cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
stop paying your taxes too, that shit is funding the genocide
Way ahead of you.
Right behind you (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
She had so many chances to make this election easier. Could have had a Palestinian talk during the DNC, and that would have likely changed this story.
You’d have to be an idiot to make another countries conflict an election issue, when neither candidate supports your side. The fact that neither candidate is pro Palestine, it’s a moot point in terms of the election
Is this a joke? This genocide is as much our “conflict” as it is Israel’s, given that Israel wouldn’t be able to do what it’s doing without massive US financial, materiel, and political support. It’s absolutely an election issue.
You’d have to be an idiot to make another countries conflict an election issue
apply this to Ukraine :)
Sure. Also to every terrorist nation, you murderous fucks supply. Maybe make amends or even so much a apologize for the atrocities and genocides committed by your country before you moralize to the world
Now I’ve lost track of who, or what country, we’re even talking about.
they think im Russian
Biden and Harris went to the right of the right wingers on immigration to defang the repubs, and they threw the election on their own to defang russian election interference agents. Checkmate Russia, you lose again.
Thats not really a problem. The people you are talking to are only talking to themselves in a mirror anyway.
Guess I’m an idiot then. 🤷 I think I can live with that label. its unfortunate harris couldn’t find her moral spine when it mattered but here we are.
So, a conflict where USA supply weapons and all other manners of support used for open genocide (btw illegally, US law declare US need to stop in such case, but Blinken and co blocked it) and is even sending US soldiers to serve as a missile bait, isn’t an issue for US voters according to you?
Nice democracy you think they should have there.
Yeah, earlier in her campaign, I was optimistic that she was just trying not to undermine Biden’s foreign policy, and that she would eventually take an at least slightly more critical position on Israel. So far, though, she’s seems entirely committed to Israel’s escalating violence, and she won’t even make the smallest gesture towards the Palestinian community. I didn’t expect her to denounce Israel, but staying lock-step with Biden on this is looking like political suicide.
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options. Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you. Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options.
People are voting third party because you believe there are only 2 real options.
Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you.
Gotcha, we should vote for Claudia De La Crúz.
Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
Both Trump and Harris are the worst options, that’s why we are going against them.
How is voting for her the best option. Literally all she can do is benefit the Republicans by pulling votes from the Dems. Hell, in Georgia they’ve literally ruled that votes for her won’t be counted even though she’s on the ballot.
Her winning the US Presidential election is less-likely than winning the power all 25 consecutive times by finding the winning ticket on the ground at random truck stops in Malaysia.
context matters. you have no idea what state many people live in. I, for example, live in a reliably blue stronghold. harris will win no matter how I vote. so I don’t vote for democrats when when there is a better option on the ballot.
There is no value in voting for a party that doesn’t support my values/interests. I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed, however I think she likely has a better moral compass and backbone than harris does. I’m giving harris until the end of the week to fix her positions on khan and ideally irsael, but i doubt she will so she wont be getting my vote.
I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed
Which policies do you believe are poorly constructed?
literally every single one she listed… she’s certainly not a unifying figure that socialism needs. she isnt dog whistling shes full throat fog horning and poorly.
The 100 largest corporations in America should be seized from their billionaire owners and turned into public property.
good luck. that’ll take years and won’t fly for a lot of people. nor will it fix the problem. all its doing is triggering an immediate immune response from the unthinking masses. Nor does it address daily issues working american’s are experiencing. I understand what shes going for, but she doesn’t know how to accomplish it effectively.
Overthrow the Dictatorship of the Rich — Build a Democracy That Serves the Working Class
sigh… same problem as above. removing the FBI and NSA will have little to no material impact on working americans.
End the Rule of Money and Lock Up the Corrupt Elite
yeah okay. again get what shes going for but non of that can be accomplished without a supportive congress. What to other throw the system? great I’m right there with you. but have an actual workable plan.
End All U.S. Aid to Apartheid Israel. End the Genocide and Free Palestine & Cut the Military Budget by 90% — Peace, Not War with China & Russia!
sigh. so completely cripple our economy, and trade one relatively friendly genocidal country for two unfriendly genocidal countries. sounds like a great plan.
End the war on black america.
sigh reparations, i get it i really do. but its just another aspect of the race war and sadly black americans are not yet populous enough to pull it off. could just as easily have said ‘build a social safety net to support working americans’
Defend Women’s rights, full equality for lgbtq people
again great cause, but lacks the acume to identify the levers to pull to make it a reality.
Save the planet from capitalism
sigh. again just isolating herself from many american’s who believe in capitalism.
So you just don’t like Socialism, I guess?
incorrect, Im a socialist. she just doesn’t know how to be effective at getting the change we all desire; and I doubt she’ll be good as a president. shes hurt and angry and lashing out. she should run locally for a governor position and prove she knows how to develop and build worker run cooperatives before trying her hand at the national stage.
the first step is following khan by breaking non-competes, then provide support and resources for worker run organizations.
For a few reasons.
-
If you have no red line in the sand, then that gives the Dems free reign to do whatever they please.
-
It helps boost PSL’s platform, which is revolutionary, and therefore important to get new members
-
If she gets more than 5% of the vote, then PSL gets better ballot access and public funding
-
It helps delegitimize the electoral system.
-
“Everyone I disagree with is a Russian bot,” what a classic zinger
This is going to be such a leopard ate my face moment. Do they really think the Republicans are going to do anything? They’re just going to drop some bombs and call it a day. At least with the Democrats there’s a slight chance.
You know, one of the big third party candidates is Jill Stein. If you are one of those pro Palestine supporters who hates Israel… Stein is Jewish. She might be one of those Jews who hates Israel, but she’s still Jewish. I don’t mind her being Jewish, but I do mind her being vaccine skeptical, a Kremlin devotee, among other things.
He hopes that Trump, on the other hand, uses his business acumen to bring down the cost of the products he sells in his store, many of which are imported from overseas. “Trump is not perfect, but we have no choice,” he says.
Hashim’s other major concern is Gaza, where more than 42,000 people have been killed by Israeli attacks. “The No 1 reason [to not vote for Harris] is that she is supporting Israel 100%,” he said.
I don’t understand how someone this stupid is able to run a successful business. The high price of goods now is completely due to republican policies that have taken the brakes off of corporate price gouging and Trump has stated that not only is he 100% supportive of Israel but he will happily supercharge their genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza.
Not just in Michigan ;)
Great so now we can have a more certain Trump presidency. Why limit yourself to just one genocide when you can have this guy in power here too:
“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murder, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now,”
legit question, if arabs love Palestine so fucking much, why don’t they open up their countries’ lands for the creation of a Palestinian state?
It’s THEIR Fault for not voting for the Two Candidates Killing Their Families and instead hoping a Trump Presidency would be a Quicker fall so we can Rebuild in a way that Their Families don’t die!
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil that the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
You always vote against the fascist and the guy who staged a coup. It’s that simple.
It’s more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the “lesser evil” itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
This is limiting the scope of thought to four years.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever, whereas if Trump wins it means four more years of genocide but the democrats will have learnt they cannot ignore the left.
In the short term Trump will be more damaging, but in the long term it is very debatable which is worse.
they exist, but the electoral system is designed to keep them from gaining power. And since (most) states use first past the post, secondary preferences aren’t taken into account, so if you vote third party when you would have voted for Harris otherwise you increase Trumps chance of winning. There’s some argument to be made that voting third party or not voting might influence democrats in the future to change their policy to appeal to those voters but I don’t know how realistic that is.
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You’re not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the “dems need to learn” and that the dems can’t do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when your vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I’m not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
deleted by creator
There is no difference because Harris knows her good little gooses steppers will vote for her no matter what she does or who she kills.
Do you consider war crimes, mass murderand sending in our troops to assist in a far right wing colonial war – all done with our tax dollars to be a “single issue” like… school vouchers or Amtrak funding? It seems a very dishonest or at best an inaccurate method to weigh issues against each other.
single issue voters
the single issue is the eradication of their families and friends
yeah man I wonder why they don’t support that
The single issue: genocide
Why are you sheepdogging for genociders? You have always had the option of saying nothing and educating yourself instead.
deleted by creator
What is more important than supporting and normalizing genocide?
It’s like you’re mentally incapable of reading a comment and responding to the words in it.
I responded directly to what they said re: there being multiple issues they want to weigh. That was their response up me challenging complicity in genocide and asking why the person I was responding to was sheepdogging for genociders. They are trying yo be euphemistic and retreat to the thought-terminsting clichés that reinforce complicity in genocide, which also means avoiding even using the word. So I recontextualized their attempt to decontextualize while still directly addressing it.
Please feel free to tell me which specific parts you would like to see addressed or responded to. I certainly already replied to the first sentence, which was the main point of deflection.
So, you admit to intentionally mischaracterizing what they said and then creating a straw man argument based on that, just so you could win an online argument.
Not that you haven’t been doing that this whole time, but it’s nice for you to admit it.
So, you admit to intentionally mischaracterizing what they said
No? Please do your best to engage with what I say rather than making things up.
deleted by creator
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide
There could not be a candidate this describes more than Harris. You know, from the Biden-Harris administration behind the genocide happening right now. The one supplying bombs to burn refugee children alive. Have you heard their screams?
I am told Democratic voters are empathetic and strategic. But all I see is racist normalization of genocide and toeing the party line.
find new targets for genocide
That’s a Dem specialty! They have a knack for stoking and supporting genocides. Heck, Obama got one started in Yemen. Even NGOs were saying a vhikd was killed every minute for years by this. Why do you think they are so resilient and steadfast against this genocide and Western attempts to free up Zionist shipping lanes? Did you even know what was done to Yemen?
and turn the country into a dictatorship?
Given that the current “system” has you shilling for genocide you should already question whether you live in a democracy.
Though all of this lesser evilism is also premised on nobody remembering that Trump was already president for 4 years and it was basically the same shot as under Biden. In fact, Biden came in from the right, normalizing the pandemic and slashing benefits for the public, then did the usual, “I’m just a widdle president I can’t do nothin’” act when the SC overturned Roe v. Wade. Ah, but now that there is a genocide to support, unlimited billions for Israel, don’t worry he can bypass Congress. Do you see how the system functions? Do you feel enfranchised? How much less enfranchised were you under Trump?
They’re on the same team. Why do you think Harris’ team is celebrate endorsements from Republican war criminals? A human that cared would spit in their faces and announce charges. You are not provided with such an option for your mainstream party “choices”. They laugh at their committed voters, I’ve seen it in person.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
No, that’s the way you are told it works by your masters so that you work for them instead of against them. You’ll notice that I am not voting for any genociders. Did I break reality!? Or just deviate from a focus group-tested party talking point?
well I’m gonna say… if enabling genocide doesn’t make you a single issue voter I suspect you’re morally deficient of an individual. Frankly while genocide is enough Harris has a number of issues you’re free to overlook by claiming people are ‘single issue’ just because a thread is covering a particular topic.
- doesn’t support labor. (won’t commit to keeping khan, will break a strike whenever convenient)
- won’t be effective at reducing inflation/cost of living.
- won’t be effective at humane immigration.
- won’t be effective at health care reform. both at a cost and medicinally via weed/psychedelics legalization.
Just because you’re oversimplifying a complex issue doesn’t make you correct or your choice any better than the alternative.
Unless you’d like to explain how it does…
It is not a complex issue. There is a genocide and there are increasing calls to support those genociders electorally. Instead of supporting genociders, you should oppose them.
Liberals call “issues” complex in order to speak euphemistically about the horrible things they support. They do not actually have an understanding of the alleged complexity, it is just a lazy thought-terminating cliché. When you do understand something, you can discuss it directly. At the moment, you are apparently more afraid of using the word genocide than actually being complicut in it yourself. Is this the “complexity” you are referring to? Your personal discomfort? I suspect so.
Unless you’d like to explain how it does…
Being consistently against genocide is the first step towards actually fighting against it. I have set the bar very low. Can you clear it?
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
Either you’re obviously too ignorant to hold intelligent opinions on this matter, or you’re clearly arguing in bad faith by stating obvious falsehoods.
Why should anyone take you seriously?
Calling it a thousand year conflict is Zionist propaganda. Plain and simple.
Considering that I never said that the Zionist were right, I certainly don’t see how that’s anything but something you just made up to feel better about your lack of position In this argument.
Yeah sure you’re not saying you agree with them, you’re just repeating their racist propaganda that’s all. Totally different.
Its not 1000 years old. Zionists lie about that to make it seem intractable. Arabs and Jews got along fine for the entire 800 year period of the Ottoman empire which ended in the early 1900s. Learn some history so you dont embarass yourself. its 80 years old, since the land theft, murder, and terrorism of the Nakba, done by Israelis.
This isn’t a 1,000 year Middle east conflict, it’s a modern-day Western settler-colonialist project. It’s an ~80 year ethnic cleansing project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialismA 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
I already stated what is not complex. It is that there is an ongoing genocide and that you and others are sheepdogging for the perpetrators. I stated it directly and your response continues this pattern of avoiding even mentioning the term genocide even though it is the topic of this thread and the points I have made.
Re: “1000 year middle east conflict”, this is itself an ahistorical, chauvinist absurdity that papers over the real modern history of colonialism and Zionism and usually has a few dashes of Islamophobia thrown in as well, though yo be honest I would not be surprised if the people sheepdogging for genociders were not particularly familiar with the details of that reference.
More realistically, the “it’s complex” line serves as a way to avoid thinking about or interrogating the topic, it is a way for the ignorant to feel secure despite knowledgeable troublemakers telling them specific but inconvenient things. Like, say, that you should oppose genocide.
Either you’re obviously too ignorant to hold intelligent opinions on this matter, or you’re clearly arguing in bad faith by stating obvious falsehoods.
At the moment I’m trying to navigate middle schooler level chauvinist talking points and asking you to address what I say rather than what you make up. Oh, and to remind you of my main and original point, the one you are afraid to even mention!
Why should anyone take you seriously?
This is Lemmy, there is a limit to which anyone should take anonymous forum comments seriously.
But you should take genocide seriously. If you are not knee-jerk advocating against it, and are instead trying to support its perpetrators, you had better have the very best knowledge and justifications, better than I can even imagine, to make a case for why you support those carrying out the greatest crime.
Everyone should take genocide seriously and that is what people should listen to in my messages. They should also recognize that the responses to my advocacy require dishonest behaviors.
Naturally, as the election approaches, liberals will increasingly panic and try to shut down anything that disagrees with their (pro-genocidal) party line. But I have and will continue to peel those with empathy and honesty off of that track.
Cherry picking a single detail out of a complex situation doesn’t suddenly make it a simple situation. That is logically fallacious. As is the rest of your argument, which is based on that logical fallacy.
And blaming me using disinformation, because I pointed out the fact that your argument is both fallacious and nonsensical, does not make you right either.
Cherry picking a single detail out of a complex situation doesn’t suddenly make it a simple situation.
Is it a “detail” that fails to include very important context (none of which you can seemingly specify) or is it genocide, something with so much weight that you are afraid to even mention it despite my repeated reminders that it is the topic here?
One of the challenges of evasive and bad faith behavior is that the little quips and pretenses can easily become inconsistent.
Anyways, the actual topic is pretty straightforward. There is a genocide. You should not support those perpetrating it and should instead work against them. So far, you have offered no rebuttal to this outside of straw men and vagaries and posturing.
That is logically fallacious. As is the rest of your argument, which is based on that logical fallacy.
Parrots can repeat many phrases they hear, but they don’t understand their meaning.
Logical fallacies are a set of ways a person can make errors in thinking. The whole point of them is that some nerds thought they were common or important enough to deserve a name. Reflexively accusing me of logical fallacies without naming any, right after I explained how you were using one? Obviously schoolyard “I’m rubber you’re gkue” pantomiming. No understanding, no applicability, just defensive posturing.
And blaming me using disinformation
What disinformation? What did I blame you for?
because I pointed out the fact that your argument is both fallacious and nonsensical, does not make you right either.
Can you tell me when I said or implied, “when I use disinformation against you it means I’m right”? I think you are very confused in both thought and language at this point. You’re relying on quips and phrases that simply do not apply.
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
Israel as a settler colonial entity is around 100 years old. Before that, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived in the same area with very little sectarian violence for around 800 years.
Thank you for admitting that. I’m correct, however, the rest is completely irrelevant. We’re not talking about those 800 years.
You’d say “its nuanced” about colonizers killing indigenous tribes and the indigenous tribes fighting back.
No, it’s been a little over a 100 years of Settler Colonialist Zionism. Zionism has not existed for 1000 years.
‘Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History’ by Nur Masalha gives a detailed account of it’s history before British Occupation and ‘A History of Modern Palestine’ by Ilan Pappe gives a detailed account of it’s history since the British Occupation.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
-
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
-
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
-
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
-
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
-
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
-
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
-
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
🏆
No, it’s been a little over a 100 years of Settler Colonialist Zionism. Zionism has not existed for 1000 years.
I never claimed Zionism existed for 1000 years. That’s a strawman argument, and you wasted an awful lot of time typing all that out.
Do you often find that using logical fallacies and disinformation and mischaracterizing what people said to be an effective debate tactic?
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
This is what you said in the context of the current conflict, which is Israel engaging in Genocide of Palestinians. That is a result of Zionism, which is fundamentally a Settler Colonialist Ideology that has only been around for a little over a hundred years, not a thousand.
-
Dude, Palestinians lived largely in peace with Jews in what was called Palestine until WW2. This is not an ancient conflict unless you believe antisemitic propaganda. The state of Israel is compensation for the Holocaust, paid for with land from the Palestinians.
Well no there were Zionist terrorists killing people in that area before World War II. We tend to gloss that over in history though for some reason, maybe it’s because so many people that were targeting were the British and everyone was just kind of okay with it.
The state of Israel is compensation for the Holocaust,
The state of Israel was secured through bribery and a will to try to appease an extremist terrorist group who the UN hoped would settle the eff down if they were given the land they had been killing people trying to steal. They didnt end up appeased, and the world didnt owe them land for the holocaust anyway. They should take that up with Germany and bill them for it, not the rest of us.
If this is a joke, it’s a very bad one. If it isn’t, good luck on pulling your head out of your ass.
This group is the single greatest gift to the 2024 trump presidency and he doesn’t know it yet!
Harris? I agree, she’s torpedoing a very easy campaign.
At least trump will be a great ally to Palestinians!
Course not, the genocidal US Empire needs to be overthrown. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
Cant blame them, Biden\Harris are literally sending Israel the bombs.
Yeah but if you don’t vote Kamala, Trump will hurt Palestinians even harder and it will be your fault 🤡
And Trump will just skip the middleman and bomb Gaza and Palestine himself. You’re talking about the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, after all.
Oh they’re really gonna love how Trump handles Arabs
Strawmen belong in fields, not comment sections.
Also: does every ml user have an allergy to pragmatic problem solving?
“pragmatic” problem solving is killing all undocumented migrants to solve the housing and work shortages in the US.
Pragmatic problem solving was the excuse for the necessity of the Holocaust. Pragmatic problem solving is making black people count as two thirds a white person to appease fascists.
Pragmatic problem solving is a liberal appointing Hitler chancellor so commies don’t get power and Nazis stop doing violence.
Pragmatic problem solving is behind the worst human atrocities. Let’s not pretend it’s ever been good.
No average dem is fantasizing about Republicans hurting people. This is nonsense, pathetic, and textbook straw man, all your word salad doesn’t change this. We get it, you like Trump, stop with all the games.
buddy, half of the comments on this post are libs fantasizing about mass deportations, and acting smug the whole time. they cannot wait to say “I told you so” when the camps get built. stop kidding yourself.
Lol half the comments? Really? I just scrolled and don’t see 1 in 2 comments being about fantasizing about mass deportation. Almost like you’re being just as hyperbolic as the comic is lol.
“We get it, you like Trump, stop with all the games.”
Pot meets kettle. So I guess all of that talk about “strawmen” was just projection. Okay. I see what you did there.
Saying some BS like a group of people fantasizes about people getting hurt, yeah that sounds very on brand for Trump and people who follow him.
Also, assuming who someone is voting for is not a straw man lol, might wanna look up the term. And when someone says being pragmatic is bad, yeah, sounds like a Trump voter. Pragmatic literally means: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations. Look it up.
If you think that’s bad then you’re literally living in a fantasy world of theories and what ifs. Kinda like his tariffs idea or injecting bleach, or a million other stupid ideas he’s had.
I see you are now trying to construct a new straw man. You might want to look up the term “projection.” Go ahead, look it up.
Lightor at this point I dont even need to read your comments, I just read you name and autmatically skip to downvote.
I’m not voting for genocide. In fact I already voted against genocide.
The Dems nor Republicans have a candidate that is against genocide.
So you voted for someone you know won’t get elected. So you’re ok with the worse of the two between Dem and Rep? Because you had a chance to help prevent the worse of the two coming into office and didn’t. Choosing to cast a vote that won’t impact the outcome helps literally no one. The Gaza situation is not all that is happening in the world.
I’m not ever going to vote for a genocide, and there is no moral high ground if you do .
No average dem is fantasizing about Republicans hurting people
You were in this thread though, lmao.
Yah I was, and I’m not fantasizing about hurting anyone.
You absolutely were.
This is an article about why Arab-Americans are abandoning the Democrats for endorsing and materially supporting genocide, and the response is “Trump would be bad too!” Yea, of course he would be, Harris is so bad that she isn’t a solution either.
Also: does every ml user have an allergy to pragmatic problem solving?
What do you mean by this?
Yes, yes they do. Pretty sure it’s either a bot farm or dumb ass undergrads…
Ah yes, Leftists must be naive or bots, there’s no such thing as an intelligent leftist
Lol wait, this was already posted this thread? Is this just a bot account?
You think they’re voting for trump? If so, you’re even dumber than you think they are
I mean, it’s not like there’s any other viable candidate. I don’t like the two party system but it’s what we have and by voting any other way than Harris, it gives advantage to Trump.
Her shitty policies and attitude toward the genocide of people in the Levant is what’s giving trump an advantage!
Her shitty attitude towards people calling on her not to support the genocide is what’s giving trump an advantage.
She had it in the bag when she called him weird but you can always rely on a democrat to steal defeat from the jaws of victory!
And you know for sure that democrats are going to turn on minorities and leftists once she loses the election rather than face up to the fact that they did everything themselves to avoid winning it.
A more accurate metaphor would be if the raft was uninflated and full of holes.
This except the raft has a bunch of holes in it, is covered in blood, and by setting foot in it you are implicitly giving your consent to fund a genocide on the other side of the world, and then the raft sinks anyways in the last panel.
passenger 1 - “Oh crud. Our boat is sinking. We are in great peril indeed.”
captain - “We’re going to be okay everyone, just get into this liferaft.”
Pulls out liferaft with a huge fucking hole in it.
passenger 1 - “Is this the only liferaft we’ve got?”
captain - “Yes, but don’t worry about the hole, it won’t sink and we’ll be fine I promise.”
passenger 2 - “Hey guys, I have a liferaft over here that doesn’t have a hole in it.”
captain - “Guys, that’s not important right now. Our boat is sinking.”
passenger 1 - “Eh, I guess I’ll go in that one.”
passenger 3 - “Sure me too, captain says we should - wait where’s captain?”
Looks up, in the distance sees captain floating away on functional liferaft.
captain - “So long fuckers!”
Passengers board remaining liferaft, liferaft sinks, the passengers die.
Where you fucked up:
passenger 2 - “Hey guys, I have a liferaft over here that doesn’t have a hole in it.”
You can’t reach the other one with no holes.
One of 2 things is happening with this comment.
-
You actually don’t know how FPTP voting works.
-
You’re pretending to not know how FPTP voting works.
Captain represents capitalists falsely promising to fix our problems
Broken liferaft is the false promise (i.e. voting is going to fix our problems despite genocide, imperialism, deporting illegal immigrants, hurting homeless people, fracking, etc)
Fixed liferaft is what actually will save us (i.e. food, housing, healthcare, etc)
While everyone is hyperfocused on who to vote for, the capitalists take the rest of the food/housing/healthcare and everyone else dies.
-
This is question-begging a number of critical elements, e.g. that the “rafts” cannot be influenced by “passenger” input, and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
We can do it too:
You’re in a runaway train accelerating toward a cliff and the break only really stops acceleration, it doesn’t decelerate. You can sit in the engine room and hold down the break, and you’ll live longer, but you aren’t changing the fundamental dynamic of the situation, which ends in your eventual death. Conversely, you can jump off the train, surely injuring yourself, possibly crippling yourself, maybe even killing yourself, but it’s the only potential way to change the dynamic of being doomed to fall off the cliff.
Does this prove anything? No, it’s just a model of how some people think of the problem, not an argument. It would be really obnoxious and disingenuous to present it as an argument.
Maybe we should see if there’s any point of agreement, one step at a time.
Do you agree that either the Dem or Rep nominee will be the next president?
False dichotomy and incorrect question. It doesn’t matter who wins the next presidency. the general outcomes will be the same.
will both candidates break strikes when convenient to their corporate overlords? yes. will both candidates continue to drain our economy by not reforming health care/holding corporations accountable? yes. (as demonstrated by harris’ unwillingness to commit to keeping khan) will both candidates continue to support israel wholeheartedly? yes.
the only different is the speed of the decline. frankly I’m done emotionally suffering because the national democrats are shit people. you’re welcome to your positions and beliefs I just have no interest in supporting them when all they do is cause more harm to my communities. I also live in a blue bastion, harris’ will win here regardless of my actions and my local government will more or less prevent the worst of trumps nonsense for my community.
When I said:
and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
This was me saying “It frames things as though losing the election means that all is lost and there won’t be future elections.”
As I’m pretty sure I explained to you an hour ago in another thread, I think it’s an acceptable loss for the Democrats to lose an election to put pressure on them to change or else to establish that they are more loyal to the US project of Israel than they are to trying to win elections or do what voters want or anything like that.
I don’t proactively want Trump to win, but I find it totally acceptable since what sets him apart from other Republicans is not that he is especially fascist in the substance of what he is likely to do. It might actually be possible to browbeat me if we had a Tom “throne of Chinese skulls” Cotton or someone as the nominee, he actually represents something that could be totalizing to me, but Trump is just kind of a deranged grifter and Vance is a more even-keel grifter.
So to save us both time, no, I don’t think we agree on any points. I wasn’t commenting toward that end, I merely wanted to say that the comic is unhelpful.
Do you agree that theres no excuse possible for aiding in a far right wing genocide?
I will note your liberal dem in this comic also didn’t get in the raft through their own inability to take the correct path regardless of the choices of others. which I think is pretty spot on for individuals like yourself.
I think that’s a statement about how other people’s shitty voting decisions affect everyone.
Believe me, if I could just choose the president (life raft) myself with no other input, I would.
It’s like the trolley problem, except instead of the other track having fewer people, it has more, and it just loops back around to run over the people on the first track anyway. We should have sent the trolley on a completely different route decades ago.
