Israel formally declared war on Hamas on Sunday, setting the stage for a major military operation in Gaza as fighting rages on Israeli soil. The declaration comes after Hamas, an Islamist militant group, launched a surprise assault this weekend that has so far killed over 600 Israelis.
Saturday was the deadliest day in decades for Israel and came after months of surging violence between Palestinians and Israelis, with the long-running conflict now heading into uncharted and dangerous new territory. Questions remain over how the Israeli military and intelligence apparatus appeared to be caught off guard in one of the country’s worst security failures.
Over 400 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza as Israel responds with airstrikes in the densely-inhabited enclave. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed retaliation, warning his country would take “mighty vengeance” and was readying for “a long and difficult war.”
He urged Palestinians living in Gaza to “leave now.”
Okay “Bibi”? Where are they supposed to go? Are you going to let Palestinian civilians enter Israeli territory? Is the border crossing with Egypt open? Will Egypt let them in? Or do you just want to say this so the thousands of dead civilians get blamed for not leaving?
They’ve been pushed to evacuate to shelters further south from Gaza, which is kind of the only option aside from Egypt opening up. Given that this is all caused by Palestinian terrorists entering Israel, I don’t think anyone can blame them for not opening up their border to let more in
And obviously there’s plenty of innocent civilians who could be admitted no problem, but Hamas is still the governing party with majority support and would undeniably use that as an opportunity to sneak more militants in
Bro you know they told a bunch of people to shelter in the city center and then bombed the city center right? There’s at least a dozen reports of similar that very definitely seen credible.
I’ve seen this on lemmy, but is there a real source?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move
All Jazeera on the strike, no mention of the message from the IDF though: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/we-will-never-be-safe-a-day-of-bombing-in-gazas-jabalia-refugee-camp
Is the border crossing with Egypt open? Will Egypt let them in?
Honestly, what’s up with Egypt? Just reading comments one could get the impression Gaza was entirely encircled by Israel. But Egypt is mostly Muslim, too? And shares a 12km border with Gaza.
Goes on to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_border
Ok, I’m at a loss.
Gaza was occupied by Egypt, then by Israel.
Israel is building a steel wall near the Gaza-Egypt border and demolishing homes while fighting terrorists.
Egypt is building a steel wall near the Egypt-Gaza border and demolishing homes while fighting terrorists.
Either way, it seems Egypt is also not an option.
Egypt was the first of the Arab countries to make peace with Israel (tired of getting their asses kicked). They tend to cooperate quite a lot with Israel with respect to the border checkpoints, blockade, etc. My question about it was semi-rhetorical as I know Egypt probably isn’t going to let a flood of Palestinian refugees in.
Look up Black September and what’s happened when Palestinians were allowed into Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Gaza gets called an “open air prison” and Israel gets blamed, but they are there because no one else will have them
If people actually cared about the Palestinian civilians, they would have been encouraging them to make peace.
Instead, for decades people have been cheering on their terrorism as if their indiscriminate killing of Jews was justified.
FWIW I agree that the Palestinians haven’t been trying for peace, but at the same time, Israel hasn’t really been serious about keeping the peace either. The whole thing is a mess and each side can go on listing grievances and doling out recriminations, but more violence solves nothing.
Historically, violence has solved a lot of things. Notably the civil war and WWII, which ended slavery and Nazis, respectively.
And Israel kicking their aggressive neighbors’ asses as solved the problem of them worrying about their existence.
And violence against terrorists has greatly reduced their ability to hurt Israel in the long run.
I’d argue that history has shown that violence has been working out pretty well for the Israelis.
Now, the Palestinians on the other hand… They never take out military targets, only civilians, which does nothing to weaken Israel, and only strengthen’s Israel’s resolve.
I think it’s clear that the Palestinians are the ones who need to take a note from Martin Luther King or Gandhi about the benefits of passive resistance.
Nice b8 m8
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Way to go getting angry at random people on the internet.
Just as an fyi the US has never officially ended slavery and it is in fact enshrined in the bill of rights.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
From all the nations in the world one would expect that Jews should have learned that being an oppressor is not a recipe for peace.
At the end of the day all comes to politics and media propaganda on both sides. Both sides think they are morally right, but the truth is that neither is and that in most cases innocent civilians are suffering the most as a result. Really sad!
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Now what in the goddamn fuck does the jews have to learn from the nazis? What are you talking about man?
Well instead of learning that say oppression of an entire peoples is bad, they’ve gone and done exactly that.
I despise the government of Israel, and everyone who supports it, but killing civilians is not acceptable. I don’t care about dead military personnel, soldiers are a legitimate target, but civilians? Th fuck, Hamas, THE FUCK.
This is what Hamas is, what they believe, what they do. They’re religious extremists who want genocide, and the only thing that’s stopping them is their physical inability to make it happen.
Tbf it is also what israel is doing in retaliation. Both sides are absolutely terrible
They’re going to eliminate the threat. Which is going to mean hundreds or thousands of deaths. But Hamas knew that. They hide behind civilians to try to make Israel kill them, so they can get more recruits. It’s an intentional strategy. I’m not really interested in people both sidesing this. It’s a dishonest tactic intended to excuse the actions of monsters.
I have many criticisms of Israel, but they do not wish a genocide. Hamas does. There is no both sides. Hamas must be eradicated, and if the Palestinians won’t do it, Israel will, and the Palestinians in Gaza will have no one to blame but themselves for all the pain that process will involve.
In the same breath you’re expecting Israel to cause thousands of civilian deaths you talk about how it’s wrong to excuse the actions of monsters. At best we can hope the “kills thousands of civilians” is bundled up in your tidy “I have criticisms”.
Hamas is ultimately causing those deaths by forcing the war and then hiding among civilians. It’s unfortunate that Israel doesn’t have magic powers and cannot eliminate these monsters without civilian casualties, but the only way for the Palestinians in Gaza to be free from threats caused by Hamas is to kick Hamas out.
Shit sucks, I get it, but life is a bitch and if you support terrorists you can’t be surprised if the people they attack don’t just bend over and take it up the ass.
Shit sucks, I get it, but life is a bitch and if you support terrorists you can’t be surprised if the people they attack don’t just bend over and take it up the ass.
The exact same words could be applied to Israel.
Nah. They don’t support genocidal terrorists. If Israel wanted a genocide against Palestinians, it would happen.
it doesn’t seem like you know what criteria makes something a genocide. Either that or you are just bias.
but they do not wish a genocide
In a country with mandatory military service, I disagree that soldiers are a legitimate target as a blanket statement. As the rich and powerful wage wars, it’s the poor and those with limited options who die.
In the same vein, would that not make all Israeli citizens (except those under 18) semi legitmate targets since they’re trained military personal and potential combatants?
That’s what I’m talking about. They don’t get a choice. They are required to train. I think that’s disingenuous to say they are guilty by what is simply existing there.
I’d say the same if true for the other side about mandatory military service.
Shouldn’t we put the onus of responsibility on Israeli’s leadership and all that support this kind of ruling which blurs the lines between civilian and combatant?
It doesn’t help that Israel uses its military to protect and bolster settlers in plain clothes as they commit terrorism against the indigenous populations. In a sense, Israel is using its noncombatant civilian population as a “human shield” as sorts because they know that Palestinian resistance groups lack the luxury to sift through potential targets because time and technology is limited, and the risks are sky high. Perhaps, this was done by design to force everybody to have a stake in the conflict, whether they wanted to or not.
With the acknowledgement that the current attacks are mostly along the Gaza border, where do the West Bank settlers fall in that dichotomy? Because they’re not just passive citizens of an oppressive nation, they’re very much a participant in the oppression. And on the other side, military service in Israel is compulsory. There are soldiers who didn’t want to be soldiers and think occupying the West Bank is wrong that are in that set of legitimate targets. Maybe it just sucks to be them and they should have tried harder to pursue a non-military service option, but it’s not an easy sort where uniform = agent of oppression and civilian = neutral third party.
Settlers moving into occupied territories blur the line. They are neither fully civilian, nor clearly military. Something in between. They fulfill a strategic role, following and protected by armed forces. They also fulfill a strategic role for the negotiation table. And I guess they all know they run a greater risk, if alone for being closer to the frontlines.
The military is the main tool of oppression and as such is a valid target. The individual soldier might not be the issue but the military in its entirety. Of which said soldier is a part of. The individual soldier simply doesn’t matter. And that has been the case in every war that was ever fought. The individual does not matter.
Seems like the Israeli military is a good shield against people fighting “oppression” by slaughtering random innocents at a music festival and stating their goal as eradicating all Jews from the “river to the sea.”
Well, this sucks
The only truth here
It’s hard to believe all of the 400 deaths in the immediate reprisals were military casualties.
Killing civilians just stokes the war engine, driving recruitment up on the military, perpetuating the cycle.
Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel, we can’t make peace with Hamas. Driving the population into supporting Hamas is going to extend the conflict. Giving people better options and hope then Hamas is required for some stabile solution. (Not peace, to have peace people need to be free)
Palestinians voted Hamas into power. They did this to themselves.
After decades of terrorism not working, they opted for more terrorism.
Winning hearts and minds means we have to try to understand why the average person thought Hamas was their best option, and giving them better options.
Also your logic is inconsistent. Palensteniens did this to themselves, so Palestinien civilian deaths are ok and unavoidable… that logic also works if you reverse the names.
So either killing civilians is bad and nobody should do it, or killing civilians is acceptable… both sides have to be measured by the same metric, you can’t have both.
The problem with that argument is that you’ve completely removed intent from it.
Hamas INTENDS to murder innocent civilians… Hamas INTENDS to use civilians as human shields seek that any retaliation will get them killed.
Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to minimum civilian casualties, calling ahead to give I people a chance to evacuate military targets before demolishing them.
So by all means, measure the same metric: intent
Intent is interperative and very hard to prove, we can measure non-combatant deaths. If a building is bombed to kill a single solider does it matter if there are 99 non-combatents in the building? What if the wrong building was hit and no soldiers die?
Air raid reprisals by their very nature will have civilian collateral, explaining to people that these civilian deaths are ok but not opposing civilian deaths… is not going to erode support for Hamas.
There used to be a military doctrine that all able bodied people of fighting age were legitimate military targets, the intent isn’t to harm civilians but to diminish military man power reserves. Does that makes it ok to kill civilians who are potential soldiers? If that’s ok, then a dance party is filled with military candidates as well as a refugee shelter…
There are no winners when we say civilian deaths are ok for me but not for thee. Civilians should be able to opt out of fighting… by fleeing to safety…
Intent isn’t hard to prove at all.
Hamas expressly and proudly states is trying to kill Israeli civilians.
Israel has very openly and transparently shown that time and again they give civilians warnings ahead of time that buildings are being targeted and they are given time to evacuate.
This isn’t a mystery.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-8-children-u-s-envoy-arrives-n1267490
Clearly the warning and timing has some flaws…
Much like the US, when Israeli soldiers and LEO fuck up I’m not convinced they’re held properly accountable. The official purpose isn’t to murder civilians but that only holds water if there’s accountability.
I don’t disagree.
On the other hand, Palestinian police make literally zero effort to reign in their own terrorists.
Whose soil? The soil that was handed to the Zionists by the British? Or the soil that the Zionists violently forced people off of to form a country on stolen land?
Ah yes, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria have no blame for this situation. It’s not like there was a major international body that attempted to create borders and one side agreed to and the other side attempted to exterminate the other in a belief they could win a war, then attempted again a few decades
A party that should be holding the major bag is the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Hamas is a major wing of their organization and yet, they keep the border closed. They could set up a major airport in Rafah and open trade routes into Gaza. Israel would have no say, but they don’t.
The Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t hold power in Egypt, a military dictator does. Egypt cooperates with Israel on most security matters concerning Gaza, and events of the past few days have shown why. They don’t want extremists running around their country either.
The soil of the sovereign state of israel.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Saturday’s shock attacks by Hamas led to the deadliest day in decades for Israel and come after months of surging violence between Palestinians and Israelis with the decades-long conflict now heading into uncharted and dangerous new territory.
Netanyahu announced Israeli forces have started an “offensive formation” which will “continue without reservation and without respite until the objectives are achieved.” Among the decisions made by the cabinet is to stop the supply of electricity, fuel and goods to Gaza.
The highly coordinated assault, which began Saturday morning, was unprecedented in its scale and scope and came on the 50th anniversary of the 1973 War in which Arab states blitzed Israel on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar.
“We had no warning of any kind, and it was a total surprise that the war broke out this morning,” Efraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad, Israel’s Intelligence Service, told CNN.
“This Iron Dome is being fired up all around us right now, it’s illuminating the sky here,” said CNN’s International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson in Zikim, Israel, referring to the Israeli rocket defense system.
On Saturday he tracked her phone and saw it was located in Gaza; later that day he recognized her in a viral clip of people loaded into the back of a truck flanked by Hamas militants.
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