Kenn Dahl says he has always been a careful driver. The owner of a software company near Seattle, he drives a leased Chevrolet Bolt. He’s never been responsible for an accident.
So Mr. Dahl, 65, was surprised in 2022 when the cost of his car insurance jumped by 21 percent. Quotes from other insurance companies were also high. One insurance agent told him his LexisNexis report was a factor.
LexisNexis is a New York-based global data broker with a “Risk Solutions” division that caters to the auto insurance industry and has traditionally kept tabs on car accidents and tickets. Upon Mr. Dahl’s request, LexisNexis sent him a 258-page “consumer disclosure report,” which it must provide per the Fair Credit Reporting Act.
What it contained stunned him: more than 130 pages detailing each time he or his wife had driven the Bolt over the previous six months. It included the dates of 640 trips, their start and end times, the distance driven and an accounting of any speeding, hard braking or sharp accelerations. The only thing it didn’t have is where they had driven the car.
On a Thursday morning in June for example, the car had been driven 7.33 miles in 18 minutes; there had been two rapid accelerations and two incidents of hard braking.
Louis Rossman has more than one video on the topic of newer cars that are basically always connected to the internet and all of the data harvesting they do. Here’s one
Is there any way you can sever that connection, or does it brick the car? I don’t want my car connected to anything. Ever.
The issue is the cellular modem built into most cars nowadays. It can vary in difficulty to disable or remove, with the added bonus of potentially taking other services that are attached to it such as Bluetooth. It fucking sucks. I don’t know more details than that.
On some vehicles, you can apparently disable it.
Here’s what one guy found works on a 2023 Corolla, where it’s getting increasingly-more-of-a-pain-in-the-ass than in earlier models:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/epzioGDOdTeo/
Apparently, it used to be possible to just pull a fuse out of the fuse panel in prior years.
I’d also add that I don’t know for sure what the impact is. I’d imagine that it voids your warranty. I don’t know if the car manufacturer relies on this communication mechanism to push out firmware updates for the car, but if so, I suppose that one might not get firmware updates.
Apparently some older Hyundais disable themselves, because they can’t speak newer cell phone protocols, and those older cell towers are going offline, which causes the connectivity to be severed.
https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/resources/blue-link/2g-3g-wireless-service-update
“Sharing” is a funny way to word a headline. They are selling it, for a profit, because it’s legal. It’s immoral and shady as hell, but “prevent it or expect it” applies here.
Yeah should say “currently legalized sales of personal data” to emphasize that this sort of thing is illegal in many other regions.
We don’t have to worry about the government tracking us everywhere we go. These corporations will do it for them and then sell the data for a proft.
Not will, do: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government-buying-your-data-00143742
This is how you radicalize a populace. Fuckin stupid move.
That’s right. The thing that anti-government people seem to forget is that, left unchecked, corporations are much worse than oppressive governments. Democratic Nations need to be vigilant of both.
The government buys your data, too. And not just your government.
For any legal case, government or your spouse’s divorce attorney, it’s a low bar to soupeana “business records” from these companies.
The US needs stronger data protection and privacy laws. Unfortunately, the corporations buy enough politicians to prevent it.
Unfortunately one of their customers is the government, so we still have to worry about that too.
What a great use of my tax dollars.
Is there a way to disable this? Does it report though android auto? Is there a way to prevent those packets sending?
Varies widely. In Toyota’s you call via the SOS button, have your VIN and they can do it. There are also other direct ways like pulling the Mayday fuse to disconnect the “Data Connection Module” (DCM) but that takes the microphone with it.
Some older vehicles that have 3G radios might not have been disconnected explicitly but are as good as dead because 3G as they knew it is gone.
It does not report via Android Auto since these vehicles have their own cellular radios, but not to say Google has its own metrics.
Your best bet is looking for a car/make-specific forum or subreddit and see if anyone’s asked the questions before while ignoring the “nothing to hide, you have a phone lol” clowns.
I was going through a reddit post that asked a question how to remove network on a Tesla model 3 and they were all like “I’ve got nothing to hide” “you’re cheating on your wife” etc. However, I did find some schematics and there are guides on youtube.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/tesla-model-3-sim-replacement-guide-pdf.563266/
The car has a cellular connection and whoever manufacturers the car probably pays for it.
How to disable? Probably not without breaking something else. You could at best block the Connection with Lead foil but you’d have to find where it was. You might lose all Connection though - Bluetooth, FM/AM
But you don’t have to worry if you got nothing to hide… /s
I’ve seen people drive. They definitely would want to hide their driving habits from insurance companies
Your driving record should speak for itself. I don’t need nor want insurance companies tracking people’s private lives.
I think this should be legally prohibited. Also is it possible to physically disconnected the network modules so they can’t send anything?
If it doesn’t already, that’s probably going to put you in the high-risk group with other car modders.
How dare you demand privacy!
It will be cat and mouse, but I would imagine for the time being, disconnecting the cell antenna on the board would stop it. Who knows what kind of, if any bullshit extra errors and codes that will keep popped up but I’m guessing if it became a popular thing, they would start making cars that will create bullshit errors and codes. I wouldn’t do anything permanent until the warranty period is over.
Simple answer that should always work: surround the chip/antenna with a faraday cage. The hardest part is finding the chip, not in disabling it.
Why not to just break the antenna (or whatever it has) in half? It’s much simpler and shouldn’t cause damage to the chip itself
The antennae only likely won’t reduce range enough. Check for an opt-out procedure prior to purchase since that’s easiest, then look for what fuse powers the connection (also easy), but worse case, lay eyes on the module itself and evaluate.
Yea I guess it’s a better choice
Somebody could go to jail for this. You.
The DMCA makes it a felony to circumvent protections in services. If they wanted to push this and depending on the system disabling or using some hack to bypass could be illegal.
I don’t think that anyone would actually bring the case against an individual, but a company selling any sort of device or instructions to make it easier for people could be targeted.
If they make disabling spyware illegal, I’ll do it anyways because human rights. If they decide to charge me for it, I’ll just consider it a violation of my freedoms
I’m sure it’s possible, but I’m sure they’ve made it as painful as it can be.
Most likely the module, if it is a separate module and not part of the SoC of the infotainment system or whatever, works over CAN bus and the car will throw errors when it doesn’t detect its presence, or doesn’t detect the SIM card. Might even refuse to start if that module is missing. Might be possible to remove the antenna so the car thinks it’s just outside of the service area, but if it’s built into the PCB and the PCB is cast into resin/silicone for waterproofing, even this might be extremely difficult. Probably the module is also serialized* so replacing it with a “dummy” module or a module from a junkyard won’t spoof the system, either.
*Manufacturers have been serializing even airbags for years, making replacing a faulty one with one from a junkyard impossible.
You’re approaching it in the wrong way. You don’t need to stop the Data Collection just the phone home. Find the antenna and Faraday Cage it.
Yeah, some aluminum foil on the inside of those shark fin antennas will probably stop all communication. Just have to use your phone for radio & navigation, which isn’t a big deal on CarPlay or whatever the androids use.
If you use foil, it’d be best to connect it to ground. The metal shell of a car is usually connected to the ground terminal of the battery.
Maybe we can trick it forever that it is far away from a cell tower. That way the car has to start without connection.
Who knows, maybe they force you to use their app and after driving and connecting to the internet, that sends data back to the manufacturer.
I’m sure it varies widely. In Toyota’s you can call in to disconnect (I did it while waiting for a tire pressure machine) but to do it physically you pull a single fuse and the trade off is losing the microphone.
Others have pulled the dash and disconnected antennae but it just reduces the range of the box since it’s a cellular radio like a phone.
Do you have any resources that I can use to learn more about about removing telemetry from a vehicle? Is there a good forum that could help me potentially do this to my car?
There’s no easy one-stop solution since it can vary widely.
I would look at subreddits (yuck, reddit!), or dedicated forums for your model if they exist, you’d probably be surprised what’s out there. (Example, there’s Piloteers (Honda Pilot), Kia-Forums (Kia), 4Runners and Toyota-4Runner, etc. But information may be scattered.
First objective is figuring out if it’s even on your vehicle or applicable. Older 3G radios are done since the networks that connected to them are gone now. My '16 Kia had no cellular radio. Maybe you have an SOS button or they advertise a phone app to control your vehicle remotely?
Edit: And if you can’t find specific model/year information for your vehicle, you can look for information for related vehicles and see if it’s relevant. Ex: Honda Passport, Pilot, Ridgeline sharing a lot of engineering.
Since Nissan and Kia both explicitly state they reserve the right to collect and sell data about your sex life, disabling the microphone is probably a good idea.
in this case that’s Toyota specific and it means likely loss of phone calls on the go (but nothing else) even though the data can’t leave your vehicle anymore. It all depends on how they wire up the system. Maybe it’s easier, maybe it’s tied to something random.
I can’t wait to see tuturials. I don’t know much about cars and would love to see people disable these, or perhaps do something malicious. Not that I have a new enough car yet, but I know one day it’s going to be unavoidable.
As long as you know where they are, a simple faraday cage should work perfectly. Basically, surround the module with an electrically conductive material to catch radio waves.
I was thinking something like free data plan till they disable the transmitter or at least an unplug. Never bought a new car, do you agree to terms and conditions or sign a contract specifically mentioning/consenting to the tracking?
In Toyota’s there’s a red sticker on the dash talking about it and how to opt-out. (or at least I’ve seen it in a rental and a new car - but it might also be yanked by dealer’s PDI)
If you’re using android auto or something like that this information is going to be transmitted on the same connection used for navigation and internet so you better learn the map of the city again if you want to scape the Spyware.
So what’s the results? Which generation is better at driving? Which age group is more conservative with duel usage? Hmm?
They’re all bad. 20-50% rate increases across the board!
Last time I drove a rental car I was constantly aware that it was probably tracking everything I did, sending that data back to its owners, who would then sell it on to data brokers and insurance companies and whoever else wanted it.
It was sort of tolerable on a temporary basis, until I got to driving along a road where the speed limit had recently changed. The car helpfully displayed what it thought the speed limit was, and suddenly I had to choose between driving safely and driving according to what the computers presumably wanted to see.
Drivers of the world, do not let your cars have Internet access. No good can come of it.
Yes, the only access to the Internet a car should have is through my phone in an opt-in basis. That way I can stream music, map directions, etc through my phone that I’ve already made somewhat secure.
That’s not always a choice, without hurdles. I have a truck with it, but I would have no idea how to disable it short of cutting the antenna wire for it.
Yes, that is exactly what you should do. Remove the antenna.
They will store it and upload the data when you go in for service
That probably voids the entire warranty or something ridiculous like that.
Your anecdote isn’t meaningful. That’s simply an outdated map software.
It serves as a convenient representative example of the ways in which such systems can go wrong.
I mean, this is the world of software and computer systems. The map is always outdated, the model is always fictional, and the metric is always measuring the wrong thing. Even aside from the obvious privacy problems this kind of big data approach has its limits which are too easily ignored by insurance companies eager to take the average across thousands of mistakes hoping to get something profitable. As is becoming increasingly more obvious to the general public as computer algorithms designed in secret rule more of our lives, quite often the best that can be managed is a system that works adequately well for the purposes of its designers even while it takes decisions that are utterly stupid at the level of the individual people subjected to it.
Which then reports back to LexisNexis that you are speeding through an area, which is then reported to insurance companies who in turn flag you as a dangerous driver, raising your premiums.
That assumes the outdated map software manages to somehow make an accurate report. Most likely, if it makes one, it’ll be “Going X over a Y MPH area” even though Y is wrong, or it’ll be just “speeding by X MPH for Y seconds/minutes”. Either way, nobody is likely to verify and correct the data, so you could be punished for perfectly safe and legal driving.
You can’t be punished for it because that “evidence” was not correctly collected.
Also in your specific example and depending on the country, for them to report you on that would be a false accusation which means they’re the ones that could get into trouble if you go after them (basically any costs you incurred because of it would be on them).
(IANAL, so take this with a pinch)
It’s probably too much trouble for them to actually report it to the police (if they do it automatically, they run the risk I mention and they’re not going to spend the money manually reviewing it) - there is risk and cost involved with nothing in it for them.
That said, they could still pass it on to some entities other than the police (such as insurers) and good luck for you to prove it and show the damage it caused you. In the EU you could request them all the data they had on you which would possibly be enough to catch them, but outside it, it really depends.
They aren’t reporting you to the police. They are selling that data to insurance companies who then use that information to jack up your premiums. So guess what. You are now being financially punished for safe driving while someone in a 20 year old shit box that miraculously avoids accidents and apeeding tickets pays a lower premium.
The only solution is to forbid companies from collecting this data in the first place. It’s never going to be used to make something cheaper for you, it’s only ever going to be used to sell you something or to charge you more.
I think we’re basically seeing the same picture and in agreement on how things should be (which is why I pointed I’m happy to be in the EU, were that stuff IS forbiden unless people explicitly opt-in).
No opt-ins because companies will do whatever they can to force you into opting in for it. Same way that fast food companies are harvesting data from people by jacking up prices and making “discounts” available on their apps. Corporations have all the leverage again consumers.
Maybe not legally punished, but this very article we’re discussing is about how insurance companies are, in fact, punishing you financially for it. As for the false accusation, sure, but how likely is anyone to even figure it out? You’re not being dragged into court, and people don’t even know this is happening yet. It’s only illegal if you get caught. I don’t expect them to report it to anyone. I just expect data collectors to sell data and other businesses to buy it for the express purposes of financially screwing you. You may stay out of court, but that extra 21% charge is gonna cost you a couple hundred per year at least.
Yeah, hence the last paragraph of my comment.
I can see how it can indirectly used in ways that harm somebody, just wanted to point out it’s unlikelly to be reporting drivers to the police if only because there’s no money and some risk for them in doing it.
Mind you, if the police does some kind of agreement with them were they’re paid for it and are immune to liability for misreporting, I can see rental companies doing it.
I’m very happy that I live in Europe, not the US.
The anecdote doesn’t necessarily prove anything but it is conceivable that stretch of road is mismarked in multiple systems.
Classic JDM shit boxes till I die. Used to be a joke, but since cars have become what are essentially IoT devices, it’s become real. 🥲
Comprehensive privacy law time? Nahh just ban the Chinese EVs and pretend this doesn’t happen. Same thing as tiktok. You’ll never be protected as long as they can point to the Chinese boogyman.
Yeah, I feel like that’s why the EU has such strong privacy regulations. Tech giants in our market are mostly either state-tolerated&-utilized monopolies from the US or state-owned monopolies from China.
There’s also the potential that raising concerns of Chinese spyware raises more concern of the rest of it. They should continue raising those concerns about them all. And ban all the spyware.
We didn’t see that one coming huh
My auto insurance rose 27% this year. My cars sit in a locked garage 20ft away from me practically all week long as I work from home. I was shocked to find my rates rose so high as I barely even drive at all anymore. Their solution was for me to get their data collection puck. What a fucking racket!
Apparently a part of that is that EVs are more expensive to insurance companies, so they are spreading that cost around.
My insurance jumped by about 20% as well, after discounts from shopping around.
It cant just be EVs, but when i was searching this was the main reported factor.Or, all the insurance companies just decided to massively bump rates
My completely uninformed guess is:
- we all forgot how to drive like normal people during/after lockdowns and,
- cars continue to get bigger and heavier, so accidents are more likely to result in total loss
The reasoning they gave me is exactly that. People driving like crazy post pandemic, and the fact that cars have become exponentially expensive.
Parts are plastic and cheaply made so more shit breaks when you get in an accident.
My understanding is that they all got together and decided to raise rates across the board.
Colluding?
Of course not, that would be illegal and immoral!
/s just in case
I bet you all the insurance companies are using a service that provides pricing via algorithms. In their opinion it’s not collusion, just math.
pricing via algorithms
This is essentially what all insurance is. Actuary tables, risk analysis, so forth. All math with the single purpose to ensure that over the whole risk pool, the House wins.
Used Vehicles became more valuable over the past few years as new vehicle production was issued halted in early 2020 and supply chain issues plagued manufacturers for a few years after that. Used car prices are just now starting to come down. I hardly ever saw cars for sale by owner that didn’t have over 200k miles on them and weren’t models plagued with major issues. People were still asking $5k for absolute junk. My advice over the past few years has been to buy a new car as it’s a much better value over any used car at the moment.
Moving from 64 to 65 also moves you from a different age bracket, I would guess that this is the main reason he saw a general rise on his insurance cost from all the other insurance companies.
True, but the insurance agent told him the spyware report was a factor.
Age buckets are so archaic
I disagree, they’re effective and a reasonably privacy-friendly way of predicting risk. Younger people are generally more aggressive drivers than older people, and older people generally have worse reactions than younger people. It’s one of the strongest indicators for driving behavior before an infraction is recorded.
I don’t like it either, but it’s better imo than using one of those driving meters.
So I’m not against using age, but binning it coarsely is the issue when it can be handled much more granularly.
64-65 is probably a negligible amount of risk increase, but 64-69 is going to be much bigger. Looking at younger ages the effect is more extreme where they’re probably charging late 20’s drivers more because they’re pooled with low 20’s.
Anyway, on average it probably works out the same, but in practice I never bin data where I can avoid it, since you get better information looking at it as a continuous range.
I think they totally have the computer power to use an hyper parametric model with each age as own variable. A problem this could had, is that they are not going to be enough older adults to accurately assess the risk of them and the model could end showing that 80yo’s are better drivers than 30yo’s.
You can use regression splines or lowess to locally weight the areas with low data based on what you do know, it keeps your parameter count down but still performs well even at the tails.
I will end up living in the woods at this rate.
Planet Labs saves an image of the world – including whatever woods you’re referring to – at 3-meter resolution every day.
Stay outta my tree!
I still have my 2010 Mazda 3. The only tech it has is Bluetooth connectivity for phone and music and some voice commands for calls.
The day I will change cars will be the day my car completely dies and there’s nothing I can do about it, or it becomes illegal to drive, or it gets wrecked in an accident.
I don’t ever want the new cars. I hate hate hate the stupid touch tablets they’ve put to control everything instead of physical knobs, and now this fucking crap where your car spies on you and rats you out to you insurance company.
They can pry my 2007 Tundra from my cold dead hands.
2008 Crewmax SR5, bought new 12/2007. I feel exactly the same way.
Double Cab 4.7L SR5 (honestly no idea what SR5 even means) 8ft Bed. Bought used in 2011. Only 92k miles so far. Drove it from Philly to Anchorage and lived in Alaska for 3 years. Currently in Massachusetts. Respect.
Mine has like 165k. First vehicle I bought myself new. SR5 is just the middle package. They had the low trim as no named, SR5 then limited.
I got mine from Jim Barkley (brand new). Six hour drive. I drove down there in a 1999 Chevy S10 ZR-2 and traded it in and bought the Tundra. I was there like 30-45 min and I financed it with them. Jim Barkley is gone now, but that was such a pleasurable experience for a car buying experience.
Still love this truck!
Just put a new engine in my 08 sequoia. No new cars for me.
Later model 3 but definitely lower-tech (has the touchscreen nonsense but no internet or anything) and I plan on running it as long as possible lol
I don’t know how to tell you but just because the Car can phone home with cellular - doesn’t mean you will see it as a free Internet Browser.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying tbh.
Anyway I don’t use their GPS and I don’t let it sync contacts or other info. I Bluetooth and run music off the phone locally or my Plex server. It’s from 2016 so I’m fairly certain it doesn’t have the same data back and forth you’re seeing in more current cars. I know it doesn’t collect audio, driving patterns, etc. which is what these new systems are all doing with wild TOS’s you have to agree to, as Mozilla showed us a few months ago.
The dumb infotainment center or whatever has been spotty so I’ve actually been using the aux more lately.
Point is whatever data it’s collecting and sending, which I’m not even entirely sure is happening in any meaningful way especially the way I use it, is not really at the same level we are seeing today.
Do you get updates over the air?
Not that I know of no. For instance, to activate their navigation, you need to buy a $200 SD card. You can’t do anything remotely AFAIK with this car. Even “apps” for listening require them to be installed on your phone so it’s not doing it on its own, it’s using your phone and app and data to make it happen. Without your smartphone it the “infotainment” center is just an info center with FM/AM radio.
I don’t think any of that stuff started until the Mazda Connect app or whatever it’s called. A decade ago (my car is like 8 years old now) a lot of cars were in the “blackberry” phase where it’s not really browsing the internet and everyone was sort of testing new stuff. Now car manufacturers have a lot more sense of how valuable all that data is and they’ve “figured it out,” much to our collective chagrin.
Agreed.
I now need to root my Android and put a new OS so it stops telling Google where I am. I’m slightly afraid as I just want my phone to work when I need it.
I’m sure T-Mobile uses my location data for something too.
Everyone calls me paranoid for even just giving a shit about being spied on. Am I supposed to enjoy getting reamed by the rich?
Kinda like those who choose to be in the Progressive Insurance “Snapshot” program where you install an OBD2 dongle that reports a lot of data about your driving habits back to Progressive in the dim chance you drive so well that they will lower your rates.
Surely theres someone who has a rasberi pi that reports fake data to this thing? Yes, insurance company, I drive like a Grandma. You’re welcome, now give me my discount.
It’s fine till you have an accident. Then your completely fucked.
Those deals, at least over here, are generally aimed at new drivers. I actually agree with them, to a level. It lets the insurance company rapidly sort the safe drivers from the idiots, and so discriminate on prices. It also trains new drivers to be safer. I remember how fearless I was when starting out. The quicker we get new drivers out of that mindset, the better.
I feel like fraud is a big risk for, what, less than $100/mo? You can do better.
They’re literally an insurance company. They have lawyers coming out of their ears.
I never sent this information to insurance companies. Not my problem if some company tracking me gets faulty info.
Is it fraud? Its your car and your data.
Its not fraud for me to change the user agent of my web browser.
Big difference is consent.
