About 49,500 people took their own lives last year in the U.S., the highest number ever, according to new government data posted Thursday.
I will probably get shit for this, since it’s a predominantly left leaning space, but until society starts acknowledging men’s issues it will keep getting worse.
https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics
In 2021, men died by suicide 3.90x more than women.
In 2021, firearms accounted for 54.64% of all suicide deaths.
This article is an excellent example of what I am talking about. It does not even mention the disparity of suicide rates between the sexes despite it obviously being a huge outlier. Instead, they talk about how guns are the problem, even though a gun is just a method.
Taking away the easy methods to commit suicide might reduce the rate, but it does nothing to address to core issues that make people want to kill themselves in the first place. Instead of 5000 dead people you will have 5000 people who wish they were dead. Mission accomplished.
but until society starts acknowledging men’s issues it will keep getting worse.
Good news. We’ve moved on from ‘man hating’ on the left. Intersectional Feminism actually espouses the fact that men are also harmed by the patriarchy and all the ridiculous demands that it puts on us, like not feeling feelings. You should look into it.
Expecting women to help men is like expecting men to give women the right to vote suddenly on their own initiative.
Why do you think men aren’t participating in feminism? We’re men helping men over here.
We’re men helping men over here.
No, you’re posting online.
Do you personally volunteer at a battered women’s shelter? Then you’re a male ally.
Do you personally volunteer at a suicide hotline? Then you’re a man helping other men (when those men call in).
Otherwise I suspect, admitting that I don’t know you, that you think that you’re on a team that’s the good guys, and that you’re the only game in town, and you’re threatened that I don’t expect feminism to be something that it can’t and shouldn’t be, no matter how much ideological gymnastics are performed to try and convince men that feminism is on their side.
If you (or your ideology) profess a belief that you’re capable of being on everyone’s side you are grandiose and delusional. Help the people you can help, especially offline, but don’t be an ideological evangelist online because that isn’t meaningful participation in our society.
Yes we should try and make a society by everyone, for everyone. Intersectional feminism teaches us that the way to do this is to listen to the people with the experience, not to listen to the ideology which you, @surewhynotlem, are centering.
What I do is speak with troubled anti-women men online to help them understand it’s not us vs them, it’s all of us vs the system.
Don’t gatekeep assistance by setting an arbitrary bar. It’s unhelpful.
And what I do is speak with anti-women men online without trying to convert them to an ideology which is based around helping women.
Don’t gatekeep assistance by setting an arbitrary bar. It’s unhelpful.
fuck off? like do you understand how incoherent you are here? no, how could you, your entire ideology is based on the incoherent contradiction of feminism-for-women and feminism-for-everyone.
This is weak.
Listen to yourself.
We’ve moved on from ‘man hating’ on the left.
How dare you deprive women of the right to hate men for the shitty things that men do?
Intersectional Feminism actually espouses the fact that men are also harmed by the patriarchy
It’s not like it’s not a “well actually” just because you omitted the “well.”
You absolutely can delegitimize the experience men have at the hands of feminism which is composed of humans who don’t always get it right. You can do it, with this “well actually,” but you’re performing an ideological dance for yourself to try and salvage a feminism that doesn’t need the help.
Feminism kicks ass and tells women to fuck up men when they deserve it, omni-feminism is weak sauce like this.
What a healthy outlook.
I think maybe less time on the internet and more time dealing with normies. I seriously doubt the women in my life would be happy to see me suffer even a bit let alone driven to end it because they read militant feminist manifestos.
On average people are average.
The struggle isn’t men vs women. It’s different mindsets. There are men, women, and other identities who view things in an us vs them bigoted way and then there are those who don’t look at what someone is, but how they treat others. The latter tend to be capable of getting along just fine together and use communication skills and emotional maturity to create solidarity with each other rather than pointing fingers at each other and creating absolutist rules and narratives. They show what is possible and are creating change and progress through being the solution of unity and solidarity by simply being cool with each other and not assuming anything about each other based on whatever identities they have.
you tell yourself a pretty story to make you feel better
Free mental healthcare is a pretty leftist stance I think? Solving social issues and getting people the resources and care they need seems like a good way to solve the suicide issue and that’s 100% what the left is all about.
Free mental healthcare is a pretty leftist stance I think?
Yes, pro universal healthcare and also pro 2A, liberals not so much.
Hmmm, idk, as a liberal I’m a fan of a well regulated militia.
Not so much a fan of my serial abuser father and his gun collection. His father killed himself a few years ago, that greatly increases his chances of suicide, and his type is likely to go out “in a blaze of glory”.
I’m all for universal health care, but his court required therapy was “just government indoctrination”, you can’t help everyone, but you can regulate their ability to hurt others.
But I guess that makes me anti 2a, either with you or against you right?
Free mental healthcare is a great idea, but it will only partially solve the problem. Men tend to use mental healthcare way less than women. Where I live (where it’s basically free) there are some efforts to get men into programs, like support groups specifically for men, but these don’t change the situation much. There needs to be a cultural change as well, aside from societal improvements to better everybody’s lives.
Is there evidence that mental healthcare lowers the chances of suicide?
I will probably get shit for this, since it’s a predominantly left leaning space, but until society starts acknowledging men’s issues it will keep getting worse.
???
What left leaning circles have you been in? I think we all know men have issues too?
In my left leaning circles it’s pretty well understood that feminism is about helping women. And that’s a good thing. Trying to make feminism an ideology which serves all genders is problematic because it implies an omniscient perspective counter to proper intersectionality. Men experience oppression but only men can represent their oppression in discourse.
Women can’t and shouldn’t feel like they can have an opinion on men’s issues. “Stay in your lane” comes to mind.
I think you can help people and stand up for people being hurt regardless of what you got in your pants. Yes, education and personal experience may allow you to do a better job at it clearly a medical professsional can solve problems that I cant for example, but most of the time I think basic empathy can get you pretty far.
A homeless woman this week asked me for water, I gave her a bottle of water. I don’t think I need to be a women or ten courses of feminism to know that humans need water to survive.
I can’t think of a single left leaning space that is not concerned or empathetic about the mental health of men. I can think of several right leaning spaces that dismiss men’s mental health struggles with “stop being a snowflake and man up.”
It’s worth noting that also according to that article women attempt suicide 1.3x as often as men – but men are more likely to use guns so they end up dying more. It seems to me guns are a core part of the issue
So let’s pretend we get rid of guns; now we have thousands of people that still wish they were dead. Some will find other ways to die.
That’s the point the other poster was making. We gotta treat the core problems, not just the symptoms.
Except the core poster says men have it worse when objectively women are attempting suicide more often.
The issue isn’t that people are committing suicide with firearms, or even that they’re committing suicide. The issue is that people are miserable and hate their lives.
Technology has us more isolated from each other and people have less friends now than they did 20 years ago.
I think the majority of ppl want that stuff better for everyone, toxic masculinity hurts women and men. there’s definitely some very vocal sexists on both sides though
It also does not even mention the disparity of suicide stats between different ethnic groups.
US demographics use “race” instead of ethnicity but the stats still point to a massive disparity with American Indian or Alaska Natives having suicide rates in the 20s (compared to overall rates of around 14 -14.9 per 100,000). Black and Hispanic people also have higher suicide rates.
The only reason a “left leaning” space would argue with you over that is when you start blaming women or feminism for mens issues.
As a man who is suicidal pretty much constantly, I know my issues are my own. I’ve failed, not society, but I also know that 5000 people who wish they were dead aren’t dead yet and so there’s still a chance things can change. I’d say gun control can be part of the solution, but I do also agree that we should be discussing what makes people suicidal and especially seeing why one segment of a population feels it more than others.
For me personally, I just feel like a complete failure in all aspects of life and can’t find any direction that I care to pursue to get me “on track.” I’m also such a mixed bag of 1000 different “types” that I have something for everyone to dislike as far as finding a partner. I would never blame women for wanting what they want, so while I enjoy my interests and stand firm in not wanted to live with a dog, I just have to accept that I’m not anyone’s cup of tea.
So tldr on that bit, I’m the problem, not society.
You exist, and you are who you are, and that is ok. You may believe that you have failed, and feel guilty or ashamed of that, and that’s ok too. You sound lonely, rejected, and really hurt by your experiences, “something for everyone to dislike”. These feelings suck, but internalizing them and telling yourself that you are a problem can be really unhelpful. You are worthy of acceptance, with what flaws you see in yourself. This isn’t really a great forum for personal, intimate discussion, but I do hope you can talk about your experiences with someone you trust.
Hey man, you don’t have to hold the world up by itself. Not everything is your responsibility. In fact a lot of what people are saying here that are causing these spikes are a result of isolation and society failing our people. All out individualism isn’t that great for people. We need interdependence because we can’t do this all alone. We need that sense of community that has all but been demolished. It’s good that you aren’t blaming others for your problems, but also, society could be more helpful/beneficial to you instead of kicking you to the curb instead of making everything seem hopeless. It could provide you the tools to climb out instead of leaving you in the well.
All this to say, is that please don’t be ashamed to ask for help. None of us would’ve gotten this far without help from others.deleted by creator
One aspect you might have to separate is the gun control advocates who just want to cite another reason for X or Y policies. Those people aren’t necessarily advocating for mental health.
As an example take waiting periods. They might do something for first time buyers but the policy doesn’t really make sense for the people who already have a safe full of guns to pick from. I don’t hear those people talk about programs like “hold my guns” either.
Well, since gun control in this country is basically verboten, one of the simplest ways to reduce suicide is a non-starter.
I know you mean well but you’re like the person who makes suicidal tendencies more powerful because you want to shut all the windows in a burning building because you personally find falling bodies less aesthetically pleasing than burning ones.
As someone who thinks that people should have the right to end their life, I still think guns might be an issue because they can make it very quick and allow no time to think it through. Even some of the other accessible methods take some preparation, and each step is a chance to think again.
I understood this perspective already. You’d rather process suicide into a pipeline in which “reasonable” suicide is more common than deal with the factors driving people to suicide.
Your need to control the “problem” is part of the overbearing control driving people to suicide. It’s my opinion that you’d be better off accepting the choice and not trying to second-guess men who shoot themselves, even if they’re drunk, impulsive, or any manner of “irrational” about it. (Rationality is a myth designed to sell more socially approved behaviors.)
No one talks about why women go through with suicide less, either. One of the reasons can very likely be that more women are the caregiver of their parents or children since the bigger number of men who commit suicide stems from the amount of men who are lonely but who also do not have to care for other people.
until society starts acknowledging men’s issues
I wonder what gives you the impression that society doesn’t acknowledge men’s issues?
I agree with you in the sense much left leaning conversation tends to tribalize to specific groups. Im super left leaning but I want things that benefit everyone. universal healthcare, universal education, publicization of anything that is to essential or without robust enough competition to be run by the market, citizens income. Gun control as a local issue (you can’t bring guns into my house, you can’t bring guns into my business, you can’t bring guns into our town, you can’t bring guns into our state) and federal (limitations on capability especially rate of fire, clip size, electronic assist). Legalization of suicide along with all other bodily autonomy. I find both sides like to look at things as this group or that group but I want general things myself.
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I find it interesting how much western countries have individualised the causes of sadness.
It’s not that strange that people are often sick in a sick society. If you’re depressed, it’s likely that there are things that are causing or exacerbating that depression.
Give people homes, job security, less stressful jobs, and offer them a healthy work-life balance? Far easier to deal with and possibly even heal from trauma or serious health issues.
But that costs money. Selling people pills and self-help books? That makes money.
But that costs money.
It’s worth noting that a lot of solutions actually save money.
For example, universal healthcare is a big issue in the US. Around 2/3 of all bankruptcies are from medical debt. People ration lifesaving medication like insulin because of how prohibitively expensive it is. GoFundMe is of the largest healthcare providers in the country, and over 1/3 of all campaigns are for medical expenses.
They’ve created a system where it’s prohibitively expensive to seek necessary medical care, and is built on the foundational acceptance that people need to die and suffer for it to function as intended.
Yet a universal healthcare system is projected to cost the US an estimated ~13% less than they are paying.
Save taxpayers money, not the super rich. The system is working as intended for the parasites at the top.
Exactly its not about how much taxpayer money is being spent, it’s about who it goes to.
Sort of. If they all worked together they would have been better off, even for their own class. Working together and further monopolizing businesses for American industries would have made them much richer (probably at the expense or other economies, but I guess we’re just talking about “the west” so thats slightly irrelevant). Every other American would be better off too, but that might mean Elon Musk is worth 100 B instead of 180B and Larry Ellison is only worth 70B. But there would be a lot more Billionaires and a heck of a lot more millionaires. But that isn’t how game theory works I guess, and that would be boring for them… they have no national allegiances anyway.
Around 2/3 of all bankruptcies are from medical debt
A bit misleading, though I get your point. 2/3 of people who file for bankruptcy have medical debt, not that the medical debt was the cause of the bankruptcy. Any dollar amount of medical debt factors into this statistic, so if I have $800 in medical debt with reasonable payments and I drown under a mortgage I can no longer afford and 20k in credit card debt, did the medical debt cause the bankruptcy? Of course not. It’s counted anyways.
A bit misleading, though I get your point. 2/3 of people who file for bankruptcy have medical debt, not that the medical debt was the cause of the bankruptcy.
Your assessment of this is incorrect.
The study I was referencing reports on people who specify that medical-related financial stress contributed directly to their bankruptcy. This was broken down by medical expenses and medical issues leading to loss of income - with medical expenses being the higher percentage at ~60%, and the combined percentage sitting between 65-70% (with overlap in responses).
But that costs money. Selling people pills and self-help books? That makes money.
I am sorry but this is a ridiculous implication.
The vast majority of prescribed antidepressants (I’m assuming this is what you mean by pills) are old drugs with long expired patents, which makes them quite cheap. The profit margins have to be pretty low due to competition from generic formulation manufacturers. This is an area that actually could use more investment into R&D.
Self-help books are usually written by individual authors or small collaborations. It’s profitable but not massive industry. The people profiting from self-help books are not anywhere near to being able to influence people getting homes, job security and work-life balance in either direction.
Many cultures have issues with depression or suicide. Including ones with a focus on collectivism.
Work-life balance could be a part of the issue. That can be an issue for individualism or collectism. Although I feel like with individualism it’s easier to set your own standard.
The affordability of life is a problem as well but money being a thing won’t go away anytime soon.
I believe it. This place sucks. Criminals and assholes everywhere, at least in my life. People claw at you and fuck you over until your suicidal. I have no respect for America at all anymore. It feels like having to live with seeing your rapist everyday.
That and nobody cares. I sent out goodbye texts to a lot of people in my life. Literally no one cares. I’ve had people try to push me to suicide, stalk me, and give me death threats since 2020. Cops don’t care.
You’re right. But I care, if even for this breif moment. Take care, when you can. I hear you. ❤️
Ok first of all I get you, as someone from Europe, the greatest strengths of America often sound like the biggest weaknesses to me.
And then ofc if you wanna talk about it I’m here and I will listen :) hope you’re doing good.
American culture was deeply scarred by the cold war in ways that I don’t think many people realize. Over the last 80 years, the pursuit of self-interest has come to dominate every aspect of life and in turn degrades any attempt at community or helping one another. It’s quite sad actually. The America that gave my grandparents the opportunity to drag themselves out of poverty has turned around and eaten itself alive.
Yep. Extreme egoism is great if you’re a winner, but horrible if you’re not. And most people are not winning.
A nation that’s not good to the people who aren’t winning is not a good nation
I would argue it’s not even good even if you are winning.
Even if you strike gold and get rich, what use is all of it if you’re alone?
Well, you don’t have to be alone and you don’t have to be super rich to be a winner.
Even a western middle class person is a winner. Not winning as much as Musk or Zuckerberg, but still winning.
Don’t catch you slippin’ now
Literally can’t talk about because I get death threats because I made some bad people mad. And I know what they are capable of.
All my social media is watched by them.
Edit: I always get down votes for my real life experience posts. The world is fucked, you just shut out anything that goes against the privilege you were born into. Life is death war and chaos. You can either live for humanity or continue making rich criminals richer while you deny reality.
Excessive doomerism isn’t popular among those that don’t share your experiences
What the fuck? How privileged are you? Your so fucking caught up in whack dumbass pop “doomerism” that you think gang shit doesn’t go on… Your pathetic. Wake the fuck up and walk through a ghetto you pathetic piece of shit. I’ve almost been murdered literally… have you…? Have you? You piece of privileged piece of shit? I’ve had people shoot guns outside my house and threaten to kill my family and your pathetic ass wants to call it doomerism? Wake the fuck up and get smacked out of your precious privileged life.
You never want to know what it’s like. Every day I think about killing myself because of the reality I’ve seen. And you want to call it doomerism… Jesus Christ America’s dead as fuck.
Imagine someone threatening to kill your mom or dad or sister or brother… Ive fucking lived that. America’s fucked. And all because I came in contact with the wrong person randomly. I literally went to the police and they don’t care. I literally got laughed at. America is fucked to the core. You people are so pure and desensitized from holywood you think the reality of humanity is fake. It’s disgusting and pathetic. But let me guess you change your whack ass Facebook profile to support the latest cause… Piece of shit.
Don’t think the underprivileged dont see you fake people pushing pop politics, you are seen, and you won’t be on the same team if a civil war comes along.
You misunderstand me. You were complaining about downvotes from people who don’t share your experiences. You were also claiming that absolutely everything is terrible, here.
Yes, you’ve had bad experiences. I don’t doubt that. But the downvotes come from those that don’t share your experiences and completely disagree that “everything is terrible.” You’re labelling absolutely everything bad based on your own personal experiences and, while I get it, is not really how things work
Everything people need to live is getting more expensive, wages are stagnant if not falling with respect to inflation, and we are forced to work longer hours and have little hope for retirement. We are bombarded by stories of violence, drugs, and theft. Oh, and climate change is starting to destroy the livability of planet earth. There is zero surprise that people don’t want to keep living under these conditions.
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I’m sorry maybe I’m a little triggered because this hits close to home, but seriously how the fuck can people claim “oh suicide is going up because guns”
Are they fucking blind to how things are going in the world? I’m so fucking livid right now. “Suicide is because guns” fuck off
Guns don’t cause suicide, but they make it much easier to successfully complete suicide
Handguns especially
But I doubt an increase in suicides this year from last year has anything to do with gun ownership rates
I made a serious attempt once. I am anti-gun and didn’t have access to one. I tried a different way. If someone is serious, they will find a way. (I’m doing much better, thanks)
Suicide number decreased when we switched the type of gas ovens used. Use to be that you could stuff up your windows and doors, turn on the oven, and slowly drift to sleep into death. Now you will just be slightly warmer. Of course, that is a supply side solution. And just like the republican war on drugs, supply side solutions never get rid of the underlying problem.
Friendly reminder that statistics like this that aren’t adjusted per various should be taken with a grain of salt until the per capita* figures are available from the CDC.
Just like murder rates etc: if you take only the highest number of something and don’t adjust by population it’s unclear if it’s actually worse than it has ever been or not. It’s not even clear if it is worse than last year without per capita figures.
Not trying to minimize the tragedy of suicide but a lot of people read meaning into figures like this without context.
Good luck, this is anti-US propaganda and they’ll downvote you if you address it reasonably.
I’m from the US and just upvoted that. Please don’t stereotype. I know there’s a lot of idiots here, but we’re not all stupid.
I agree with it too and I’m not accusing Americans of being idiots at all, if that’s what you’re saying? I’m saying that lemmy is full of anti-American propaganda.
BS. Lemmy is extremely US-centric. The world is 8 billion, the US is not even 1:20 of that. Go take a look at Lemmy’s “All” feed, it’s more like 20:1 for the US.
Well it’s a bad comment, because I’m from the US and didn’t downvote. It’s also not propaganda.
Hmm… 31 upvotes and 2 downvotes so far…
America is a fucked up shithole.
My best friend was one of them.
I was going to say my nephew too, but that was this year
It simultaneously feels like years ago and days ago
And this year is ten years since my son took his life.
I’m so sorry. I bet you still feel it every day. I can’t even imagine.
The short answer is yes I do. The long answer is that it is far more complicated.
if you want can we hear the long answer
Not ignoring this, just have not been able to put it into words (text).
oh alright thats fine take your time :). if i dont respond it’s not cause im ignoring you btw im just considerinf giving up all tech for a year for mental health soon
Sorry mate.
I know how you feel. It gets better.
This will be a hot take for some but people opt out of a life that’s pointless, miserable, painful, and hopeless. Preventing people from access to methods of opting out is but a palliative measure.
Sure, people can be dissuaded from making an attempt by making it difficult, but isn’t it far better to address why people want to opt out in the first place? And of course, it’s best to do both: prevent people from making attempts, and address any issues they might be having in their lives. Even better, provide “end-of-life” care for those who really have had it enough for whatever reason.
Why lock people into a miserable existence anyways? Someone might have been prevented from opting out, but if conditions don’t change (and no, it doesn’t always “get better”), you’ve got a person will just resent even being kept alive. What good does that do?
Now, for the trash take: I suspect suicide is a problem because suits can’t make the line go up if people are killing themselves. The suits need people to consume and not kill themselves.
I was almost one of them about a year ago. I was horribly depressed and constantly thought about ending it. It was to the point where I was even planning out the letters I would write and how exactly I would do it. Thankfully I never committed. I cut off pretty much everyone from my hometown and went to a different highschool where I found a caring friend group.
I’m glad you are still with us, please stay.
I intend to
rising cost of living wages not rising with them scam of a healthcare system you will own nothing unless you slave away for the rest of your days
Color me surprised
People need hope that they can have a future and that it’s one worth living. Without that, despair is a natural outcome. If our societies cared half as much about ordinary people as we do corporations and the military, there would be a lot less despair.
There’s growth, thus everything is fine! /s
The article only benchmarks the total number to percentage of Americans once then just talks about the total number increasing over time. It would be much more helpful to just see this as a relative percentage to total population as I’d expect that number to rise regardless as population continues to grow. Not disputing the data, but think that would be a better way to analyze it.
Yeah the 2022 figures in that article are meaningless.
According to a more well-written article: the 2022 suicide mortality rate was 14.9 per 100,000.
AKA 0.149% so that really is a jump.
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im not going to try to prolong your suffering but if you can, please try to do it in a hospital so your organs can be given to someone else. record a will so yiur ex wife gets nothing. check my post history, two of the most recent concern this.
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body is bound to have something viable. have you looked at my posts
What could possibly be more important than you? What could supercede your will to life?
Surely the only thing that existentially matters to you, is you. Right?
I do believe it’s your choice. But I also believe that the choice is wrong. There are countless numbers of other paths to try that could instill an essence in you.
Try moving to a city. Try moving to another country. Try learning an instrument. Try a new language. Try finding a new partner. Try a new sport. Try finding new friends. Try hiking. Try a different job, or no job. Try a new book. I could go on.
Try anything and everything that could prevent you from coming to a permanent end.
Can I have your stuff? I promise not to desecrate your skeleton, even on halloween.
