure what that means lol. But our agreement with Ruud was that we could moderate our community however we saw fit, so I think it’s a moot point anyways. I have no reason to believe he would go back on his word.
And I’m sorry if I sounded frustrated. I am, honestly, but I didn’t need to direct that at you.
Yeah, I’m not sure what it means either, which means I’m not sure how many red flags the earlier thread I linked should be setting off. A random mod on LW being respectability politics about neopronouns is meh, someone higher up the chain than that and it’s brake pumping time IMO.
Also like, presumably everyone else on LW thought they were allowed to moderate their communities how they saw fit before that announcement, you know? My understanding is the LW admins shelved the policy for retooling, not retirement, so personally it’s not something I would want to chance. I don’t think anyone is purposefully lying to you guys, but I also don’t think they’d make an exception just for 196 to do whatever it wants with any future instance rule changes.
it’s not a good look for you to not know how lemmy.world is ran while simultaneously saying you can’t stay on lemmy.blahaj.zone and are moving to lemmy.world because of how it’s ran. it demonstrates a lack of understanding for the impact of the move, and the potential risks to the community of people you want to force the move on.
you didn’t do your research and it shows. lemmy.world, of the instances mentioned in your post, is possibly the worst instance to move to, especially considering who is drawn to 196 specifically of any lemmy shitpost community. you this whole debacle has put on display a shocking lack of understanding from a mod team of how community building, the lemmy ecosystem, and the fediverse at large work. we don’t need you to be experts on this to talk with us, but we need you to own your shortcomings, which has consistently not happened throughout this journey.
I’m not familiar with the dynamics between LW staff because I’m not a member of LW staff. I don’t know who Ada’s staff are, either. It’s not something I’ve ever had to know to adequately do my job. But I’m also not the owner of 196 and I’m not the one calling the shots. I’m just answering questions and concerns where I can. Moss is the one who knows most about these things.
However, from what Moss shared with us of her correspondence with the LW admins, I have no reason to believe that they would go back on their word when they said we’re allowed to moderate 196 as we always have.
Owning our shortcomings was the very reason we wrote this post. I thought we were pretty thorough, but if there’s something we missed that you’d like us to address, feel free to voice that here.
That mod has admin rights. Look at !carnivore@lemmy.world for evidence. They took over the community and locked it down, and removed the mods.
Regular users / mods can ask instance admins to do everything you just described on their behalf. And he’s not in the admin list.
Well spotted
I think you should leave this community to a new team and leave for lw ✌️
All do respect(which is none) this is the second time you have tried to forceably move this community to .world. We are collectively done with this bullshit and just leaving for !onehundredninetysix@lemmy.blahaj.zone . Thank you for the good year of 2024 with some amazing memes long live onehundredninetysix