It’s not looking good, and it doesn’t really make sense to fight a losing war.
How do the Ukrainian people go about even discussing surrender among themselves? I’d imagine any mention of it would be met with hostilities, perhaps even violence.
It’s a shame because that lack of reasonable discussion can directly influence how many people die that could’ve otherwise been saved.
The problem is we know Russia won’t stop. This is not the first time they attack their neibor. Ukraine and other countries have lost territory to Russia in the past. And we know the official Russian plan is to get the Soviet empire back, incuding the “sphere of influence” So it’s not just about Ukraine, it’s about a large part of Europe and about showing a bully they cannot continue with getting new land by force. They must be stopped. I just wish European countries intervened directly, that could save many lives and end the war for real. I don’t believe the Russian nuclear threats.
Russia is committing a war of genocide, surrender is death. Better to die fighting and take as many of the enemy with you and deprive them of the fruits of their conquest.
Not only are you promoting defeatist propaganda, but you’re also implying that patriotic Ukrainians have violent tendencies, something that’s quite rich when they’re the ones defending their homeland, not trampling stolen territory and kidnapping and murdering innocent civilians.
Promoting “peace in our time” that only leads to another war later, as was the case before World War II, is not an effective solution, and parallels the same fascist mentality encouraging Palestinians to leave Gaza “for their own safety”. Rather than promoting fascism, the solution is to participate in Starmer’s coalition of the willing, even without the participation of the US, and increase military aid to Ukraine and tariffs on Russia until it becomes too costly for Russia, both in terms of casualties and energy infrastructure losses.
Nothing less will promote a lasting peace.
Not only are you promoting defeatist propaganda
That’s ironic. The truth is not propaganda.
but you’re also implying that patriotic Ukrainians have violent tendencies
This is nothing unique to Ukrainians. It’s part of the mob mentality and instinctual responses that take hold when nations are at war, similar to how you’re lying about me spreading propaganda when I’m just telling the truth.
Promoting “peace in our time” that only leads to another war later
I guess if you have a crystal ball, then sure. What exactly do you think Russian control of Ukraine would look like? Do you think Russians would treat Ukrainians different from their own citizens?
We know they would treat Ukrainians terribly because we know what happened in the regions captured by them.
The truth is not propaganda
While I have my opinion and you have yours, Zelensky’s popular support increasing to an even greater majority than before, not decreasing, after his defense of Ukrainian sovereignty during his visit to the White House, is telling of Ukrainian support for the continued defense of their sovereignty from Russian invaders.
when I’m just telling the truth Again, you have your opinion and I have mine, the difference is that like propaganda outlets such as Fox News and Newsmax, you’re pulling far-right, anti-democratic claims out of a hat and giving no reliable proof to show for it.
What exactly do you think Russian control of Ukraine would look like?
Russia has already kidnapped thousands of Ukrainian children, covered up the torturing of murder of Ukrainian civilians, needlessly targeted Ukrainian civilian infrastructure, and claimed that the Ukrainian identity is a fabricated offshoot off being Russian. With such contempt for the linguistic, cultural, and self-deterministic rights of the Ukrainian people, anyone who for a second believes that Russia would allow for free and fair elections in Ukraine when it already targets political opponents, LGBTQ+ rights, and freedom of speech is either naive or intentionally deceitful.
Support for Zelensky isn’t the same as support for the war. Kyiv independent also doesn’t scream “impartial news source” to me. I could be wrong.
I agree that Russia will likely not allow fair elections or freedom of speech if they take over Ukraine, similar to how they’re not allowed in Russia now.
Do you think Russians would treat Ukrainians different from their own citizens?
Nope, and Russian citizens aren’t exactly treated well. That’s kind of partly why they don’t want Russians to be in control. Because they suck at every level.
That’s a good point to bring up and I agree with you.
It’s not looking good
It’s never looked good. Nothing’s changed.
I take it you’re American? Let me give you some unsoliticed advice: get over yourself. America isn’t as important as you think like to think you are, either to Ukraine or in general.
Oof. There’s the hostility.
It’s never looked good. Nothing’s changed.
What about when people were saying they were going to retake Crimea?
What about when people were saying they were going to retake Crimea?
I don’t understand your question.
Did things look good back then, or at least better than they do now?
back then
I don’t know when that was.
The war has always been a horror show. It’s always been David vs. Goliath. The Ukrainians have always been facing a long road of death and destruction on their way to victory.
That just means Ukraine needs more support, not less, and that more Americans should shift their resources from attacking LGBTQ+ people, immigrants, and minorities, and instead promote democracy in democratic countries that actively request such assistance, rather than in countries that don’t.
The EU, not the US, is now the leader of the free world, and every day the US becomes more similar to Russia than the EU is a day where millions of people will continue to needlessly suffer just to stuff the pockets of a handful of oligarchs.
Oh, so the sunk-cost fallacy doesn’t apply here?
You believe that Ukrainians can win if they just get enough material support, even without additional armies?
While I wholeheartedly think Ukraine is deserving of additional armies to defend its territorial integrity, and that claims of nuclear annihilation are used more as a Russian fear-mongering tool rather than being realistic in any manner, I certainly think Ukraine can win the war with enough arms, particularly if it increases its targeting of Russian energy infrastructure that funds Russia’s ability to conduct warfare in the first place.
It will indeed be harder without American support, but when the alternative for the Ukrainian people is ethnic cleansing, it’s no surprise that Zelenskyy remains popular three years into the war.
That’s fair. I’m coming at this from the position of I don’t believe Ukraine has what’s necessary to win the war without additional armies coming in to help.
Human lives are human lives. All the materials in the world can’t replace them. Losing their friends and family for what they thought would be a successful counteroffensive must take its toll going forward.
Each soldier lost is also another one who can’t defend his allies. It’s a compounding effect.
I’m actually afraid to even make this post, because I predict talking about Ukraine surrendering is enough to get me censored.
Kinda sad.
No, it’s just a dumb point to make.
“We should just surrender our lives and culture to a corrupt plutocracy that lives next door, right? Russia has shown in the past that they will live up to any peace agreement we sign, so we should just give up!”
There is no conversation where this idea flies when the people are actively fighting for their homes, friends, and families against a regime of idiocy like Putin.
Really? Discussing surrendering in a losing war is a dumb point to make?
in a losing war
What makes you think it’s a losing war?
When your surrender is as good as signing a death warrant for many of your friends and family that have been resisting for years now- yes.
Do you think Russians would mass-execute all Ukrainians if they won the war?
Every single Ukrainian who has so much as spit-shined a boot for the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be thrown in a labor camp indefinitely. The only reason I could see this not being the case is if the Russians cannot logistically handle that internment.
That’s a fair assessment to make.
Even if that were the case, wouldn’t it make more sense for Ukrainians to flee than die in a war that won’t be won?
No- it is their home. Just because some dumbass sets up camp on your front porch, is stealing your food, harassing your friends and family and beats the shit out of you any time you leave- doesn’t mean you’d leave your house. You’d fight/beat/kill the person claiming that the porch is rightfully theirs.
Yes- at least military and government members, without question or pause.
