- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
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“We apologize for the confusion (…)”
We thought removing the git repository that tracked terms of service would make it clear.
Oh it did make everything crystal clear. If one isn’t gullible.
You’d have to be crazy to want to work with this company anymore.
Forget about this being a “video game scene” specific drama. As a vendor, they’ve just fundamentally destroyed any credibility they had with their clients.
Do you want to work for a company that will intentionally sabotage themselves? Probably not.
“We apologize for the confusion (…)”
Sorry your dumb UwU
Whose dumb? Theirs or mine?
Yes
Do not believe their lies. Do not accept their token gestures. Abandon them. Let them burn. If you tolerate this your children will be next. Trust no one.
Great quote there and totally right.
Where is the qoute from?
Manic street preachers : if you tolerate this your children will be next
Developers remain critical of this latest statement from Unity. “There wasn’t any ‘confusion’,” said Trent Kusters of Jumplight Odyssey studio League of Geeks. “In fact, the exact opposite is the concerning issue here; That we all, very clearly, understood the devastating impact and anti-developer sentiment of your new pricing model far better than you ever did (or cared to) before rolling it out.”
That’s the exact point. The apology is a joke.
Indeed. They had the whole chart showing exactly what would be paid by who. Their original post was designed not to be confusing and it wasn’t.
The confusion is that they want more money and are confused why developers don’t want to give them more money.
Good God, what an arsehole.
We apologize for the confusion…
Confusion? No, there was no confusion. You announced a policy that was terrible, but there was nothing confusing about it, it was just stupid. I wasn’t at all confused you condescending twat, I fully understood what was being announced, as did everyone else, hence the backlash.
The article says it best:
Developers remain critical of this latest statement from Unity. “There wasn’t any ‘confusion’,” said Trent Kusters of Jumplight Odyssey studio League of Geeks. “In fact, the exact opposite is the concerning issue here; That we all, very clearly, understood the devastating impact and anti-developer sentiment of your new pricing model far better than you ever did (or cared to) before rolling it out.”
We were confused about how much backlash there would be. We didn’t think it would hurt our bottom line this much. Sorry for the confusion.
We thought you would love to throw money at us!
We apologise for you all being hysterical, and any Angst that may have caused.
Twats.
I don’t think Unity has any chance of healing while that moron is still there. He poisonous.
Sorry you confused greed with annoyance.
You know a significant number of devs will be OK with Unity’s statement and stick with them. Unity won’t learn their lesson. They’ll just be sneakier
Yeah ok. It doesn’t affect me, I won’t be using them, but what other people choose to do is their problem.
They were confused why we didn’t love their amazing decision. Don’t we care about the shareholders?
They are implementing the “Anchor High” plan.
- Come out with a ridiculously high number
- Take the back lash
- Issue an apology, claim you are “listing to the tram, partners, etc” <---- We are here
- Release a “revised” plan, which is really what you wanted all along
- Profit (quite literally)
I’m willing to bet they are angling for an acquisition, and trying to bump up their value to get a higher number.
Precisely what I’m talking about. They can afford to do so, since they lost the trust of the user about 2 statements from the CEO ago.
And not to go too deep into it, but how the hell are you going to create a brand new pricing scheme in only “a couple of days”, without already having a draft of it ready? Don’t you wanna check in with your lawyer? Your CFO? This shit must take more than 2 days to do.
I don’t think they checked with their lawyer before releasing the first one (that had some pretty obviously legally dubious provisions). Why would they start asking the legal team now?
They want apple to buy them. Apple can’t really lean on unreal at this point since the epic lawsuit. So unity is the next viable option. They want apple to buy them and/or they wanted a piece of every download on apples phones/vr.
Apples last announcement is telegraphing a shift towards gaming on some level. Unity is being opportunistic albeit tone-deaf AF.
So maybe now would be a good time to buy stocks?
No, because the entire industry and most of their customers are still pissed off enough at them that it’s still going to have very serious long term effects.
If you look at 10 year investment it might be a good idea to buy stocks now, unless this charade kills the company
That’s my point - I am fairly certain they’ve destroyed any trust and goodwill the industry had towards them, to the extent that I would bet money on Unity folding in a year or two.
The only thing that would restore that trust is for Unity to dump their entire exec team, and they’re not going to do that, because the board and the exec team are all buddies.
I don’t think this is recoverable. They tried a naked cash grab (plus some other sketchy stuff lumped in), it blew up in their faces, and now everyone who does business with them knows that Unity’s leadership sees no issue with unilaterally changing all of their business agreements in a sweeping fashion. That’s not a behavior pattern that will entice other companies and developers to do business with them.
Oh shit, I realised I responded to the wrong message lol. I don’t disagree, but what if their idea would be to sell to another company?
They’re an industry pariah at this point. They’d have to hand out crazy sweetheart deals to get people onboard (which, with the AppLovin context, was basically happening already)… but anyone who takes that deal should ask themselves: “What if Unity decides to change this deal, too?”
‘confusion’. Yeah, right. Not a single person was confused. You went for the cash grab and it blew up in your face.
Now you’re going to go for slightly less cash grab and because it’s ‘better’ and ‘we listened’ everyone is supposed to just accept it. Been here before…
It’s like if I mugged you at gun point and said “give me all your money”, and you said “this is bullshit, I don’t want to give you my money.”
Then I said, “I’m sorry for your confusion, but I’m going to shoot you in the fucking face if you don’t give me all your money.”
They went for a retroactive pricing change.
Imagine that you start a game project (which will cost you years and a lot of $$$ to develop) and at any point Unity just arbitrarilly changes the conditions (which can be of any kind, not just extra charges) that apply to your game, after you’re too far into development to feasibly replace Unity and do so retroactivelly so after your game is already out it also gets impacted by it.
Suddenly a totally viable project might become unviable or, worse, an active drain on your company’s finances or even your own (i.e. your company and even you can go bankrupts), and all of that based on the fickle wishes of a higher up in Unity.
At this point it makes no business sense whatsoever to choose Unity: there is way, WAY, WAY too much risk involved by choosing it (new charges that apply retroactivelly as this one can literally kill your company) and at the same times there are viable alternatives out there without such risks.
For any project not yet deeply tied to Unity, from the day they came up with a retroactive change to their pricing, the obvious, clear as day, choice from a business point of view became to not use anything from Unity, even for shitty shit asset-flipping “near zero investment” projects.
They went for a retroactive pricing change.
Which in some countries could also be illegal.
Can you quickly tell me what’s the applicable jurisdition for this if say, a gamedev company based in Uruguay sells a game made with Unity (HQ US) via Apple Store (HQ US) to a user in China who installs it 3 times?
At the very least it will cost you quite some legal fees to merelly figure out the jurisdiction because there are multiple legal angles to go after this (contract law, intellectual property) which might yield different jurisdictions (maybe it’s contract law and then maybe its the US, maybe Uruguay, or maybe it’s IP law and it’s all about the copy of the game to the device local storage - i.e. the installation - which defines the jurisdiction, making it be China because that’s were the user did it).
Next you’ll have to figure out if it such retroactive pricing changes were legal there or not.
For new projects I don’t think it’s worth it for a small gamedev company to spend time and money pursuing the “let’s clear the legal status of this so that I can use Unity” option rather than the “let’s use something else one”.
It’s really only worth checking companies with existing or advanced projects on top of Unity were the income/potential-income from those projects justifies it (vs the option of just pulling the project out from distribution or redo it).
I mean, sure, eventually somebody will have paid the legal costs of this and maybe its a decision broad enough and in the right jurisdiction for your company and it’s applicable … and then Unity just goes and comes up with some other shit that has to go through the legal rigmarole to figure out if they can.
Meanwhile “Don’t use Unity on any future projects” is a pretty straighforward decision…
Can you quickly tell me what’s the applicable jurisdition for this if say, a gamedev company based in Uruguay sells a game made with Unity (HQ US) via Apple Store (HQ US) to a user in China who installs it 3 times?
Then Urugauay, since the contract for Unity is between Unity and the game studio in Uruguay, and is the game studio that must pay Unity, not the Chinese buyer (not sure if applicable by Uruguay’s law). In every country where you sell something, you need to follow the law applicable to the buyer, not the seller.
If you change Uruguay with Italy (where I live) then it is illegal, for example no matter where the seller has the HQ and no matter where I sell the game. And I suspect in most of EU. If you sell me something then we have a contract, then both of us cannot change it retroactively unilaterally, I am not even sure if it is legal if both of us agree. Many US based company tried and failed.
If Unity pull a stunt like this on an Italian game studio, the studio can simply avoid to pay and if Unity kill the current license agreeement the studio can sue them. Sure, Unity can then refuse to sell new or renew licenses to the studio, but that is another thing, the old license is still valid.At the very least it will cost you quite some legal fees to merelly figure out the jurisdiction because there are multiple legal angles to go after this (contract law, intellectual property) which might yield different jurisdictions (maybe it’s contract law and then maybe its the US, maybe Uruguay, or maybe it’s IP law and it’s the copy of the game to the device local storage i.e. the installation - that is treated as requiring licensing of the Unity IP, and it defines the jurisdiction as China because that’s were the user did it … or maybe the US because that’s what the IP owner is).
True, but that is the cost of doing business in a foreign country. Why did you think Apple (US based) put the USB-C on the new IPhone ? To be nice ? Or because EU imposed it ? Is not this a price for Apple ?
This “cleared up”, next you’ll have to figure out if it such retroactive pricing changes were legal there or not: maybe you’re lucky, maybe you’re screwed.
That is another problem and, at least in Europe, Unity is on very thin ice. From the game studio perpective is a problem only if their local law allow for a retroactive change in a contract, else the new terms are void and Unity can say what they want.
In Europe, if Unity can track retroactively the installations, then they tracked the users and if they (or the game studio ) did not notified the user it is a direct violation of the GDPR and all it need to is just one user that sue them. And before you say something, it is already happened before. The fines are pretty interesting btw…
For new projects I don’t think it’s worth it for a small gamedev company to spend time and money pursuing the “let’s clear the legal status every way Unity can screw me in the future so that I can use Unity” option rather than the “let’s use something else” option.
Completely agree on this.
It’s really only worth checking it for companies with existing or advanced projects on top of Unity were the income/potential-income from those projects justifies it (vs the options of just pulling the project out from distribution or redo it with another framework).
Again, nope. If it is illegal in the studio HQ country, then is not worth checking: the term cannot be changed.
What can happen, in Italy, is that Unity can change unilaterally the contract for the future and in this case the game studio can simply modify the selling price of an already released game or put a adeguate price tag in any future game in a too advanced development stage to be redone with another game engine. And of course change the game engine for all the other projects.
But there is no way that Unity can monetize past installation of a game based on a contract with certain conditions.
Are you a lawyer?
Because if there’s one thing I learned from my own contact with the Law (not being a lawyer myself) is that sometimes it is indeed exactly as it makes logical sense (in which case it would basically be as you describe) and sometimes it’s not and depending in the jurisdiction you might even have to end up in Court to figure it out.
I don’t know about you, but I won’t stake my company’s future on presuming the applicable Law matches common sense, even with the assurances from a non-lawyer on the Internet.
My point being that we won’t be sure until somebody gets legal clarification on this, maybe even gets their day in Court over this, and after that then all of us to whom that legal clarification does apply (and me being in the EU also, it would probably apply to my country as it does to Italy) can rest easy (or not, depending on what the clarification says) … until Unity tries something else.
Meanwhile I’ll keep on slowly decoupling the code from its Unity dependencies on the project I have and trying out Godot and the Unreal Engine, just in case and because I have to, as I pointed out, protect myself from the risk of them pulling some other bullshit in the future.
Even this does get reversed (or shown illegal in the applicable juridiction) and I do end up shipping the project with Unity, I’ll always keep on “looking over my shoulder” with them and this has definitelly made it more likely that I will end up using Godot or Unreal on my next projects, if only because it has pushed me to properly put time aside to seriously try both out and I’m pretty sure they’ll be better than Unity at least for some kinds of game.
I don’t really even trust Unreal until Unity takes a legal hit for this. What’s to stop Epic doing the same thing?
Considering how locked into an engine a project can get, why risk a corporate engine unless you absolutely have to?
That’s not an apology.
And if we’re talking about apologies and corrective action: the only real way forward is a completely fresh executive team at Unity. Anything short of that means they’re simply going to try this all again in a slightly different fashion once focus on their clusterfuck dies down.
The real question is whether or not people will continue to use Unity. Apologies mean less than nothing in a case like this regardless of whether or not they’re sincere. This is a company that’s shown their cards. Why give them business when you can go elsewhere?
Personally, this has made me start looking more into Godot. I’ve got a project I’m going to be working on that I was going to do in Unreal, but this Unity stuff has made me skeptical of tying my creative output to any one company that can’t be easily replaced. Getting that wrapped up with a proprietary platform that comes with licensing that might change just seems like a bad idea now. Maybe Unreal is okay today, but what about down the road? Why start building into a system that there’s no guarantee won’t enshittify a few years down the road?
I’d like to get my major mechanical stuff squared away and develop a visual style and then tell more stories without reinventing the wheel every time. Once I’ve got my assets built on top of an engine, I’d rather add to it over time than arbitrarily scrap it every few years. Updating and refactoring is all well and good, but I’m not in it to code the same system over and over.
That makes Godot look pretty appealing, and any closed source corporate offering look pretty shady.
Shareholders need to demand board change, I doubt it’s entirely on C.
We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback.
Allow me to translate:
We’re now publishing the terms that we were actually going for from the very beginning. We’ve always known that the flaming bag of shit that we laid on your doorstep was unreasonable. If it worked, it worked, but if it didn’t, it can stand in contrast to the new less shit terms that you’re either supposed to agree to or rewrite your whole game. Not like our PR was great before this gambit. What have we to lose?
I mean, they have a lot to lose. There are strong alternatives. Unreal and Godot are at the doorstep. Godot doesn’t take anything at all, Unreal takes, but in a reasonable manner and it’s of course on 3D a lot more powerful and also offers an asset store.
The games already developed and deep into development are unlikely to jump, but future games will have a huge argument against Unity now. Unreal could completely snap their necks now by putting into writing that they never do such move.
Correct. The right course of action would be to backtrack this per download idea completely, fire the person who thought of this, and add a clause on their ToS that such bullshit will never happen again, and that of they broke that agreement, they will refund everyone affected by it.
fire the
person who thought of thisCEO
Reputation is a perishable commodity. It is very hard to replenish it once gone.
Xwitter and Reddit understood it the hard way. Even if Unity goes back to exactly where they were before this ruckus - people will think twice before trusting them again.
I don’t think Xtr and Reddit understood anything
I think they did, it’s just that they are way too egoistic and dick to admit that.
Has reddit actually been negatively impacted by their recent actions?
The negative impact is that we’re here discussing this in the fediverse rather than reddit.
It may be a drop in the bucket for them. But a seed has been planted. And if we care for it right. It will grow eventually.
But a seed has been planted. And if we care for it right. It will grow eventually.
Well put.
I’m not sure they have, there’s plenty complaints from users about the bad mods and so forth, but the numbers the C-level’s look at have probably not changed enough to worry them. Let’s see in a year or two if the user base has changed significantly.
I would say so. Their front page is way different, and, in my opinion, worse now. Not sure if it’s made a noticeable difference to their customer base, but from a consumer standpoint 100%.
This seems to be a case of start with a horrible plan that they know will make everyone angry only to roll it back to a plan that still sucks but isn’t quite as bad to try to reduce the sting. The thing is, I don’t think their customers are that stupid.
They underestimate their customers. They keep forgetting they’re business to business, not business to customer.
Developers are other businesses, even if they’re a business with an employee of one, although often they are small but not tiny teams. The relationship that they have with unity is a business relationship and it can end at any time should that relationship cease to be productive, for we don’t have random undying loyalty to one platform, that wouldn’t be financially sensible.
I hear this accusation a lot, but how many times does it work out for the company? Maybe the second plan doesn’t get any press and that’s proving your point?
Worked with reddit when they hired Ellen Pao as a scape goat to implement harse changes then they rolled it back after to what they wanted
I don’t remember what they were trying to change, what they ended up concluding with and what it was like originally.
Oh, I don’t think it often works out. But a business person can make the data show what they want to do while ignoring what is likely to happen.
“Well I’m sorry that you feel that way.”
That’s how this comes off. The ultimate non-apology. Fuck off, Unity.
Edit: something to consider is that Unity intentionally made this change as terrible as it is so that they could put out this apology, and roll things back to where their main goal was the entire time. It’s kind of like when you list your house for a high price so that it gets negotiated down to the price range you wanted from the outset. Don’t be shocked if Unity changes this a bit but keeps it essentially the same. It means they can then reflect on history and go “hey, remember that time we listened to the developers?” while still fucking them over.
They seem to think we’re all stupid.
That’s not always true. People were claiming the same tactic is what reddit was doing, but they’ve actually stuck with their original pricing.
Well yeah but reddit really just wanted all third party apps gone so that they could force everyone to use their shit app.
hindsight is 20-20. My point is not to jump to conclusions, nobody knows what is going on through their head. They may be really that fucking stupid, as most executive staff tend to be.
Reading this suggests they’re just greedy assholes and nothing more.
This is called the “Door in the face method” of bargaining. Start with a request so high and absurd that you “slam the door in their face” because it’s so absurd.
The next time they try, they’ll come back with an offer that sounds far more reasonable than the original request. Since you’re still primed with the previous context, your brain makes it sound less bad than it probably is ("At least it’s not the first offer!). You’re more likely to accept after this.
The opposite technique is called “foot in the door”, start with a small request (get your foot in the door) and then increase the ask after the small request goes over.
TIL. Now I know how to refer to those methods. Thanks!
Anyone who still uses Unity for their new projects after this would have to be completely stupid. Of course they’ll jack up the pricing again as soon as they can.
It wasn’t that they increased prices, they added new fees to things without notice, breaking some business models entirely.
They’ve only backed down on fees for reinstalling games after it was pointed out you could trivially cost a developer millions of dollars by running an install/uninstall script on a loop.
Some groups have invested a lot of time and money into a product based on Unity.
Let me introduce you to the concept of sunk cost.
In economics and business decision-making, a sunk cost (also known as retrospective cost) is a cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered.
The money already spent cannot be gotten back. Spending more continuing to develop using Unity instead of cutting your losses and moving on is a fools game.
I’m generally a bit weary of the sunk cost fallacy being absolute.
I think, in most cases it will be though. Furthermore, I think a developer needs to do a cost analysis to know for sure. They should include the consideration that if Unity get away with this AND it makes them more money, they will gouge for more.
For any new developer, this has to be a huge red flag.
Many of these groups are small indie companies or single individuals, with limited money. This is more an all in scenario then sunk cost.
I am not saying it is an easy or pleasant decision.
Many of these groups are small indie companies or single individuals
And they are the people who will be least able to afford this price increase or the next or the next.
It sucks but that is the reality.
Cut your losses and move on.
If I were a single indie dev with a game that was 90% complete in Unity, I think it would be fair to myself to say “well, this will be the LAST game I build in Unity”.
It would be important to see if the changes would bankrupt you and also consider the possibility that the pricing gets even worse on a moment’s notice as they have already proven they will screw you over. Finishing the game could be worse than starting from scratch if they pull this shit again.
A lot of developers have really tight profit margins and/or their current projects heavily rely on what Unity provides. “Cutting their losses and move on” would mean bankruptcy. They might be able to switch to other engines in the future but right now leaving Unity behind is not a valid decision for them.
I am not saying it is an easy or pleasant decision.
I spent 15 years working in the bankruptcy and insolvency industry. I have seen this sort of situation literally 100s of times.
Staying with Unity will just mean going broke over a longer time frame and after wasting more money.
And I work as a software developer. You can’t just suddenly leave the software behind your business is based on. For a lot of VR or WebGL related Companies there is no alternative to Unity. Also they are not broke right now and most likely won’t be next year because of Unitys policy changes. Most devs won’t be affected at all. Why just give up your hole business now because there might be problems in the future? Staying with Unity now gives us time to change the business model or find another technology.
I read it, it’s clearly not an apology. Companies don’t ever apologise. Ever.
Nobody in charge there is sorry whatsoever, they’re just looking out for their wallets.
They’re busy trying to figure out the best way to spin this to get what they want. That’s it.
Dominos apologized for having shitty pizza and using misleading product photos, then improved their quality and nearly doubled their market share.
I’m sure it was motivated by profit and PR, but that doesn’t change the fact that it had all the hallmarks of a genuine apology.
That really upset me. Domino’s was my favorite pizza, but then after they changed it. I don’t like it anymore. ☺️
Customer taste preferences are definitely odd. I liked their pizza before the change, and really liked it afterwards.
Nothing short of a full reversal and Unity’s entire board standing down would restore the goodwill they burned.
They don’t really need the goodwill; at least, the current board doesn’t need it. The amount of lock-in a game engine has on a game being developed with it is staggering. Game devs already using Unity, or at least making assets for Unity, are going to finish the projects in Unity.
The next gen won’t be using Unity though, but the current board will have picked all the pockets they need to pick by then, and be retired on an island with their grift-money.
They really need to make it easier for retail investors to vote, there is no reason it couldn’t all be done online. But I get like 20 different packets I need to mail back in? Most people won’t ever take the time for that.
Why would they do that? They don’t want you to vote.
And even then people will be keeping a wary eye on them. Same thing happened with Wizards of the Coast a while ago. It’s good to see that these companies can still be forced to back off, though.
